[BTS] SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[bcool]

I think we should disband 3 or 4 muskets in Gandhi's lands. They are not going to make the difference in either war and are costing us at least 3 gold/turn each.

[bcool]

I should be able to put a good amount of time into the game this week if shuyhe finishes his turn today.
I wouldn't be able to play Thursday, but every other day I could put in 3-4 hours and then lots of time Friday/Saturday if necessary.

[bcool]

We have to be at peace on the turn our space ship lands. That means that we have 12 (11? 10?) turns to do all of our warring. Gandhi, Churchill and Stalin will be easy. Roosevelt's units won't cause too much trouble, but the fact that he has 13 cities spread out on our land mass and two islands will make it a logistical nightmare, shuttling troops and workers around. Plus we need to build most of the units and many of the workers that will do this work while at the same time building our space ship.

If we can fit in a few spy builds too, setting up city revolts in Roosy's lands would also go a long way to making that war go faster.

[Mitchum]

Originally Posted by shyuhe

So I did the math out, and this is what it looks like:

Superconductors(1)—artillery(1)—rocketry(1)—satell ites(2)—fiber optics(2)—fusion(2)—composites(2)—genetics(2)
Siberia builds Apollo(4; can maybe do 3 turns with good overflow + an additional shop or two)—wealth(1)—aqueduct (1, for overflow)--engine(4)—stasis chamber(3, should be able to do 2 with chops + overflow).
Hammer city builds –wealth(1)—overflow building--engine (6)
Bahamas builds docking bay (8)
Rheims builds thruster(4)—casing(4); hire specialists to hit 86 base hammers
Orleans builds thruster(4) – casing (4); terraform so that it has 86 base hammers
Hastings builds thruster(4)— casing(4); terraform so that it has 86 base hammers
Bermuda builds thruster(4) – casing (4); hire citizens and terraform to hit 86 base hammers
Moscow builds thruster(4) –casing(4)
Bcool island builds life support (5)
Cockpit can pretty much go anywhere that can build it in 8 turns…

Can we really have this many cities building space ship parts instead of wealth and still keep the research slider up and hit the tech dates you've shown? That seems like a tall order. That is why I was thinking to spread the parts around a bit more. Could you have the cities building a thruster and casing just build one or the other and get 5 more cities to build the other part?

Also, it looks like you have Siberia's build queue all planned out but an RI needs to be slotted in there after Apollo somewhere.

[Mitchum]

Originally Posted by bcool

I think we should disband 3 or 4 muskets in Gandhi's lands. They are not going to make the difference in either war and are costing us at least 3 gold/turn each.

3 gpt isn't going to change the game from a economic standpoint this late in the game. However, those 3 to 4 muskets could be shuttled over to Roosevelt if they aren't needed for Gandhi. I think we'll take Gandhi's two cities in 1 or 2 turns and then most of our vetran units on his island can head north in the boats we have in the area.

[shyuhe]

Originally Posted by Mitchum

Can we really have this many cities building space ship parts instead of wealth and still keep the research slider up and hit the tech dates you've shown? That seems like a tall order. That is why I was thinking to spread the parts around a bit more. Could you have the cities building a thruster and casing just build one or the other and get 5 more cities to build the other part?

Also, it looks like you have Siberia's build queue all planned out but an RI needs to be slotted in there after Apollo somewhere.

We can spread them out if you want - the thrusters can go in slower cities, which would allow the bigger 5 cities to continue wealth/research. Those 5 are going to be the ones that we'll want to use for casings though.

I'll have a PPP through rocketry up shortly, unless you guys want me to go longer.

[bcool]

I don't think we are going to redline all of roosy's units with artillery. roosy will have at least a few machine guns. I really don't think the muskets are going to do anything useful against him. Unless we are planning on upgrading them.

[bcool]

Superconductors(1)—artillery(1)—rocketry(1)—satell ites(2)—fiber optics(2)—fusion(2)—composites(2)—genetics(2)
Siberia builds Apollo(4; can maybe do 3 turns with good overflow + an additional shop or two)—wealth(1)—aqueduct (1, for overflow)--engine(4)—stasis chamber(3, should be able to do 2 with chops + overflow).
Hammer city builds –wealth(1)—overflow building--engine (6)
Bahamas builds docking bay (8)
Rheims builds thruster(4)—casing(4); hire specialists to hit 86 base hammers
Orleans builds thruster(4) – casing (4); terraform so that it has 86 base hammers
Hastings builds thruster(4)— casing(4); terraform so that it has 86 base hammers
Bermuda builds thruster(4) – casing (4); hire citizens and terraform to hit 86 base hammers
Moscow builds thruster(4) –casing(4)
Bcool island builds life support (5)
Cockpit can pretty much go anywhere that can build it in 8 turns…

Apollo in 3 turns is tight in Siberia
T237
Rock&Roll started (0/800) + 471 (base 114)
T238
Rock&Roll (471/800) +342 (base 114)
T239
Research Institute (0/250) +372 (4 OF base and 120 base hammers since pick up 3 engineers with happiness)
T240
Apollo started (0/1600) +640 (40 OF base + 120 base hammers * 4)
T241
Apollo (640/1600) +480 (120 base)
T242 (1120/1600) +480 (120 base)
T243 (Apollo finished but without any OF) (wealth or buildings for OF)
T244 (wealth or buildings for OF)
T245 (wealth or buildings for OF)
T246 (fusion expected so start Engine 1600) (128 base with 2 more workshops) *3.5 bonus (with RI) +448 (+up to 444 OF)
T247 892/1600 engine
T248 1340/1600
T249 53 OF into building for OF for statis Or wealth
T250 Stasis chamber started 0/1200 +633 (53 OF + 128 base) * 3.5
T251 633/1200 (+448 base) chop (44 *3.5) 154 (total +602)
T252 launch

Or 3 chops into Stasis Chamber on T250 (44*3*3.5 = 462) and maybe 100 OF from building on T249 gives us 798 + 462 chops for Stasis Chamber finish in 1 turn

[mdy]

We could just over run the bulk of Americas cities with modern armour and forget about slow moving artillery, marines can take out the peripheral cities-I see no need for muskets now except as city Garrisons, and to take the Indian cities.

[bcool]

I agree 3 muskets disbanded this turn gives us 9 gold / turn * 13 turns = 117 gold

This is equal to 2 wealth building turns for a mediocre city or 1 wealth building turn for a decent city.

Could shave a turn off a part.

[babybluepants]

b:g ratio = 1.22 right now. I'm just curious about running Eng vs Sci. Take Haiti:
Eng = 2hpt * 2 * 1.22 + 3bpt * 1.75 = 4.88 + 5.25 = 10.13
Sci = 6bpt * 1.75 = 10.50
Close enough. In Chengdu, for instance, Eng is clearly correct.

Originally Posted by shyuhe

Superconductors(1)—artillery(1)—rocketry(1)—satell ites(2)—fiber optics(2)—fusion(2)—composites(2)—genetics(2)
Siberia builds Apollo(4; can maybe do 3 turns with good overflow + an additional shop or two)—wealth(1)—aqueduct (1, for overflow)--engine(4)—stasis chamber(3, should be able to do 2 with chops + overflow).
Hammer city builds –wealth(1)—overflow building--engine (6)
Bahamas builds docking bay (8)
Rheims builds thruster(4)—casing(4); hire specialists to hit 86 base hammers
Orleans builds thruster(4) – casing (4); terraform so that it has 86 base hammers
Hastings builds thruster(4)— casing(4); terraform so that it has 86 base hammers
Bermuda builds thruster(4) – casing (4); hire citizens and terraform to hit 86 base hammers
Moscow builds thruster(4) –casing(4)
Bcool island builds life support (5)
Cockpit can pretty much go anywhere that can build it in 8 turns…

Basically, we can't build casings faster than in 4 turns, and we can't build thrusters faster than in 4 turns. So unless we can trim the research time needed for either satellites, fiber optics, or fusion to 1 turn, there is no point in building excess RSI's since we'll be production capped. That means we would need to hit a bpt of about 7000 and overflow another 3000 beakers or so.

I think many RIs would pay off.
Example: Guangzhou
Base research = 82bpt
RI = 20bpt (25% bonus) + 24bpt (2 Sci @ 300%) = 44bpt --> Pays off 250h in 5.6t

We can finish research faster than 13t, IMO. We have Eco already, which would typically be last. So, the bottleneck is Composites. I was thinking we would push hard through that, and then have 10+ cities doing the smaller parts in 4-5t. A number of cities would need some OF going for that, which could be generated by RI builds. Fish and Canterbury have circa 75 base hammers. GP Farm could have 90+, but that obviously requires a lot of worker turns which we don't seem to have lined up. London and Guangzhou are just under 70, IIRC, which requires a 62h OF going.

I was also thinking we could do Engines in Moscow and Hammer, and have Siberia finish both Docking Bay and Stasis Chamber. Not sure if that's any better, though. Edit: or Docking Bay in Moscow - it has more base hammers than Bahamas in any case.

[babybluepants]

I don't mind disbanding some muskets.

[bcool]

Example: Guangzhou
Base research = 82bpt
RI = 20bpt (25% bonus) + 24bpt (2 Sci @ 300%) = 44bpt --> Pays off 250h in 5.6t

Research bonus in Guangzhou is 200% with RI but your numbers are right. I agree we should definitely examine each city for the highest pay off cities and prioritize wealth/builds empire wide.

[Mitchum]

Originally Posted by bcool

I don't think we are going to redline all of roosy's units with artillery. roosy will have at least a few machine guns. I really don't think the muskets are going to do anything useful against him. Unless we are planning on upgrading them.

We'll be running 100% gold after launch, so I was assuming that we would be able to afford to upgrade all attack units, no? Them we can use our hammers to crank out new units and workers.

Edit: I seem to be in the minority here after reading further. I'm fine either way.

[bcool]

Yes but 117 gold over the next 13 turns is worth more than 3 more units after launch. We should be able to massively whip units after launch. In addition to upgrading some.

[Mitchum]

Example: Guangzhou
Base research = 82bpt
RI = 20bpt (25% bonus) + 24bpt (2 Sci @ 300%) = 44bpt --> Pays off 250h in 5.6t

Originally Posted by bcool

Research bonus in Guangzhou is 200% with RI but your numbers are right. I agree we should definitely examine each city for the highest pay off cities and prioritize wealth/builds empire wide.

The picture is actually quite complex. The RI does break even in 5.6t, but how long does it take to build it? And, if Guangzhou is not a space ship building city, how will building an RI here instead of wealth affect our slider?

In general, is it better to drop the slider as required and build all RIs immediately so that we get the use of them as soon as possible? Or is it better to stagger them so that we can keep the slider at 100%? Or is anything fair game as long as we get Rocketry in 3 turns?

[shyuhe]

Moscow:
Build wealth(1). RSI(1). Wealth(3).

Fish:
Build wealth(2). Observatory(1). RSI(1). Wealth(1). Pop GM in 2 turns.

Siberia:
R&R(2). RSI (1). Apollo(4).

Pigs:
Build wealth/research.

GP Farm:
Build wealth/research. Make sure it pops GPP@3300.

Cuba:
Build wealth/research.

Bahamas:
Build wealth(1). RSI(2). Wealth/research until SS parts. Will pop GSpy/GE/GP on T+10 for 3000 GP

Bermuda:
Wealth(1). RSI (1). Wealth/research until SS parts.

Rheims:
Build wealth(1). RSI (1). Wealth/research until SS parts.

Bananas:
Build workers (10) for various terraforming tasks and Roosie campaign.

Paris:
Build wealth/research(2). RSI(2). Then wealth/research.

Kamchatka
Build workers (1 each, x2). Then wealth/research.

Orleans
Wealth(1). RSI(2). Then wealth/research until SS parts. Mine and road aluminum in 2 turns.

Chengdu
Wealth/research.

Bcool island
Wealth(1). RSI(1). Then wealth/research.

Shanghai
Wealth/research(2). RSI(2).

Crabbes
Wealth/research(2). RSI(3).

Beijing
Wealth/research(2). RSI(2).

Guangzhou
Wealth(2). RSI(2). Then wealth.

Nanjing
University(1). Wealth(1). RSI(3). Then wealth.

Hammer City
Eiffel(2). RSI(1). Wealth/research until SS parts.

Tours
Wealth/research.

Haiti
Wealth/research(2). RSI(3).

Hastings
University(1). Theater(1). RSI(1).

Nottingham
Library(1). Factory(2). Wealth/research.

York
Observatory(1). University(2). Wealth/research.

Oxford – needs mining
Observatory(1). Wealth(1). RSI(2?).

Newcastle
Library(1). Wealth.

Iron Spice
Wealth.

Mitchum’s Oasis
Wealth.

London – hire another priest
Wealth(1). RSI(1?).

Canterbury
University(1). Wealth until RSI is a one turn build.

Warwick
Wealth.

Steam
Wealth.

Rostov
Library(1). Wealth.

Yaroslav
Library(1). Wealth.

Yekaterinburg
Library(1). Wealth.

Jamaica
Wealth.

Vijay
Library(1). Forge(4). Then workers.

Agra
Workers.

Delhi
Courthouse(1). Library(2). Barracks(2). Then workers.

Patali
Workers

Bombay
Workers

Calcutta
Workers

Yakutsk
Granary(1). WB(1). Library(1). Wealth (or maybe a settler for a mining resource?).

Also, note that I forgot fission from the earlier tech list Put it after rocketry so that we can trade through ecology sooner with Roosie.

Also, sell extra resources for gpt and gift ecology techs to Roosie. The main point of the PPP is to build as many RSI as possible while not dropping from 100% research if possible - that's why I'm cycling the RSI builds to a slightly less than optimal order. Hopefully the staggered builds will allow us to do one turn researches for artillery--rocketry--fission (can't do the math...).

x-post with Mitchum.

[Mitchum]

Originally Posted by bcool

T250 Stasis chamber started 0/1200 +633 (53 OF + 128 base) * 3.5
T251 633/1200 (+448 base) chop (44 *3.5) 154 (total +602)
T252 launch

Or 3 chops into Stasis Chamber on T250 (44*3*3.5 = 462) and maybe 100 OF from building on T249 gives us 798 + 462 chops for Stasis Chamber finish in 1 turn

So, should we plan on 3 chops in Siberia to finish the Stasis Chamber in 1 turn and figure out how to finish all other parts on T151? Sounds like a good goal to me, although I'm not sure if it's possible.

We may need a lot of workers to terraform cities to increase their hammer output. In a pinch, citizens produce 1 base hammer and could just push us over the edge in a city or two...

[Mitchum]

Originally Posted by shyuhe

Pigs:
Build wealth/research.

In general, shouldn't we only build wealth at this point unless we absolutely have to build research to finish Fission ASAP? With more gold in the bank, we can afford to build more RIs simultaneously or we could start some slower cities building their space ship parts a turn sooner.

Originally Posted by shyuhe

Also, note that I forgot fission from the earlier tech list Put it after rocketry so that we can trade through ecology sooner with Roosie.

Don't forget to start the tech gifting process at Fission -2 turns. I'm actually okay if we gift him Biology now and then give him Electricity on the turn we are finishing up Fission.

[bcool]

quick feedback...
shyuhe, I didn't see any marines in your PPP. I would assume Moscow could build some.

Since we will likely use the GE from fusion you can speed up Bahamas using non-spy and non-engineer specialists.

more in a bit.