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View Poll Results: Which system?
Point-System, less realistic 43 50.00%
Whatever the system is now, more realistic 43 50.00%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Feb 20, 2012, 01:34 PM   #1
TheKingOfBigOz
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Diplomacy, which system?

I'm curious, which system does everybody prefer? The current one, with no actual numbers but.. whatever they use (it's just like weight isn't?), which is 'more' realistic.

Or a point system, which is more revealing but very unrealistic?
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Old Feb 20, 2012, 01:39 PM   #2
Derpy Hooves
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Points are the best way, you can't gauge a AI like you could a human.
Even Crusader Kings 2, which has an exquisitely designed diplomacy system uses points, otherwise a human would have no chance managing it.

Essentially the question is "Do you like CiV or CIV diplomacy better?".

I would be surprised if points got less then 90% of the votes.
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Old Feb 20, 2012, 02:24 PM   #3
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I like current system. They plan and denounce and cheat and lie just like real people.
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Old Feb 20, 2012, 03:01 PM   #4
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I like current system. They plan and denounce and cheat and lie just like real people.
The current system the AI is standing between acting like a real human player and having certain rules on behaving

It doesn't make both different players happy


And with research agreements ,gold trades so important in this game I vote for point system.

Note that in a point system certain leaders can be unpredictable there are personallities.
If you pick the random personallities buttom this will totaly randomize diplomacy but it will still feels playable

better game after all.
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Old Feb 20, 2012, 03:35 PM   #5
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I would like it to be an option. A toggle.

For more relaxed games, I prefer the "approximate" method that is currently used, which is more human-like, though may not always be very reliable (same as humans), but I can see how exact numbers would be more satisfying if the game is approached from a number-crunching perspective.

While I prefer the current method, as said, I don't enjoy the current "consistent inconsistency" between what the AI Civs say and what they do.
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Old Feb 20, 2012, 04:16 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Mivo View Post
I would like it to be an option. A toggle.

For more relaxed games, I prefer the "approximate" method that is currently used, which is more human-like, though may not always be very reliable (same as humans), but I can see how exact numbers would be more satisfying if the game is approached from a number-crunching perspective.

While I prefer the current method, as said, I don't enjoy the current "consistent inconsistency" between what the AI Civs say and what they do.
See, maybe if the AI wouldn't get mad easily, and it wouldn't be as difficult to actually make friendship, the new AI wouldn't be As bad.
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Old Feb 20, 2012, 05:06 PM   #7
Sync
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derpy Hooves View Post
Essentially the question is "Do you like CiV or CIV diplomacy better?".
To be honest, those are better poll options, the current ones are too suggestive. If you ask people to choose solely between more or less realism, no-one will choose the latter.
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Old Feb 20, 2012, 07:06 PM   #8
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Either one would be ok if the AI wasn't schizophrenic psychopaths.
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Old Feb 20, 2012, 07:11 PM   #9
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Im generally a point guy but imo point system is stupid for that kind of game
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Old Feb 20, 2012, 08:21 PM   #10
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It probably really is still a point system; they just don't currently show you the numbers in the interface in Civ V.

Among other things; if they had to show the number, they'd have to show a false number for those "pretend friendship".
Otherwise, we'd be seeing things like

Bismark: Friendly (-5)
Elizabeth: Friendly (+4)
Montezuma: Hostile (-5)
Washington: Friendly (+6)
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Old Feb 20, 2012, 08:24 PM   #11
markusbeutel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKingOfBigOz View Post
I'm curious, which system does everybody prefer? The current one, with no actual numbers but.. whatever they use (it's just like weight isn't?), which is 'more' realistic.

Or a point system, which is more revealing but very unrealistic?
While the current system doesn't display point modifiers, it functions the exact same way under the hood. The only difference between the CIV IV and CIV V model is that in the CIV V model of diplomacy, negative modifiers outnumber positive modifiers by almost 4:1. Neither system is any more "realistic" than the other.
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Old Feb 20, 2012, 08:27 PM   #12
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I like having some sort of guess work to do, seeing points and realizing oh hey, this guy is a great friend, then seeing -6 or something.. kind of kills the whole CIV vibe for me
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Old Feb 21, 2012, 04:22 AM   #13
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Worth noting again what markusbeutel says; Civ5 does use a points system. You get positive modifiers for some things, and negative modifiers for others. You just can't see what exact modifiers you're getting. However, in addition to this points system (which forms a civ's "opinion"), there is also a diplomatic AI (as opposed to a diplomatic slider, which is what you get with a pure points system) which gives each civ an approach (which can make them deceptive, for example). I don't really understand that much, to be honest, and I don't really think many people do, but it is worth noting that Civ5 definitely does have a points system. It's just modified by an additional layer of diplomacy that previous titles did not have (AFAIK).
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Old Feb 21, 2012, 06:40 AM   #14
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Worth noting again what markusbeutel says; Civ5 does use a points system. You get positive modifiers for some things, and negative modifiers for others. You just can't see what exact modifiers you're getting. However, in addition to this points system (which forms a civ's "opinion"), there is also a diplomatic AI (as opposed to a diplomatic slider, which is what you get with a pure points system) which gives each civ an approach (which can make them deceptive, for example). I don't really understand that much, to be honest, and I don't really think many people do, but it is worth noting that Civ5 definitely does have a points system. It's just modified by an additional layer of diplomacy that previous titles did not have (AFAIK).
Its all hidden under the hood if forums like civfanatic , 2kgames doesn't exist how is the player supposed to know about the warmonger penalty?or Or other penalties like winning the game competing city states and so on it isn't show at all

Same with research agreements its nowhere explained in the game how it works!!!


Things that are the same every time you do it thats something we are supposed to know.
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Old Feb 21, 2012, 06:48 AM   #15
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I guess the current system isn't bad, but from what I've noticed AI never forgets, which is the biggest let down, there's very few pluses you can get and very big minuses you recieve (coveted lands, wonders, warmonger etc)
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Old Feb 21, 2012, 07:50 AM   #16
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You need a very good reason if you're going to hide information/consequences from the player. I don't think Civ 5 has a good reason for it. The AI doesn't feel human...it feels insane. The old numbers system was great. It represented what would otherwise be intuition gained over years of working with someone in a clear and concise manner.
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Old Feb 21, 2012, 08:39 AM   #17
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Strangely enough, the ponit-ssytem leads 14-11. So people still want it back.
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If you create another file and make it update the base game its modding. but if you just change the base game file that's cheating. - knightmare13

I think we should dwelp more on the subject.
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Old Feb 21, 2012, 10:04 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by joncnunn View Post
It probably really is still a point system; they just don't currently show you the numbers in the interface in Civ V.

Among other things; if they had to show the number, they'd have to show a false number for those "pretend friendship".
Otherwise, we'd be seeing things like

Bismark: Friendly (-5)
Elizabeth: Friendly (+4)
Montezuma: Hostile (-5)
Washington: Friendly (+6)
Good explanation. Regardless of what we prefer, I think this model might be better for the game developer. Experienced players know how to find the real attitude of the AI through trade proposals. Those who don't play a lot are deprived of accurate information. They become frustrated, stop playing, are likely not to buy similar titles in the future, come onto forum threads and rage, etc., etc.

Bottom line for me is, the mysterious diplomacy model doesn't make the game much harder. It does, however, make it less enjoyable until you've figured it out.

The current model may have been more interesting if the Foreign Adviser were likely to warn you about civilizations that were being deceptive, aligning themselves with enemies (through open border trades, DoF, RA, etc.), have a history of dishonorable conduct, etc. As it is now, the game demands you keep track of these things. Fair enough... if the information is available.
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Old Feb 21, 2012, 12:03 PM   #19
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The current model may have been more interesting if the Foreign Adviser were likely to warn you about civilizations that were being deceptive, aligning themselves with enemies (through open border trades, DoF, RA, etc.), have a history of dishonorable conduct, etc. As it is now, the game demands you keep track of these things. Fair enough... if the information is available.
You know I actually would like that feature from the advisors. It would essentially be a gimp version of espionage but I do think that the advisors should be able to help point out the things you listed.

I still use the foreign advisor because I often forgot to redo trades or don't notice that I can make a good trade. I don't think I use the advisors otherwise except to occasionally check the pointy stick levels.
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Old Feb 21, 2012, 12:25 PM   #20
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You need a very good reason if you're going to hide information/consequences from the player. I don't think Civ 5 has a good reason for it. The AI doesn't feel human...it feels insane. The old numbers system was great. It represented what would otherwise be intuition gained over years of working with someone in a clear and concise manner.
It doesn't even act like a player there are just so many negatif modifiers and a lot not evne visable to the palyer that diplomacy feels random
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