Great Scientist: Academy vs Discover Tech

[Pinstar]

The other problem with GP buildings in general is their vulnerability to pillaging. I can see this being a serious problem in MP...and single player too depending on how pillage-happy the AI is.

[Feyd Rautha]

BTW, while you can get unlucky and build a great improvement over a resource, a safe tactic would be to build it on a desert tile. The only thing that can show up on a desert tile is oil and if you have to remove the academy to get the oil you got a lot of use out of it regardless.

[obsolete]

Well that is genious Feyd Rautha! I will make sure I settle spots that have as much desert as I can find, so the only source I risk messing me up will be an oil plot.

:P

[Feyd Rautha]

Sometimes desert is unavoidable. I always seek floodplains for my second town location and with a 3 hex radius you're very likely to wind up with more than one desert spot after a few border pops.

Make the best out of a bad situation is all I was saying.

[DalekDavros]

Originally Posted by _hero_

We have no idea how much gold will be gained from a trade mission, though my best guess is that it will increase in return based on certain possible factors. Population of city state. Distance from City state. Tech level/era/how many turns into game you are. Unfortunately I have nothing to base the actual return of a trade mission on. If it's 750 gold or later, than again, in the late game it will take over 100 turns to recoup the one time mission with a tile improvement.

The trade mission also provides a diplomatic boost with the city state. Seeing as buying influence with a city state is pretty pricey, that's going to be a considerable part of the utility of the trade mission.

Originally Posted by Pinstar

The other problem with GP buildings in general is their vulnerability to pillaging. I can see this being a serious problem in MP...and single player too depending on how pillage-happy the AI is.

Pillaged resources can be repaired by workers in Civ V.

Originally Posted by Feyd Rautha

BTW, while you can get unlucky and build a great improvement over a resource, a safe tactic would be to build it on a desert tile. The only thing that can show up on a desert tile is oil and if you have to remove the academy to get the oil you got a lot of use out of it regardless.

Manual p. 205 says that Desert can contain "Iron, Oil, Aluminum, Uranium" (plus a bunch of lux resources that don't need to be revealed)

[Feyd Rautha]

I was reading the wrong guide! Darn ye BradyGames!

[zyrain2]

Just did my first trade mission. IIRC, I got 30 influence and 300 gold, so it's only 550 gold equiv, or 55ish turns. Before modern then, it seems to make sense to settle him. The other tricky part is golden ages, as it'll provide extra gold during them. If you're likely to get multiple golden ages with this special improvement in place, it may make sense. If you're not, then it make make sense to use him to get a golden age instead, esp late game, where you could get as much as 100gp+ extra for a golden age (depending on your economy).

[Krikkitone]

Well the Improvements need to be strengthened. Making them act to collect Strategic resources would do that. The Scientist's special ability in particular needs to be weakened.

[Nabopolassar]

A small-medium empire peaceful academy strategy is viable for Babylon, though it could work for others with heavy investment in specialists in multiple cities.

Here is an example of the concept taken a little too far (complete with massive resource trading bug just for fun):

Spoiler:

Babylon had some production potential, so I chose to send the scientist from Writing with my first settler to create a super science city. I chose the grassland area because of the luxury and the growth potential. Akkad generates over half of my science, and most of my cities are running some scientists (Babylon is running a full set with wonders and National Epic). Yes, the first academy ended up on an iron plot, but I didn't need it. On Emperor, I am an era ahead of Napoleon, who conquered half of the pangaea and has a much larger population. A couple of turns after the screenshot was taken, I finished a space victory with a medium-sized empire.

It may not have been the most efficient approach (at some point, I should have just bulbed), but I was able to win with only a few research pacts and 10 cities (5 early core cities, 4 late resource/production cities to build miscellaneous ship parts, and a conquered militaristic city state). Academies are an option. If other things get nerfed, then they'll be a better option.

[TheMeInTeam]

Bulbing vs settling great scientists already had a lot of factors favoring bulbing in civ IV, but at least there were appealing alternatives (rep supercapitol, early academy being worth more and sooner w/o saving him for a long time). Now, discovering ANY tech you want instantly regardless of era means that it's going to be very, very hard to match the beaker return of that option using the tile improvement while the outcome of the game is still in doubt (which happens long before you get into late-game tech eras and often before you even have access to all multipliers).

Basically, this decision isn't very dynamic, flexible insta-tech is just that good.

[CultureManiac]

Originally Posted by alpaca

I'm not at all sure about the other GP improvements, either. They all sound pretty lame, except maybe for the manufactory (and that doesn't sound too great, either). Citadel might be useful at choke points but I guess that your opponent will be able to find a way around it in most cases.

In my last game Montezuma tried to WALK around it, losing three points each time. His units came out the other end of my peninsula with one HP!

[Martin Alvito]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

Basically, this decision isn't very dynamic, flexible insta-tech is just that good.

The problem is that the Science per turn is that bad.

Consider +5 Science per turn against the Science required for a late Medieval tech. On Deity, Standard map that's going to cost you 484S. It would take 97 turns to recoup that, and that number is before we even take the measure of what getting the tech early will yield.

You'll still bulb even if the list of techs is restricted or the Science from bulbing is capped with elapsed turns unless the Academy gets a huge buff. You'll just bulb Education rather than, say, Steel.

[Folket]

I have never built an acadamy with a great scientist.

I would like to see merchants and artist become stronger. I like that scientists and engineers have a huge impact on the game.

[QuixotesGhost]

Originally Posted by CultureManiac

In my last game Montezuma tried to WALK around it, losing three points each time. His units came out the other end of my peninsula with one HP!

The AI doesn't even seem to "see" Citadels or even recoginize what they do. If you place one up against a city, it gets disgusting since AI ranged units have a high priority to seige the city and will just stand right next to the citadel trying to seige the city instead of dislodging the citadel defender.

I had a game where I got attacked by Alex and was beaten back to a single coastal city. I placed a citadel right next to it and garrisoned it with a single Longswordman with a Catapult in the city. Despite an absoluelty ridiculous horde, those two units were able to hold out for about ~100 turns, easily killing about 50-70 units before they were finally beaten by the appearance of rifles.

[alpaca]

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The problem is that the Science per turn is that bad.

Consider +5 Science per turn against the Science required for a late Medieval tech. On Deity, Standard map that's going to cost you 484S. It would take 97 turns to recoup that, and that number is before we even take the measure of what getting the tech early will yield.

You'll still bulb even if the list of techs is restricted or the Science from bulbing is capped with elapsed turns unless the Academy gets a huge buff. You'll just bulb Education rather than, say, Steel.

Even though this kind of analysis is already in favor of instant techs, what actually makes the scientists totally insane is their ability to go down a three or four techs deep slingshot to some absurdly advanced tech like Artillery or Globalisation. This problem could be solved by making them give you a random tech like research agreements.

[Rashkaar]

Originally Posted by alpaca

Even though this kind of analysis is already in favor of instant techs, what actually makes the scientists totally insane is their ability to go down a three or four techs deep slingshot to some absurdly advanced tech like Artillery or Globalisation. This problem could be solved by making them give you a random tech like research agreements.

QFT.

GM/GA's should have their special ability improved, and GA/GS/GE should provide a better tile improvement (+ ability to create buildings, perhaps max 3 w/50/30/20% bonuses or whatever).

GMs in particular have a completely useless ability, 5-600g equivalent is nothing when you can easily create >100g surplus per turn and/or earn much more through a golden age.

GA's can be kind-of-useful if you need certain tiles for friendly territory bonus/can't afford to buy tiles at 280g/pop, but still... golden age fodder for me (if I even ever get one).

[Soronery]

Not worthwhile. Early game, the free tech is most valuable where you can pop it and get a 15-20 turn tech for free.

[bryanw1995]

I think that GS's are most useful when slingshotting to ridiculously high tech levels early on. think longswordmen at turn 80 with babylon or riflemen turn 110 or something ridiculous like that.

[eewallace]

Yep, I put an early academy on coal in my space-race game.

Fortunately I had another source.

[Martin Alvito]

Originally Posted by alpaca

Even though this kind of analysis is already in favor of instant techs, what actually makes the scientists totally insane is their ability to go down a three or four techs deep slingshot to some absurdly advanced tech like Artillery or Globalisation. This problem could be solved by making them give you a random tech like research agreements.

If the Science per turn were large enough, there would be a significant long term opportunity cost to your slingshot. You'd have to weigh the value of the advanced tech now against having the tech 10-12 turns later and getting other techs sooner.

You're right that Scientific Revolution is a problem. You never had the ability in Civ 4 to chain a string of bulbs.

You'd still do silly stuff like stack up GS's and Scientific Revolution to get to Globalization, but there's no way to create a meaningful opportunity cost for bulbing in the endgame. What you want is to make the choice meaningful early on.