Questions

[diceman81]

Hi all,

Couple of questions:

1) I recently upgraded from version 1.02 to 2.42. Does anyone have a link to list the changes/features of the newer version?

2) When one of your cities has civil disorder I understand all activity stops i.e. what is being built, contibution to science + tax. When you guys play do you go to all your cities at the end of each turn to see if they will be ok? I know you can check by F4 but disorder usually happens when city grows (extra citizen)

3) In some wonders the effect is to make happy citizens in all friendly cities. Does this mean your allies cities aswell or civs that you are at peace with? Also in some wonders the happiness is for cities on continent. So if your city is only city on island no effect is had by the wonder for your other cities?

Currently playing emperor, but need to sort out the small details if I am to succeed at deity!

Thanks,

D.

[Magic_gorter]

Originally Posted by diceman81

Hi all,

Couple of questions:

1) I recently upgraded from version 1.02 to 2.42. Does anyone have a link to list the changes/features of the newer version?

There should be a readme.txt file with the patch. It contains all changes made/fixed.

Originally Posted by diceman81

2) When one of your cities has civil disorder I understand all activity stops i.e. what is being built, contibution to science + tax. When you guys play do you go to all your cities at the end of each turn to see if they will be ok? I know you can check by F4 but disorder usually happens when city grows (extra citizen).

When going into civil disorder all activities do stop in that city (not the other cities) except food. Disorder can come when a city grows but also when more cities are build (not only by you but also by AI). So it's not always possible to tell when the cities go into disorder. Most of the times I check with F4 (but as I told it's not always accurate)and the most important city (SSC) I check if it's still celebrating (if possible).

Originally Posted by diceman81

3) In some wonders the effect is to make happy citizens in all friendly cities. Does this mean your allies cities aswell or civs that you are at peace with? Also in some wonders the happiness is for cities on continent. So if your city is only city on island no effect is had by the wonder for your other cities?

Those wonders will only work for you. The game tells that some wonders like Hanging Garden will only effect cities on same continent but that's not true. They affect all cities. So it doesn't matter where you build the wonder.

[timtofly]

Originally Posted by diceman81

Hi all,

Couple of questions:

1) I recently upgraded from version 1.02 to 2.42. Does anyone have a link to list the changes/features of the newer version?

2) When one of your cities has civil disorder I understand all activity stops i.e. what is being built, contibution to science + tax. When you guys play do you go to all your cities at the end of each turn to see if they will be ok? I know you can check by F4 but disorder usually happens when city grows (extra citizen).

F4 in MGE/TOT will sometimes show a "pending" revolt with a red city icon. To fully check though, cycle through your cities and look at the food bin. If it is full, and about ready to empty, then remove a worker, and that will help avoid a revolt.


I may be wrong, but the only friendly cities are your own. You cannot move a unit into a "friendly" city. Being an ally seems to only remove zones of control and you cannot get rid of these friendly pesky units that "park" in your territory when you are trying to "work" the land with your engineers. The wonders only effect you and the one that says the "same continent" is "all continents".

Originally Posted by diceman81

3) In some wonders the effect is to make happy citizens in all friendly cities. Does this mean your allies cities aswell or civs that you are at peace with? Also in some wonders the happiness is for cities on continent. So if your city is only city on island no effect is had by the wonder for your other cities?

Currently playing emperor, but need to sort out the small details if I am to succeed at deity!

Thanks,

D.

[notes]

Thanks heaps! Good questions and answers!

I always avoided BACHS especially on games with lots of ocean, but now I know it affects all cities Itll probably become one of my most sought after wonders!

[Magic_gorter]

Bach is a really great wonder for solving happiness problems.

[diceman81]

Thanks great answers

I used to never build hanging gardens. Built it in my current game and it has had a hugely beneficial effect in growing my civ (especially new cities, civil disorder avoided even without temples). Nice to know it doesn't help rival civs too!

@Magic Gorter: I always thought Mikes chapel is way more effective than Bach Catherdral? Also off the top of my head, Bachs Cathedral increases the effect of all your cathedrals, so if you already have Mikes Chapel(which acts as a cathedral in all cities), this effect is realised in all your cites? Was always unsure if this actually happened

Or maybe you mean Bach is really good only if you have Mikes Chapel (or a cathedral built in all cities). As you can see I am a bit confused!

Thanks again for expert answers!

D.

[Prof. Garfield]

Having the Theology Tech increases the effectiveness of cathedrals by 1 (and having communism lowers their effect by 1). Bach's, on the other hand, makes 2 unhappy citizens content in each of your cities. The thing that make's Bach's so powerful is this: this boost occurs in the "wonder stage" of happiness, which is after you are penalized for having troops outside your city in a republic or democracy. The only other way to get this effect is to build Shakespeare's Theater, where it will cure all the red hats in a city at the last stage.

Basically, Mike's may make more citizens content, but if you miss the wonder you can still build cathedrals. Nothing can replace Bach's effect.

[diceman81]

To continue my series of questions, does anyone know how to predict whether you get pollution or not? I know it depends on population of city and on the toxic symbols on the city screen but how do you know if pollution is actually going to occur?

Also what is the best way to get rid of it, e.g. build mass transit or solar plant e.g. Is ther a table that can predict best course of action?

Thanks!!

D.

[timtofly]

Once you get Mass Production and the Mass Transit building, your chances of polution goes up dramatically if your population is 10+ in a city, even if you have very little production. Population polution is harder to control than production polution unless you have small size cities. You will want to get Mass Transit's built right away. They set population polution to zero.

I think you can go up to 20 hammers before you get Production Polution. The Nuclear and Hydro Plants will get you to 40 before you get Polution from Production. If you have the Hoover Dam, you are all set in that area. The Solar Plant will set your polution to Zero in the city it is built.

You have to build a factory before you can build any plants, except if you have Hoover Dam (you will automatcially have the affects (not the building itself) of a Hydro plant in every city). I don't think any one ever builds the Power Plant. Plants are redundant as they do not add anything if you have multiple plants. Only one can add to the factory. The Manufacturing Plant is the exception to that rule. It adds to the (factory+plant) equation. If you have the Hoover Dam, you may be able to build nuclear plants, but they will not add much, other than, you can sell them later.

If it works out, you can build the plants when they come "online" and then after you build the Solar plant you can sell them to help if you are low on funds, or need a boost in funds for a last minute project. The first plant is the power plant, but once the hydro plant is available, you can no longer build it. When the Nuclear Plant becomes available, you can no longer build the hydro plant. Once the Solar Plant becomes available, you cannot build the Nuclear Plant. If you go for Combustion and Automobile you will tend to build more Nuclear Plants and maybe a few Power Plants. Unless the city is on a River, you cannot build the Hydro Plant. If you go for Corporation and Electronics, then you have a shot at the Hoover Dam and will probably not build many Nuclear plants, just the Solar Plant. Once Solar Plants are available, and you build a new city, you have to build a Factory and then the Solar Plant. You cannot build any of the other "booster" plants. That makes having the Hoover Dam important, since the effect is there when you build the new city.

[Ali Ardavan]

Originally Posted by diceman81

To continue my series of questions, does anyone know how to predict whether you get pollution or not? I know it depends on population of city and on the toxic symbols on the city screen but how do you know if pollution is actually going to occur?

Once pollution is a risk (you see toxic icons in city display) whether you get it in a particular turn in a particular city or not is a matter of chance. This chance depends on three factors population of the city, shield production of the city, and the number of your techs. After a certain point (well into future techs), the tech part becomes so large that the chances of getting pollution is 100% unless the other factors have been neutralized completely. For example, early on if you see a single pollution icon in a city display, the actual chances of getting pollution are quite low and you can safely ignore it for many turns. As your tech advances, the chance of getting pollution even if you see a single icon increase and eventually reach 100%.

Originally Posted by diceman81

Also what is the best way to get rid of it, e.g. build mass transit or solar plant e.g. Is ther a table that can predict best course of action?

timtofly covered this for the most part. Here are my corrections and additions:

Originally Posted by timtofly

Once you get Mass Production and the Mass Transit building, your chances of polution goes up dramatically if your population is 10+ in a city, even if you have very little production.

Actually the trigger tech for the population pollution is automobile not mass production.

Originally Posted by timtofly

You will want to get Mass Transit's built right away. They set population polution to zero.

Mass Transit is definitely the way to neutralize population pollution. I once read that the discovery of environmentalism has a reducing effect too.

Shield production in a city can be increased by additive 50% factors with the building of a factory, any one of various power plants, and manufacturing plant. This works similarly to the boost in science production from library, university, research lab. One difference here is that you have a choice of various power plants to choose from. (Another is that a power plant without a factory gives no shield boost, as opposed to a university that gives you a boost even without a library.) The regular power plant is the first one that becomes available as you advance your techs. This one adds to your pollution problem and is almost never built. Nuclear and Hydro both help reduce pollution and thus are the preferred way to go. They both take longer to become available though. Nuclear has the risk of a meltdown if its city spends more than a turn in unrest. Hydro plant is more expensive to build (240 shields vs. 160) and can only be built in cities next to a mountain or river. Solar plant is the last one that becomes available, it is also the costliest to build (320 shields) and most effective in battling pollution. It is advertised (I have never tested this myself or read anyone doing it) as having the unique effect of delaying the onset of global warming if you already have pollution elsewhere in your empire.

Hoover dam gives all your cities a hydro power plant. I often refrain from building factories till Hoover is built. Many players, myself included, have reached the conclusion that factories before Hoover are just not worth it. Some would argue that factories are not worth it, period.

Recycling center is the most effective way to neutralize pollution from shield production. While nuclear and hydro reduce it, they do not fully get rid of it. I doubt if a solar plant does it either though I do not know for sure since I rarely build them.

[timtofly]

As a tedious, huge map, empire builder, I can safely say that having Mass Transit and a Solar Plant in a city that has a population 20+ and a 100+ shield production/per turn will have "no pollution" side effects even if the city has no recycling plant. Also since I build Solar Plants, I have never had Global Warming, even if the Pollution Beaker is in the red due to AI's having too much pollution. Recycling Centers may be more efficient, but they do not help after 80+ shields per turn. If you do not have a city with that production output, then use them instead of a Solar plant. Once you build a Solar Plant, you can get rid of any power plant, hydro plant, nuclear plant, and recycling center, because they are not needed any more.

Thank you Ali for the Population Trigger correction. I also do not know if having the Hoover Dam will allow you to build Solar Plants without the Factory or not. I am curious though, having the effect of a Hydro plant without a Factory seems like a bug, since a Plant typically works with the Factory. Can a plant replace a factory, or does it only produce sheilds if there is a factory. I am not a mathematician, so I never got down to the nitty gritty of which is the most effecient. I happened to accidently sell a recycling center once and noticed that not having it did not make a difference if there was a Solar Plant built. I stopped building them and went for the Solar Plants ASAP. If I can have the Hoover Dam giving me production without A Factory and can still build a Solar Plant, then I can stop building Factories also.

I found this in a game file:

You cannot build a Mfg. Plant in a city without a Factory.
Mfg. Plants in cities where the factory has been sold or
lost only increase output %50 (not 100%) until factory is
rebuilt. Same situation for Bank/Market and Univ/Library.

Solar Plants, in addition to providing super-clean power, prevent
the pollution that occurs when you have "too much future tech".

@;Mass Transit
@PEDIAIMPROVE13
Eliminates pollution caused by population.

@;Recycling Center
@PEDIAIMPROVE18
Decreases the pollution caused by factories.

It seems that factories trigger production pollution, unless an advance does. If you do not have a factory, you do not need a recycling center. A Mfg. Plant will still give you 50% after you sell the Factory, and you may have no pollution side effects. Mass Transit eliminates population pollution. And Solar Power prevents pollution from "too much tech".

I suppose If you had a Factory with a Solar Plant, you still may have slight pollution if you do not have a Recycling Center. That must be why I am still producing Pollution in the Demographics Screen And there is still a small Pollution Beeker. I never get polluted tiles though, but if I have Recycling Centers or "no factories" I may have 0 Pollution in the Demographics Screen.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Ali Ardavan

Actually the trigger tech for the population pollution is automobile not mass production.

Actually, the trigger techs for population pollution are Automobile, Industrialisation, Mass Production and Plastics.

[Ali Ardavan]

Originally Posted by timtofly

Recycling Centers may be more efficient, but they do not help after 80+ shields per turn. If you do not have a city with that production output, then use them instead of a Solar plant.

That is right. In fact, they only help only up to shield outputs in the sixties. As you approach 70 and above, even with a recycling center and mass transit you start seeing those pollution icons again.

Originally Posted by timtofly

I am curious though, having the effect of a Hydro plant without a Factory seems like a bug, since a Plant typically works with the Factory. Can a plant replace a factory, or does it only produce sheilds if there is a factory.

You get pollution icons with high shield production, whether or not you have a factory in the city. I have even seen the icon prior to Industrialization in a large city that had King Richard's. If you build Hoover, you will get the pollution reduction effect in every city regardless of whether it has a factory or not. However, you get the 50% increased shield production only in cities that already have a factory.

Originally Posted by Catfish

Actually, the trigger techs for population pollution are Automobile, Industrialisation, Mass Production and Plastics.

Thanks Catfish for the correction. Would you please elaborate how each affects the population pollution?

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Ali Ardavan

Thanks Catfish for the correction. Would you please elaborate how each affects the population pollution?

I don't know the mathematics behind it. I think the four have equal weighting. The effects of each are cumulative. Of those techs, Industrialisation would be the first available in the standard game (I almost exclusively play scenarios when I play, so techs are often jumbled all over the place), so I guess, technically, it is the trigger technology in this instance. It will trigger pollution, but, by itself, will require an exceptionally large city size to do so. As you acquire more of these techs, population-based pollution will begin to appear in smaller cities. In the standard game the order of availability would be: Industrialisation → Automobile → Mass Production → Plastics.

If you want to check the hard-coded effects of technologies, see William Keenan's guides:

Fantastic Worlds
Test of Time

Environmentalism and Sanitation have the opposite effect.

[killing time]

Originally Posted by Magic_gorter

The game tells that some wonders like Hanging Garden will only effect cities on same continent but that's not true. They affect all cities. So it doesn't matter where you build the wonder.

oh wow, never knew that.

[diceman81]

Thanks for info re pollution.

Quite complicated but at least I know best course of action!

D.

[Sir_Lancelot]

Originally Posted by Magic_gorter

When going into civil disorder all activities do stop in that city (not the other cities) except food. Disorder can come when a city grows but also when more cities are build (not only by you but also by AI). So it's not always possible to tell when the cities go into disorder. Most of the times I check with F4 (but as I told it's not always accurate)and the most important city (SSC) I check if it's still celebrating (if possible).

How does cities built by the AI affect happiness in your cities?
What means SSC? Umm, Single City Challenge? It's usually called OCC I believe.

Originally Posted by timtofly

Once you get Mass Production and the Mass Transit building, your chances of polution goes up dramatically if your population is 10+ in a city, even if you have very little production. Population polution is harder to control than production polution unless you have small size cities. You will want to get Mass Transit's built right away. They set population polution to zero.

I think you can go up to 20 hammers before you get Production Polution. The Nuclear and Hydro Plants will get you to 40 before you get Polution from Production. If you have the Hoover Dam, you are all set in that area. The Solar Plant will set your polution to Zero in the city it is built.

You have to build a factory before you can build any plants, except if you have Hoover Dam (you will automatcially have the affects (not the building itself) of a Hydro plant in every city). I don't think any one ever builds the Power Plant. Plants are redundant as they do not add anything if you have multiple plants. Only one can add to the factory. The Manufacturing Plant is the exception to that rule. It adds to the (factory+plant) equation. If you have the Hoover Dam, you may be able to build nuclear plants, but they will not add much, other than, you can sell them later.

If it works out, you can build the plants when they come "online" and then after you build the Solar plant you can sell them to help if you are low on funds, or need a boost in funds for a last minute project. The first plant is the power plant, but once the hydro plant is available, you can no longer build it. When the Nuclear Plant becomes available, you can no longer build the hydro plant. Once the Solar Plant becomes available, you cannot build the Nuclear Plant. If you go for Combustion and Automobile you will tend to build more Nuclear Plants and maybe a few Power Plants. Unless the city is on a River, you cannot build the Hydro Plant. If you go for Corporation and Electronics, then you have a shot at the Hoover Dam and will probably not build many Nuclear plants, just the Solar Plant. Once Solar Plants are available, and you build a new city, you have to build a Factory and then the Solar Plant. You cannot build any of the other "booster" plants. That makes having the Hoover Dam important, since the effect is there when you build the new city.

Much production and pollution info here.

I think also difficulty level affects pollution. My first game is on Prince, and I don't have big problems. I don't think I get any noticeable population pollution until about size 14. I'm in Future Tech btw.

Originally Posted by Ali Ardavan

Once pollution is a risk (you see toxic icons in city display) whether you get it in a particular turn in a particular city or not is a matter of chance. This chance depends on three factors population of the city, shield production of the city, and the number of your techs. After a certain point (well into future techs), the tech part becomes so large that the chances of getting pollution is 100% unless the other factors have been neutralized completely. For example, early on if you see a single pollution icon in a city display, the actual chances of getting pollution are quite low and you can safely ignore it for many turns. As your tech advances, the chance of getting pollution even if you see a single icon increase and eventually reach 100%.

What does the city view pollution icons mean? 10 icons = 10% chance of getting a polluted tile the next turn?

Originally Posted by Ali Ardavan

Hoover dam gives all your cities a hydro power plant. I often refrain from building factories till Hoover is built. Many players, myself included, have reached the conclusion that factories before Hoover are just not worth it. Some would argue that factories are not worth it, period.

I guess if you play for quick victories... But over time the factories are worth it, if you have large cities.

Originally Posted by Ali Ardavan

Recycling center is the most effective way to neutralize pollution from shield production. While nuclear and hydro reduce it, they do not fully get rid of it. I doubt if a solar plant does it either though I do not know for sure since I rarely build them.

Solar Plant eliminates production pollution as Timtofly said. The Civilopedia says it too, and it seems to be true as I built some of them.

[Prof. Garfield]

How does cities built by the AI affect happiness in your cities?

As you build lots of cities, you begin to suffer from something usually called the Riot Factor (although I think that, technically, the "Riot Factor" is just the parameter in the game that can be changed for scenarios/non-standard play). What this does is reduce the number of citizens that are default content in your cities (4 at prince). The number of cities you can have without suffering this effect depends on your difficulty level and your current government.

Once you have more cities than the "Maximum" given your government and difficulty level, some of your cities will have one less default content citizen (at prince, some cities would only have 3 default content citizens). AI cities will determine which of your cities will be "penalized" first.

More information can be found here.

What means SSC? Umm, Single City Challenge? It's usually called OCC I believe.

"Super Science City." Essentially you improve a city on the best trade terrain you can find and give it Copernicus' Observatory and Isaac Newton's College (along with the science improvements and everything else it needs to grow). Hopefully, you also have the colossus in the city for extra trade and Shakespeare's Theater to solve all happiness issues. Such a city can produce a massive amount of science per turn.

I think also difficulty level affects pollution. My first game is on Prince, and I don't have big problems. I don't think I get any noticeable population pollution until about size 14. I'm in Future Tech btw.

It impacts the probability that you will get pollution; a higher difficulty level with the same "amount" of pollution will produce more "skulls" than a lower difficulty level.

I guess if you play for quick victories... But over time the factories are worth it, if you have large cities.

Most experienced players, by the time they are in a position to build factories, are using the income they generate from trade to rushbuild whatever they want. This means that the purpose of a factory is not to speed production, but to save gold. The factory, therefore, lets you pay 400g and in return receive a stream of "income" in rushbuild savings (less, of course, the 4 gold maintenance). That means you want your production, after a factory, to exceed some "target" that will save you a lot of gold.

The most obvious target is production of a unit in 1 or 2 turns, so you might want to exceed, say, 25 shields to be able to produce freight or Mech. Infantry (remembering to rehome), or 40s to be able to build an engineer every turn.

If you can't do that, you want to exceed some multiple of 10 shields that you couldn't before. This lets you reduce the number of shields you have to rush in order to get a unit, saving you 21 gold if you can get at least 10 shields (25 - 4), or 46 gold if you can get 20.

The "trouble" is that if you are rush building units anyway, you aren't focussed very much on shield production in your cities, beyond what is needed to support units and have 1 or 2 "seed" shields.

Occasionally, you may want a factory to enable a city to support more units, usually engineers (where food production is important for the support as well) or transports (which are difficult to rehome).

[Jokemaster]

Originally Posted by Sir_Lancelot

How does cities built by the AI affect happiness in your cities?
What means SSC? Umm, Single City Challenge? It's usually called OCC I believe.

SSC means ''Super Science City'' which is a tactic that consists in building a city near a great trade site, and building all the science improvements and wonders in it. It should also have other improvements that help that city to grow (e.g. marketplace, bank) via WLTPD, and when it is not building that, it is building caravans nonstop to benefit from trade bonuses as well from ongoing bonuses. It also usually gets special treatment from engineers. The basis in SSC is that it can produce a LOT of science each turn from city research alone (I have seen over 1400 in one turn without unrest... but from 750 to 1250 beakers a turn is more common)

As for your other question, IIRC, the AI cities count in the Riot Factor, that determines what level of unhappiness your cities have.

Originally Posted by Sir_Lancelot

I think also difficulty level affects pollution. My first game is on Prince, and I don't have big problems. I don't think I get any noticeable population pollution until about size 14. I'm in Future Tech btw.

Playing Deity, in FT 160ish, I get pretty much the same results (and usually that's when I rush Mass Transit) so I'd be suprised if that would be true.

Originally Posted by Sir_Lancelot

What does the city view pollution icons mean? 10 icons = 10% chance of getting a polluted tile the next turn?

Every icon counts for 10 tons of pollution. It counts in your demographics.
So, if you have 14 icons, you will have 140 tons of pollution,

As for your other question, it depends, like Ali Ardavan said, on different factors. If you are asking for a table of the odds of pollution happening based on all 3 factors Ali mentioned earlier... then I don't know of any.
[/QUOTE]