ISDG ~ CivAssist II and Pre-saves

Lanzelot · Oct 10, 2010, 03:47 AM

There has been a lot of hot debate about whether or not to allow CivAssist II and/or Pre-saves for our ISDG. I think we should finally put an end to this and get on with the important things (like starting the game...

). Therefore we will have a democratic vote on this and let the majority decide.

Please don't start another discussion here. Everything has already been said, and thanks to d73070d0 we have very detailed and neutral explanations of both tools here and here.

I think we can summarize the following:

Both tools can speed up the game (at least for those who are used to using them)!
On a small 4-civ map neither one will probably make that much of a difference...
Both tools can be used for cheating!
People who are determined to cheat, will find a way anyway...

Masqurin · Oct 10, 2010, 04:50 AM

Hm. I said I can't vote on CivForum... but, after I had think awhile: presaves have another problem. Because the sharing of it won't be covered by our bot, it would make things more complicated. CivAssistII would negolate the lost time from banning presaves, so I go for: allow it, ban presave.

Sounds the best for me at least.

[Edit]Why is the pool secret? ;O

justanick · Oct 10, 2010, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanzelot

On a small 4-civ map neither one will probably make that much of a difference...

I know i've already ruptered my reputation to a level near the devil, but i have to disagree once again.
Presaves reduces the time needed for the one complete circle by probably 30% on averange and increase the time one team effectively has for its own turn. This increases the amount of democracy. I hope this make some people understand why i so strongly emphasize the usefullness of presaves.

CivAssist works different. It mainly complies the lazyness of some people. And although i am convinced lazyness is an important argument, i think for a dg there is the need for a different measure/criterion.

justanick · Oct 10, 2010, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masqurin

Hm. I said I can't vote on CivForum... but, after I had think awhile: presaves have another problem. Because the sharing of it won't be covered by our bot, it would make things more complicated.

This is what embassies are for, too.

Furiey · Oct 10, 2010, 05:34 AM

I personally am a great fan of CivAssist and found the game so frustrating that I stopped playing when I couldn't get it to work on my Vista laptop. I also argued for it to be used in previous demogames here when it had not been used before. I personally do not have the time to go through the game and dig out the info when CivAssist can neatly present it to me without searching and collating info from multiple screens. That's not laziness, that's time and using the same arguement as the presave arguement will give more time for the democracy process.
Personally I don't like the idea of sending on the save before you have done your turn, but I have never used this method so can not really comment.

However, I am just a referee, so my comments as those of justanick, should be taken in that regard and you, the DG players need to decide what rules you want to play under.

justanick · Oct 10, 2010, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Furiey

That's not laziness, that's time and using the same arguement as the presave arguement will give more time for the democracy process.

I use a wider definition of laziness.

Erpel · Oct 10, 2010, 06:36 AM

ban both is the best compromise imo.

Cyc · Oct 10, 2010, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masqurin

[Edit]Why is the pool secret? ;O

The polling process is a little tricky when initiating the thread. This may be Lanzelot's first poll. So we should give him a break. Just one.

The importance of this poll calls for it to be public, but some people do not have the intestinal fortitude to cast their vote in an open forum. As you well know, secrecy is also power. Here the ballot is mightier than the sword. And, of course, these types of polls can hide G.W. Bush-type elections. We've had our share of double log-ons. And triple log-ons, etc.

Just one, Lanzelot....

Lanzelot · Oct 10, 2010, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masqurin

[Edit]Why is the pool secret? ;O

I didn't know there were "secret" and "public" ones... I just started a poll, left everything at its default value, and this is the way it turned out...

If there is a way to turn it "public", please let me know. (I'm a newbie with these things...)

justanick · Oct 10, 2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanzelot

If there is a way to turn it "public", please let me know.

There is no way but starting a new poll.

Cyc · Oct 10, 2010, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanzelot

I didn't know there were "secret" and "public" ones... I just started a poll, left everything at its default value, and this is the way it turned out...

If there is a way to turn it "public", please let me know. (I'm a newbie with these things...)

At the very bottom of the 2 pages used to create a poll, there are option boxes. Ones that you should be concerned with are boxes for the number of options, the amount of days to keep the poll open, and whether the poll should be made public or not. I believe the "public" option box is at the bottom of the second page. None the less, if you read all the option boxes before you press submit on each page, it really helps.

Gabelbart · Oct 10, 2010, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyc

G.W. Bush-type elections.

What the devil does that mean?

Chamnix · Oct 11, 2010, 05:15 AM

I voted allow both.

justanick · Oct 11, 2010, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabelbart

What the devil does that mean?

First time G.W.Bush was elected, this was done with some lacks of democrazy in florida, maybe he did not really won the election but stille got presodent of USA.
Here the intransparent election may be a problem, too.

Sparthage · Oct 12, 2010, 12:04 PM

I voted to allow both.

kleinerheldt · Oct 13, 2010, 05:32 AM

I think I have to explain once more, why there are that much players in germany against CAII:

First, most of us don't know all the details of this programm. You often distrust things you don't know and there ARE some information you could not get out of the save like "tiles for production-woods" in conquered cities. How will you know on which tiles other players have chopped a wood, if you haven't seen it. CAII would say it.
But the most important thing also for me: A DG is a competition beside others also in the best MM. The teams try to get the best out of their land and the more time you offer in this, the more revenues do you get. Some players only play C3C because of this part of the game. If we use CAII, there is nothing more to do for these players. I like calculating the best MM too, but with CAII it would be foolish to do it per hand, because calcuting without CAII is of course more error-prone than with. For me I can't see a solution in this problem, and I hope you can see our side in this too.

Cyc · Oct 13, 2010, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kleinerheldt

I think I have to explain once more, why there are that much players in germany against CAII:

First, most of us don't know all the details of this programm. You often distrust things you don't know and there ARE some information you could not get out of the save like "tiles for production-woods" in conquered cities. How will you know on which tiles other players have chopped a wood, if you haven't seen it. CAII would say it.
But the most important thing also for me: A DG is a competition beside others also in the best MM. The teams try to get the best out of their land and the more time you offer in this, the more revenues do you get. Some players only play C3C because of this part of the game. If we use CAII, there is nothing more to do for these players. I like calculating the best MM too, but with CAII it would be foolish to do it per hand, because calcuting without CAII is of course more error-prone than with. For me I can't see a solution in this problem, and I hope you can see our side in this too.

That's fine with me, kleierheldt. No CA2 and no presaves. Tit for Tat. Presaves are just as DANGEROUS

as CA2. We would love to end your fears about modern technology, but you must end ours about practice saves.

Just so you know.... the dangerous part above, was a joke. I wouldn't want you misinterpreting that.

Cyc · Oct 13, 2010, 08:05 PM

And our one non-public poll gets the most votes of any poll with 14.

Although the poll is still open for less then 32 hours, this poll has not seen a vote in days.

Memento · Oct 13, 2010, 11:52 PM

The German Vote:

Quote:

Presave erlauben/allow 7 36,84%
Presave verbieten /ban 11 57,89%
CivAssist erlauben/allow 5 26,32%
CivAssist verbieten/ban 14 73,68%

I think, we have a deal.

Cyc · Oct 14, 2010, 07:41 AM

Very cool. Compromise is always a good path.

View Poll Results: Should we allow/ban CivAssist II and Pre-saves?
Allow both	5	35.71%
Ban CivAssist II	2	14.29%
Ban Pre-saves	2	14.29%
Ban both	5	35.71%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

Oct 10, 2010, 03:47 AM	#1
Lanzelot Deity Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Heidelberg Posts: 3,645	ISDG ~ CivAssist II and Pre-saves There has been a lot of hot debate about whether or not to allow CivAssist II and/or Pre-saves for our ISDG. I think we should finally put an end to this and get on with the important things (like starting the game... ). Therefore we will have a democratic vote on this and let the majority decide. Please don't start another discussion here. Everything has already been said, and thanks to d73070d0 we have very detailed and neutral explanations of both tools here and here. I think we can summarize the following: Both tools can speed up the game (at least for those who are used to using them)! On a small 4-civ map neither one will probably make that much of a difference... Both tools can be used for cheating! People who are determined to cheat, will find a way anyway... __________________ Current PBEMs: TLDO (Netherlands) War & Peace (France) Last edited by Lanzelot; Oct 10, 2010 at 03:50 AM.

Oct 10, 2010, 05:34 AM	#5
Furiey No Longer Just Lurking Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Bedfordshire UK Posts: 6,289	I personally am a great fan of CivAssist and found the game so frustrating that I stopped playing when I couldn't get it to work on my Vista laptop. I also argued for it to be used in previous demogames here when it had not been used before. I personally do not have the time to go through the game and dig out the info when CivAssist can neatly present it to me without searching and collating info from multiple screens. That's not laziness, that's time and using the same arguement as the presave arguement will give more time for the democracy process. Personally I don't like the idea of sending on the save before you have done your turn, but I have never used this method so can not really comment. However, I am just a referee, so my comments as those of justanick, should be taken in that regard and you, the DG players need to decide what rules you want to play under. __________________ (NoAIPatrol=0) SGOTM o0O0o SGOTM 0 MTDG II: Team CDZ o0O0o Fold for CFC and help cure disease! UK CFC Meetup: London, 2 October 2010

Oct 12, 2010, 12:04 PM	#15
Sparthage Fighting Tyranny Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: New Lunar Republic Posts: 2,745	I voted to allow both. __________________ Celtic Fury- The 13th Most Read Civ 3 Story (As of May 24, 2012) Chapter XVI: The Descent of Russia and the Supremacy of Armored Warfare Civilization III Corner: A S&T Times Column "TIS A LIE! THY BACKSIDE IS WHOLE AND UNGOBBLED, THOU UNGRATEFUL WHELP!" Bottom Line of Sig Currently Being Renovated

Oct 13, 2010, 08:05 PM	#18
Cyc Looking for the door... Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Behind you Posts: 14,735	And our one non-public poll gets the most votes of any poll with 14. Although the poll is still open for less then 32 hours, this poll has not seen a vote in days. __________________ There is a town in north Ontario, With dream comfort memory to spare, And in my mind I still need a place to go, All my changes were there. Blue, blue windows behind the stars, Yellow moon on the rise, Big birds flying across the sky, Throwing shadows on our eyes.

Oct 10, 2010, 04:50 AM	#2
Masqurin Chieftain Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 6	Hm. I said I can't vote on CivForum... but, after I had think awhile: presaves have another problem. Because the sharing of it won't be covered by our bot, it would make things more complicated. CivAssistII would negolate the lost time from banning presaves, so I go for: allow it, ban presave. Sounds the best for me at least. [Edit]Why is the pool secret? ;O

Oct 10, 2010, 06:36 AM	#7
Erpel Chieftain Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 12	ban both is the best compromise imo.

Oct 11, 2010, 05:15 AM	#13
Chamnix Chasing Time Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: NJ, USA Posts: 8,941	I voted allow both.

Oct 13, 2010, 05:32 AM	#16
kleinerheldt Chieftain Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 51	I think I have to explain once more, why there are that much players in germany against CAII: First, most of us don't know all the details of this programm. You often distrust things you don't know and there ARE some information you could not get out of the save like "tiles for production-woods" in conquered cities. How will you know on which tiles other players have chopped a wood, if you haven't seen it. CAII would say it. But the most important thing also for me: A DG is a competition beside others also in the best MM. The teams try to get the best out of their land and the more time you offer in this, the more revenues do you get. Some players only play C3C because of this part of the game. If we use CAII, there is nothing more to do for these players. I like calculating the best MM too, but with CAII it would be foolish to do it per hand, because calcuting without CAII is of course more error-prone than with. For me I can't see a solution in this problem, and I hope you can see our side in this too.

Oct 14, 2010, 07:41 AM	#20
Cyc Looking for the door... Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Behind you Posts: 14,735	Very cool. Compromise is always a good path. __________________ There is a town in north Ontario, With dream comfort memory to spare, And in my mind I still need a place to go, All my changes were there. Blue, blue windows behind the stars, Yellow moon on the rise, Big birds flying across the sky, Throwing shadows on our eyes.

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