Stop passing the buck to Firaxis

evrett37 · Oct 10, 2010

The buck for the dodgy condition of Civ 5 on release must stop here (first). I dug up this list of the individuals responsible for or involve with the Civ 5 testing from this thread

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9614579#post9614579

Spoiler :

Next time you feel like posting a complaint about civ 5 - be sure to pm it to the people on this list. What the hell were they doing? Why didnt they warn us? Who put DLC sales or other personal kickbacks ahead of the game ? and what are we going to do about it? Will magic flowers, rainbows and the warmth of friendship make Civ 5 better or should there be some social consequences and real meaningful change in the cast and culture?

Moderator Action: The encouragement to harass people by pms is really inappropriate.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

cr0ws · Oct 10, 2010

Unless you provide their original names, their phone numbers, credit card numbers and addresses, nothing can be done to restore honor.

Bibor · Oct 10, 2010

evrett37 said:
The buck for the dodgy condition of Civ 5 on release must stop here (first). I dug up this list of the individuals responsible for or involve with the Civ 5 testing from this thread

I also never asked to read your post but hey - I DID! AND I WANT MY MONEY BACK!

Davor · Oct 10, 2010

evrett37 said:
What the hell were they doing? Why didnt they warn us?

Maybe they counldn't warn us because the signed NDA per chance? Non Disclouser Agreements. Even if they wanted to tell us, legally they couldn't so NO, we can't blame them.

Unless for every name you have mentioned, know what there stance was on the beta, or what they have said, then no, we can't blame them, the blame goes to Firaxis and 2K.

Thormodr · Oct 10, 2010

I'm sorry but I don't agree. Just my opinion though.

I think that the beta testers worked very hard to get the game in a playable state. Even though there are still numerous bugs and balance problems, I think they probably did a commendable job considering the game was obviously rushed by 2K Games to cash in and fend off bankruptcy.

My theory is that a lot of the beta testers probably raised real concerns about how the game was dull, uninspiring and that the AI was awful. 2K Games wouldn't dream of pushing the release date back and Firaxis probably was scared to death by the prospect of an angry mob complaining about the delayed release. JS probably due to his inexperience probably didn't want to listen to ideas that were contrary to his vision.

ciV is an immensely flawed product but for that I put the blame on the designer and 2K Games. I honestly don't think you can blame the beta testers for this fiasco.

Now watch how the self righteous apologists will come in and scream how "The haters are all like this and are dividing the community!" etc, etc.

Alyosha · Oct 10, 2010

cr0ws said:
Unless you provide their original names, their phone numbers, credit card numbers and addresses, nothing can be done to restore honor.

Indeed. And make sure you include that security number on the back of the card too. Then their honor shall be restored.

Silvis · Oct 10, 2010

evrett37 said:
The buck for the dodgy condition of Civ 5 on release must stop here (first). I dug up this list of the individuals responsible for or involve with the Civ 5 testing from this thread

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9614579#post9614579

Spoiler :

byss
ainwood
AlazkanAssassin
arcan
bernie14
Bob Thomas
bobT
C.Roland
ChrisWithers
claudelu
colonelmustard
dacole
Dale
DanQ
danthrax
Dominae
ekmek
freakmon
GeneralMatt
Gogf
Grey Fox
Gyathaar
Hugin
Impaler[WrG]
jdog5000
jmoskie
jobe
Kael
karadoc
KillerClowns
Locutus
loki1232
Lord_Phan
magnus333
Meredith
Ming
monoha
Nikis-Knight
Nikolai
Nolan
notyoueither
OgreBG
Opera
Peachrocks
Pfeffersack
Primax
rah
robin-uiowa
Scott-DTA
seZereth
SirPartyMan
snafusmith
snoopy369
Solver
TheMeInTeam
totallycres
Valkrionn
Velociryx
vondrack
WarningU2
Wilboman
xienwolf
yin26
Ztaesek

Next time you feel like posting a complaint about civ 5 - be sure to pm it to the people on this list. What the hell were they doing? Why didnt they warn us? Who put DLC sales or other personal kickbacks ahead of the game ? and what are we going to do about it? Will magic flowers, rainbows and the warmth of friendship make Civ 5 better or should there be some social consequences and real meaningful change in the cast and culture?

I would agree that there are some issues with Civilization 5, but I doubt bashing them would do any good. No doubt they have read the forum and are working on fixes for the games issues. Yes, I would have waited a bit longer if I had known there were issues like this. Yes, I think they should have tested the game a bit more. I just think that we would be beating a dead horse to keep after them. They HAVE to be aware by now.

Adam7Eight · Oct 10, 2010

Thormodr said:
I'm sorry but I don't agree. Just my opinion though.

I think that the beta testers worked very hard to get the game in a playable state. Even though there are still numerous bugs and balance problems, I think they probably did a commendable job considering the game was obviously rushed by 2K Games to cash in and fend off bankruptcy.

My theory is that a lot of the beta testers probably raised real concerns about how the game was dull, uninspiring and that the AI was awful. 2K Games wouldn't dream of pushing the release date back and Firaxis probably was scared to death by the prospect of an angry mob complaining about the delayed release. JS probably due to his inexperience probably didn't want to listen to ideas that were contrary to his vision.

ciV is an immensely flawed product but for that I put the blame on the designer and 2K Games. I honestly don't think you can blame the beta testers for this fiasco.

Now watch how the self righteous apologists will come in and scream how "The haters are all like this and are dividing the community!" etc, etc.

Agreed.

Not to mention these guys probably only got to test the game for one day. :lol:

Afforess · Oct 10, 2010

I've beta tested a different game, Cities XL, which also had serious design issues. We raised these issues in the beta tester forum, but we were largely ignored by the designers. The design studio had this notion that the point of beta testing was to catch serious bugs, like memory leaks and CTD's, but not change core gameplay, and that we beta testers should be in awe and honored we were even chosen. I suspect this is the case here.

So I wouldn't blame the testers. I'd very surprised if they weren't aware of many of the issues in advance.

dannythefool · Oct 10, 2010

As someone who was in the STO beta, I'm pretty sure the testers did their best...

keshik22 · Oct 10, 2010

I agree, it's not really fair to blame the testers, all they can do is report what they find to the developers, it's then up to the devs to do something about their findings, or not as the case may be

Davor · Oct 10, 2010

Afforess said:
I've beta tested a different game, Cities XL, which also had serious design issues. We raised these issues in the beta tester forum, but we were largely ignored by the designers. The design studio had this notion that the point of beta testing was to catch serious bugs, like memory leaks and CTD's, but not change core gameplay, and that we beta testers should be in awe and honored we were even chosen. I suspect this is the case here.

So I wouldn't blame the testers. I'd very surprised if they weren't aware of many of the issues in advance.

I have herd of this before. I herd of beta testers for Games Worshop products when concersn were addressed, GW said they didn't know what they were talking about and these were people who were in the hobby for over 10 years supporting them.

It seems alot of devolpers, (not all but alot) do not listen to the beta testers,(be it video or board games) do not listen espically if it goes agaisnt their "vision".

Ogaburan · Oct 10, 2010

How can you blame a beta tester for a product?

There are usually 10 or more suggestions from each tester... its up for the company to chose what they want implemented?

In other ways, DESPITE so many testers the game "kinda lacks" to say the least.

I AM passing the buck to Firaxis.

Thormodr · Oct 10, 2010

Afforess said:
I've beta tested a different game, Cities XL, which also had serious design issues. We raised these issues in the beta tester forum, but we were largely ignored by the designers. The design studio had this notion that the point of beta testing was to catch serious bugs, like memory leaks and CTD's, but not change core gameplay, and that we beta testers should be in awe and honored we were even chosen. I suspect this is the case here.

So I wouldn't blame the testers. I'd very surprised if they weren't aware of many of the issues in advance.

I agree. I am sure a lot of the beta testers must feel awful. They did their best but were powerless to effect change. I am sure most of them are not at all happy with ciV and find it quite dull and lifeless like so many of us do.

Worst of all, they can't come on here and defend themselves due to their NDA.

Jerrymander · Oct 10, 2010

Even if the OP is objectively correct (I am not saying he is), he is disagreeing with the majority, so he'll become the local effigy for Firaxis. And, subsequently, burned.

It would be better for those that disagree with the majority to wait until the torches of riot are put out.

Silvis · Oct 10, 2010

Jerrymander said:
Even if the OP is objectively correct (I am not saying he is), he is disagreeing with the majority, so he'll become the local effigy for Firaxis. And, subsequently, burned.

It would be better for those that disagree with the majority to wait until the torches of riot are put out.

Agreed

kuukkeli · Oct 10, 2010

Afforess said:
I've beta tested a different game, Cities XL, which also had serious design issues. We raised these issues in the beta tester forum, but we were largely ignored by the designers. The design studio had this notion that the point of beta testing was to catch serious bugs, like memory leaks and CTD's, but not change core gameplay, and that we beta testers should be in awe and honored we were even chosen. I suspect this is the case here.

I've heard similar stories about beta tests too. Kind of sad really because majority of testers probably are fans anyway so to some degree companies should listen to them more.

I was once (actually done it for two games - the other one seemed genuine beta test) a beta tester for a collectible card game expansion and that worked poorly as well. Many mechanics, rules changes and thematic emphasis seemed to be completely beyond critic. If I remember correctly some aspects were considered poor by vast majority of testers but the lead designer had made up his mind on those before the test began and I think he even gave a collective reply on the test forums that certain things weren't to be criticized because they were in anyways. Still makes me mad :mad:

Jayhawks · Oct 10, 2010

i hear the statement that 2k games pushed the release date to fend off bankruptcy a lot... but... if they didn't release it and went bankrupt then we would not even have a game... isn't a flawed game better than no game? at least modders and patches can fix it, well most of it

Adam7Eight · Oct 10, 2010

Jayhawks said:
...isn't a flawed game better than no game?

No. Absolutely not.

Thormodr · Oct 10, 2010

Jayhawks said:
i hear the statement that 2k games pushed the release date to fend off bankruptcy a lot... but... if they didn't release it and went bankrupt then we would not even have a game... isn't a flawed game better than no game? at least modders and patches can fix it, well most of it

Well, perhaps they wouldn't have went bankrupt but perhaps they'd have to answer to shareholders and corporate big wigs. Perhaps a bad choice of words on my part.

I'm not sure when 2K Games' corporate year end is but it probably has a lot to do with it. Make everything look rosy.

Stop passing the buck to Firaxis

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