I'm so Glad the Slide is Gone

[Öjevind Lång]

Talk about an exploit and a dumbing down! "Are the crowds unhappy? Just move the culture slide upwards a bit!" "Is science lagging? Just live on a deficit for a time!" Now you actually have to check what is happening in your cities and with your trade. I know that the slide has been around since ur-Civ, and I think taking it out was long overdue.

[Guardian_PL]

Is this a flame bait? With slider I can decide for myself how much resources I want to spend for science with one click, in Civ5 with no science overflow I have to visit several cities and click galore to prevent wasting a lot of beakers, and then turn later do the same crap again. And you call that improvement?

[pagh80]

I dont miss it no, but i never hated it either.

[PieceOfMind]

The slider is an example of a streamlined gameplay feature. I didn't mind it in civ4 and every previous civ game. I think civ5 does well without it as well.

I do find it amusing though, as does the OP, that this is a feature of civ4 (and previous civs) that people don't seem to be prepared to admit was a streamlined mechanic.

It is a bit debatable, and there are in fact some subtleties with the slider system that newbies couldn't appreciate, but on the whole it was fairly simple to use, very quick and efficient for its task.

Civ5 makes its economy as streamlined as possible not via a slider, but through making all the calculations as transparent as possible. For example, the number of beakers you see in the corner is the exact number of beakers put towards the tech each turn. A lot of people might not know this, but in civ4, there were modifiers applied to the beakers after the amount shown in the top left of the screen. For example, if multiple of your rivals knew the tech you were researching, you accumulated beakers towards the tech a bit faster. Also, not that it made much of a difference, but you always got a minimum of 1 beaker towards a tech each turn, even if it displayed 0 beakers in the corner of the screen.

[jjkrause84]

I admit it was streamlined. It was a simple way of representing a complex component of your empire (your national budget). As I've said before: we've traded a national budget (however abstracted it was) for an allowance.

In any case the existence of a slider never meant you couldn't plan ahead...the two went hand in hand. Changing your slider could never compensate for not having built libraries or marketplaces or coliseums or what have you. Now you CAN out-tech your opponents without ever building a library (as shocking as that is).

[Drawmeus]

I never found the slider compelling, since just setting it to the max science your empire could support was pretty much always correct. Might as well have automated it.

[Roxlimn]

The slider was definitely a streamlined feature. Not having beaker overflow belongs in a completely separate discussion, since Civ 3 had no beaker overflow, and slider management.

Guardian PL:

Since these are the Civ V forums, a post that praises a development from Civ 4 to Civ 5 isn't what I would call flame-bait. Threads that emphasize the superiority of Civ 4 would be closer to that. Those would rightly belong in the Civ 4 forums.

[lschnarch]

Originally Posted by PieceOfMind

A lot of people might not know this, but in civ4, there were modifiers applied to the beakers after the amount shown in the top left of the screen. For example, if multiple of your rivals knew the tech you were researching, you accumulated beakers towards the tech a bit faster. Also, not that it made much of a difference, but you always got a minimum of 1 beaker towards a tech each turn, even if it displayed 0 beakers in the corner of the screen.

And all of this is related to the slider in which way?

This sounds quite similar to the discussion about the SoD, where people blame it for "best defender first".

The slider per se had nothing to do with some strange modifiers which were not obvious at first glance, as the stacks didn't have anything to do (per se) with "best defender first".

Actually, the slider (as representation of a nation funding special purposes from their GNP) was VERY streamlined.
That the whole system as combination of different individual game mechanics did have its flaws however shall not be denied.

[JLoZeppeli]

Originally Posted by PieceOfMind

The slider is an example of a streamlined gameplay feature. I didn't mind it in civ4 and every previous civ game. I think civ5 does well without it as well.

I do find it amusing though, as does the OP, that this is a feature of civ4 (and previous civs) that people don't seem to be prepared to admit was a streamlined mechanic.

It is a bit debatable, and there are in fact some subtleties with the slider system that newbies couldn't appreciate, but on the whole it was fairly simple to use, very quick and efficient for its task.

Civ5 makes its economy as streamlined as possible not via a slider, but through making all the calculations as transparent as possible. For example, the number of beakers you see in the corner is the exact number of beakers put towards the tech each turn. A lot of people might not know this, but in civ4, there were modifiers applied to the beakers after the amount shown in the top left of the screen. For example, if multiple of your rivals knew the tech you were researching, you accumulated beakers towards the tech a bit faster. Also, not that it made much of a difference, but you always got a minimum of 1 beaker towards a tech each turn, even if it displayed 0 beakers in the corner of the screen.

I think that the sliders are the features that the complainers less care... I haven't seen much people praying for them to return...

So, what's the point of this thread?

[PieceOfMind]

Originally Posted by lschnarch

And all of this is related to the slider in which way?

This sounds quite similar to the discussion about the SoD, where people blame it for "best defender first".

The slider per se had nothing to do with some strange modifiers which were not obvious at first glance, as the stacks didn't have anything to do (per se) with "best defender first".

Actually, the slider (as representation of a nation funding special purposes from their GNP) was VERY streamlined.
That the whole system as combination of different individual game mechanics did have its flaws however shall not be denied.

I didn't say it's relevant to the slider. Let me put my quote again, but with the intended context:

Originally Posted by PieceOfMind

Civ5 makes its economy as streamlined as possible not via a slider, but through making all the calculations as transparent as possible. For example, the number of beakers you see in the corner is the exact number of beakers put towards the tech each turn. A lot of people might not know this, but in civ4, there were modifiers applied to the beakers after the amount shown in the top left of the screen. For example, if multiple of your rivals knew the tech you were researching, you accumulated beakers towards the tech a bit faster. Also, not that it made much of a difference, but you always got a minimum of 1 beaker towards a tech each turn, even if it displayed 0 beakers in the corner of the screen.

(emphasis added)

By chopping off the bolded bit, you were cutting off the critical part of my message.

My point was (and I apologise that I did not make it clearer) that civ5 streamlines the economy in a different way. To illustrate that, while acknowledging that the slider itself was a streamlined feature, I showed that there were aspects of the economy in civ4 that were far from streamlined.

My post was never intended to be solely a comment about sliders.

Originally Posted by JLoZeppeli

I think that the sliders are the features that the complainers less care... I haven't seen much people praying for them to return...

So, what's the point of this thread?

What's the point of just about every thread in civ5 general discussions?

To have a discussion? OP is glad the slider is gone. That is a topic that can be discussed (agree/disagree/comment etc.).

[Roxlimn]

JLoZeppeli:

Someone voicing pleasure at more complex economic management in Civ V? It seems fairly obvious to me.

[JLoZeppeli]

No it seems to me that they don't want back sliders, but it not means to them that Civ V has better or deeper economic management, it's awful in another way, that's simple, everyone can understand that...

[Roxlimn]

Your wording isn't making sense, man. Need to rerun that through Babelfish.

[Dun Malg]

Originally Posted by Drawmeus

I never found the slider compelling, since just setting it to the max science your empire could support was pretty much always correct. Might as well have automated it.

No, you couldn't automate it because it wasn't always correct to emphasize tech to exactly the point of minimum positive tax income. Granted, the central pillar supporting every iteration of Civ has been "research or die" and subsequently the slider spends 90% of its time maxing out beakers, but that doesn't mean the other 10% is inconsequential. The ability to max out income is crucial to waging war sometimes, and in CIV-BtS pumping up espionage was occasionally useful as well. Even when keeping it at near-max reserch, there was still always a question of "should I play it safe at +2 coins/turn, or push for that tech one turn sooner with a -1 coin/turn deficit, or even -5 coins for two turns sooner?" How do you automate that?

[Lone Wolf]

in Civ5 with no science overflow I have to visit several cities and click galore to prevent wasting a lot of beakers,

Isn't the lack of overflow the main culprit here, not the slider removal?

BTW, imagine that in Civ4, there's no food and hammers any longer, but foodammers and a foodammers slider - each city now has one. What would your reaction be ?

(Didn't play Civ5, BTW).

[Drawmeus]

Originally Posted by Dun Malg

No, you couldn't automate it because it wasn't always correct to emphasize tech to exactly the point of minimum positive tax income. Granted, the central pillar supporting every iteration of Civ has been "research or die" and subsequently the slider spends 90% of its time maxing out beakers, but that doesn't mean the other 10% is inconsequential. The ability to max out income is crucial to waging war sometimes, and in CIV-BtS pumping up espionage was occasionally useful as well. Even when keeping it at near-max reserch, there was still always a question of "should I play it safe at +2 coins/turn, or push for that tech one turn sooner with a -1 coin/turn deficit, or even -5 coins for two turns sooner?" How do you automate that?

It's more like the other < 1% of the time. Maxing income is almost never important waging war in Civ IV if you've planned even marginally well. Maxing espionage might have been ok if espionage mattered (or was less annoying), but frankly I've never found myself saying "Man, if only I had a bit more espionage." The only time my science slider was less than max is once I hit the crucial techs for a culture victory, I'd disable science for culture. Stagnating for extended periods of time in order to win a culture victory is not something I miss.

[Lone Wolf]

Civ4 players usually max their income when preparing a massive unit upgrade.

[JLoZeppeli]

Originally Posted by Roxlimn

Your wording isn't making sense, man. Need to rerun that through Babelfish.

I don't use babelfish...

If you want i can repeat my statemant:

No one wants sliders back, but those complaining about the Civ V economic managemant, are stating that the CURRENT management is awful as Civ IV, because it is not deeper or better in any way.

Comprendre? Je l'espère....

[jjkrause84]

A lot of this is good but ignores that a Civ5 slider could have been mroe complex and better balanced than previous versions where you spent every last dime you had on research.

[Roxlimn]

JLoZeppeli:

Better, but the idiomatic use appears to be wrong. "Who" is an indicator of a question, and using it in that fashion indicates a rhetorical question meant to state the converse. So are you saying that Civ V management is better and not as awful as CivIV's?