Mac Civ5 is NOT fully compatible with Mods, no World Builder

Xyth

Xyth

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Putting this information in it's own thread so that people for whom these features are important are aware before they purchase Civ5 for Mac.


For Players:

  • Simple mods should work, including all that are currently available on the in-game mod interface.
  • The in-game mod interface won't be available in the first release of Civ5 but will be enabled in a patch soon after.
  • Once the DLL source code is released for Windows, mods will start to become incompatible with Mac, just as with Civ4. Although no major mods exist yet, any future Civ5 equivalents of Fall from Heaven, Rise of Mankind, Revolutions, and other premier mods will not function on Civ5 for Mac.
  • As a rough guideline - if it wasn't possible/compatible in Civ4 it won't be possible/compatible in Civ5.
  • There is no World Builder to make your own maps and scenarios as it is not built in like it was in Civ4. There seems to be no plans at the moment to port World Builder to Mac and in fact there are significant technical difficulties in doing so (see below).


For Modders:

  • Mac Civ5 is intended to have full XML and LUA (the replacement for the Python of Civ4) compatibility.
  • Mac Civ5 is using static (rather then dynamic) links to the DLL, just like Civ4. This means that, once again, any mod or component that uses a custom DLL will not function on Mac, severely limiting the gameplay changes that can be made.
  • The SDK (software development kit), needed to create mods beyond basic XML changes is not being ported to Mac at this time, if ever. The Windows version requires a specific Microsoft IDE (integrated developing environment) meaning a significant rewrite is required to port it.
  • Without Modbuddy (part of the SDK) we cannot package mods in the format needed for installation though there might be a way around this via 7zip. We certainly will not be able to distribute any mod we make via the in-game interface.
  • Without World Builder (part of the SDK) we cannot make our own maps or scenarios.
  • Without Nexus (part of the SDK) we cannot convert graphics or 3D models to a format usable by Civ5. Firaxis for some reason decided to use proprietary formats for many of these. I don't know if this limits us from using graphics made on Windows in our own mods or not.
  • It's theoretically possible we could use the various tools of the SDK via Bootcamp or Parallels/Fusion. However this would require a Windows installation of Civ5 as well.

I've gleaned this information from this thread here and from research on the Civ5 C&C forums here on CFC. It's subject to change/correction/clarification and I will endeavour to keep this list updated. In particular, Aspyr are releasing a final FAQ this Monday which is supposed to contain details on mod compatibility. For now though the outlook is pretty bad.

By the way, the blame for this situation should be placed firmly on Firaxis. Aspyr, despite their faults in the past, seem to be doing the best they can with the tools and time that they have.
 
*facepalm* Good job Firaxis. Good Job Aspyr. You managed to screw Mac again.
 
:(

Very very not nice if we have even not WorldBuilder and Scenario Makers :sad:

Not a so big problem, i'm used to play Civ 2 without any mod from 1996 to 2001...
 
I'm not sure where you get the info that the WorldBuilder will not be ported. It's clear that the ModBuddy IDE will not be available, as it's based on MS Visual Studio. But as far as I can tell, WB is a separate standalone application and doesn't need ModBuddy. It's a .exe with a few .dll extensions, so it *ought* to be possible to port it to the Mac. The only possible issue I can see is that one of the WB dlls is called NexusConnection.dll, implying that WorldBuilder links to Nexus in some way.
 
AlanH said:
I'm not sure where you get the info that the WorldBuilder will not be ported. It's clear that the ModBuddy IDE will not be available, as it's based on MS Visual Studio. But as far as I can tell, WB is a separate standalone application and doesn't need ModBuddy. It's a .exe with a few .dll extensions, so it *ought* to be possible to port it to the Mac. The only possible issue I can see is that one of the WB dlls is called NexusConnection.dll, implying that WorldBuilder links to Nexus in some way.
Click to expand...

Hmm I was pretty sure I read that World Builder required the IDE as well. I could be wrong though, I'll ask over in the C&C forums.
 
Ah, well, I guess you are right. rickb hasn't corrected your statement in his latest post, and it sounds as if he is our only hope for getting any modding tools for Mac Civ5.
 
Our porting framework is entirely geared towards natively porting C++ Direct X games, not porting Windows GUI, MFC or C# Windows Forms applications, so that's pretty much the main reason you don't usually get editor tools because it would be an entirely separate development process unless the editors are written entirely "in-game" with the game engine itself. Maybe you guys would have been happier with a Cider port instead? ;) If you own the Windows version, I suppose you could try running those tools with Wine or vmware/parallels, the Fire Tuner runs over the network as well. I really haven't tested it too much other than to fix one bug that caused the game to crash when trying to connect the tuner.
 
Oh BTW, if these mod tools ever get ported, I will hold everyone that has complained so loudly about them accountable for making a least one unbelievably awesome mod (that requires a DLL) to justify all the work I'd have to put into it. ;)

So how about you guys tell me what mods you are thinking of creating to get me enthused about it? I realize that porting the mod tools themselves are a somewhat separate issue from the game supporting DLL mods.

Here are some games I like to give you an idea. :) Civ (of course), War in the Pacific, Hearts of Iron, Crusader Kings, Dominions, Escape Velocity, Fallout (1 and 2), Sword of the Stars, MOO 2, Total War.
 
rickb said:
Our porting framework is entirely geared towards natively porting C++ Direct X games, not porting Windows GUI, MFC or C# Windows Forms applications, so that's pretty much the main reason you don't usually get editor tools because it would be an entirely separate development process unless the editors are written entirely "in-game" with the game engine itself. Maybe you guys would have been happier with a Cider port instead? ;) If you own the Windows version, I suppose you could try running those tools with Wine or vmware/parallels, the Fire Tuner runs over the network as well. I really haven't tested it too much other than to fix one bug that caused the game to crash when trying to connect the tuner.
Click to expand...

Yeah I reckon we can probably get the tools working in some form. For the vast majority of people the only one they'd ever want to use is World Builder so if Aspyr could manage a standalone port of that then that would alleviate a sizeable amount of concern.

Other than that the big issue is of course DLL support. Is finding a (partial) solution for it something that Aspyr could be committed to trying to find? Or would it have to remain at best an unofficial effort by a few coders?

Btw I added a line to the bottom of the first post to clarify who people should be blaming for the situation. I apologize if you are feeling a bit antagonized, not my intention. I just feel it's important that people are aware of the modding situation from the start.

Oh BTW, if these mod tools ever get ported, I will hold everyone that has complained so loudly about them accountable for making a least one unbelievably awesome mod (that requires a DLL) to justify all the work I'd have to put into it.

So how about you guys tell me what mods you are thinking of creating to get me enthused about it? I realize that porting the mod tools themselves are a somewhat separate issue from the game supporting DLL mods.

Here are some games I like to give you an idea. Civ (of course), War in the Pacific, Hearts of Iron, Crusader Kings, Dominions, Escape Velocity, Fallout (1 and 2), Sword of the Stars, MOO 2, Total War.
Click to expand...

Deal. I'm a fulltime dad and part time teacher so my time is limited but I will give it my utmost effort, just as I have with the BTS mod in my signature. The best part of Civ modding in my opinion is the community; there is so much amazing art, code and ideas generated that it's hard not to be inspired to create and bring it all together. Having access to the DLL would allow for so many things that I'd love to work on - revolutions, religious wars, mercenaries, trade goods, pandemics, confederations, natural disasters, and so much more. I'm not an artist so sadly I'm limited to using the art that others create.

If I could make my dream mod it would be some hybrid of Civ5, Age of Mythology, His Dark Materials and Stargate: the Ancient and Medieval world advancing into a glorious Steampunk era, with gods, mythological creatures and other mysterious forces running wild and influencing the world. Or I might stick with actual history.
 
rickb said:
So how about you guys tell me what mods you are thinking of creating to get me enthused about it? I realize that porting the mod tools themselves are a somewhat separate issue from the game supporting DLL mods.
Click to expand...

My selfish (as opposed to general Mac player support) interest is purely in supporting Mac players in the Game of the Month series. We use a Windows mod to record session activity during Civ4 competition games. We have to use a reduced capability mod for Mac Civ4 players because Mac Civ4 doesn't support the full modding level possible in Windows. If we get to an equivalent situation with Civ5, I suspect we shall not be able to include Mac players in GOTM at all, unless they play on Bootcamp, Parallels, VMWare ....

Probably not enough to get you excited, though.
 
Xyth said:
Putting this information in it's own thread so that people for whom these features are important are aware before they purchase Civ5 for Mac.


For Players:

  • Simple mods should work, including all that are currently available on the in-game mod interface.
  • The in-game mod interface won't be available in the first release of Civ5 but will be enabled in a patch soon after.
  • Once the DLL source code is released for Windows, mods will start to become incompatible with Mac, just as with Civ4. Although no major mods exist yet, any future Civ5 equivalents of Fall from Heaven, Rise of Mankind, Revolutions, and other premier mods will not function on Civ5 for Mac.
  • As a rough guideline - if it wasn't possible/compatible in Civ4 it won't be possible/compatible in Civ5.
  • There is no World Builder to make your own maps and scenarios as it is not built in like it was in Civ4. There seems to be no plans at the moment to port World Builder to Mac and in fact there are significant technical difficulties in doing so (see below).


For Modders:

  • Mac Civ5 is intended to have full XML and LUA (the replacement for the Python of Civ4) compatibility.
  • Mac Civ5 is using static (rather then dynamic) links to the DLL, just like Civ4. This means that, once again, any mod or component that uses a custom DLL will not function on Mac, severely limiting the gameplay changes that can be made.
  • The SDK (software development kit), needed to create mods beyond basic XML changes is not being ported to Mac at this time, if ever. The Windows version requires a specific Microsoft IDE (integrated developing environment) meaning a significant rewrite is required to port it.
  • Without Modbuddy (part of the SDK) we cannot package mods in the format needed for installation though there might be a way around this via 7zip. We certainly will not be able to distribute any mod we make via the in-game interface.
  • Without World Builder (part of the SDK) we cannot make our own maps or scenarios.
  • Without Nexus (part of the SDK) we cannot convert graphics or 3D models to a format usable by Civ5. Firaxis for some reason decided to use proprietary formats for many of these. I don't know if this limits us from using graphics made on Windows in our own mods or not.
  • It's theoretically possible we could use the various tools of the SDK via Bootcamp or Parallels/Fusion. However this would require a Windows installation of Civ5 as well.

I've gleaned this information from this thread here and from research on the Civ5 C&C forums here on CFC. It's subject to change/correction/clarification and I will endeavour to keep this list updated. In particular, Aspyr are releasing a final FAQ this Monday which is supposed to contain details on mod compatibility. For now though the outlook is pretty bad.

By the way, the blame for this situation should be placed firmly on Firaxis. Aspyr, despite their faults in the past, seem to be doing the best they can with the tools and time that they have.
Click to expand...
So we have gimped modding?
rickb said:
Our porting framework is entirely geared towards natively porting C++ Direct X games, not porting Windows GUI, MFC or C# Windows Forms applications, so that's pretty much the main reason you don't usually get editor tools because it would be an entirely separate development process unless the editors are written entirely "in-game" with the game engine itself. Maybe you guys would have been happier with a Cider port instead? ;) If you own the Windows version, I suppose you could try running those tools with Wine or vmware/parallels, the Fire Tuner runs over the network as well. I really haven't tested it too much other than to fix one bug that caused the game to crash when trying to connect the tuner.
Click to expand...
My personal preference was Cider
rickb said:
Oh BTW, if these mod tools ever get ported, I will hold everyone that has complained so loudly about them accountable for making a least one unbelievably awesome mod (that requires a DLL) to justify all the work I'd have to put into it. ;)

So how about you guys tell me what mods you are thinking of creating to get me enthused about it? I realize that porting the mod tools themselves are a somewhat separate issue from the game supporting DLL mods.

Here are some games I like to give you an idea. :) Civ (of course), War in the Pacific, Hearts of Iron, Crusader Kings, Dominions, Escape Velocity, Fallout (1 and 2), Sword of the Stars, MOO 2, Total War.
Click to expand...
Aye we shall, but those are real time games...
Xyth said:
Yeah I reckon we can probably get the tools working in some form. For the vast majority of people the only one they'd ever want to use is World Builder so if Aspyr could manage a standalone port of that then that would alleviate a sizeable amount of concern.

Other than that the big issue is of course DLL support. Is finding a (partial) solution for it something that Aspyr could be committed to trying to find? Or would it have to remain at best an unofficial effort by a few coders?

Btw I added a line to the bottom of the first post to clarify who people should be blaming for the situation. I apologize if you are feeling a bit antagonized, not my intention. I just feel it's important that people are aware of the modding situation from the start.



Deal. I'm a fulltime dad and part time teacher so my time is limited but I will give it my utmost effort, just as I have with the BTS mod in my signature. The best part of Civ modding in my opinion is the community; there is so much amazing art, code and ideas generated that it's hard not to be inspired to create and bring it all together. Having access to the DLL would allow for so many things that I'd love to work on - revolutions, religious wars, mercenaries, trade goods, pandemics, confederations, natural disasters, and so much more. I'm not an artist so sadly I'm limited to using the art that others create.

If I could make my dream mod it would be some hybrid of Civ5, Age of Mythology, His Dark Materials and Stargate: the Ancient and Medieval world advancing into a glorious Steampunk era, with gods, mythological creatures and other mysterious forces running wild and influencing the world. Or I might stick with actual history.
Click to expand...
Giving Xyth a full SDK is like giving a kid who like making stuff millions of Legos, it's going to be awesome
 
Xyth said:
Putting this information in it's own thread so that people for whom these features are important are aware before they purchase Civ5 for Mac.

By the way, the blame for this situation should be placed firmly on Firaxis. Aspyr, despite their faults in the past, seem to be doing the best they can with the tools and time that they have.
Click to expand...

I agree. Thanks Xyth !
 
Keinpferd said:
When dubbing a movie, you wouldn't stop after 60 minutes, because, "you know, in the end, the foreign actors were really hard to understand, they were speaking an awkward dialect, so we really didn't know how to deal with it…"
Click to expand...
A better analogy would be if the extras on the DVD weren't translated. But why do we need an analogy anyway?

Would you pay $400 for Civ5 just to get world builder? Porting it, with the size of the Mac game market, could make the price easily that high. Porting world builder is an entirely different process than the main game. The game itself is a straightforward port. World builder is not.
 
dfiler said:
A better analogy would be if the extras on the DVD weren't translated. But why do we need an analogy anyway?

Would you pay $400 for Civ5 just to get world builder? Porting it, with the size of the Mac game market, could make the price easily that high. Porting world builder is an entirely different process than the main game. The game itself is a straightforward port. World builder is not.
Click to expand...

:)Let's not be so insolent and ask for extras on a dvd, or even translated ones, we don't want to go that far. Better an analogy than arguing with wrong numbers. How do you get the $400 that we'd have to pay for a World Builder port? If the Mac game market was still as tiny as we are permanently being told, why is there such a growing attention to this tiny market segment by the industry, see Steam? So many PCs in offices and server rooms never see a computer game in their lives, they should all be counted out of the comparative figures.
 
I'm a Mac gamer and a longtime Civ fan so keep that in mind when interpreting my comments. They aren't meant to criticize anyone or anything. Rather, they are just describing the economics of software development.

The mac gaming market is relatively small compared to nearly every other gaming platform in existence. The reasons for this could be discussed ad-nauseam, but it is the state of the world we live in. And while i've heard for the last 15 years that the mac gaming market is growing, for whatever reason, it hasn't really changed much. We still get just the most popular games.


Where did I get the $400 figure? Admittedly, it was just pulled out of thin air. It was meant to illustrate the fact that a massive porting effort would have to be recouped from a relatively small number of buyers.

That's the key. Porting world builder and supporting all mods would require more effort than porting of the actual game. The game itself doesn't rely on much platform specific code and is easily portable. This isn't true for world builder. It is based upon microsoft technologies which would need to be replaced or emulated in some way. The effort to do this would be costly and that cost doesn't get spread between too many buyers.

The port could still happen I suppose if lots of development time were donated...
 
I thought the packaging for the mods was a simple modinfo xml file? See Dale's post on his blog: http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/ent...rt-is-through-his-modinfo-and-civ5mod-files.&

I know so very little but that seems a viable way around it to me, and basic implementations of new civs and balancey stuff seem to be entirely xml, sql or lua.

it seems to me we're in the same boat as Civ IV really which is a shame but more of less understandable.
 
Yes, Dale's blog post does describe the modinfo file. The XML and lua files can be created in any text editor, and a mod can be packaged using 7z utilities on the Mac. The bit where the Mac will fall over is on graphics. Firaxis have created a custom 3D graphics file format - .gr2, and they provide Nexus as a Windows tool for converting other 3D formats to it. As far as I know, there is no equivalent capability on the Mac.

Also, it sounds as if WorldBuilder will not be available for map creation and editing. The WorldBuilder map is not a straight text file as it was in Civ4. It's a binary format that I've already spent some time reverse engineering. Creating a map editor for the Mac would not be trivial.

Another unanswered question is how to get mods to load on the Mac. I've taken a Windows mod that has the Mac compatibility bit set in its modinfo file, and placed it in my Mac Mods folder. I've enabled the Mods menu item by editing the main menu .lua script, but the mod doesn't show up anywhere. There's another piece to that puzzle.
 
AlanH said:
Yes, Dale's blog post does describe the modinfo file. The XML and lua files can be created in any text editor, and a mod can be packaged using 7z utilities on the Mac. The bit where the Mac will fall over is on graphics. Firaxis have created a custom 3D graphics file format - .gr2, and they provide Nexus as a Windows tool for converting other 3D formats to it. As far as I know, there is no equivalent capability on the Mac.

Also, it sounds as if WorldBuilder will not be available for map creation and editing. The WorldBuilder map is not a straight text file as it was in Civ4. It's a binary format that I've already spent some time reverse engineering. Creating a map editor for the Mac would not be trivial.

Another unanswered question is how to get mods to load on the Mac. I've taken a Windows mod that has the Mac compatibility bit set in its modinfo file, and placed it in my Mac Mods folder. I've enabled the Mods menu item by editing the main menu .lua script, but the mod doesn't show up anywhere. There's another piece to that puzzle.
Click to expand...

We have been promised a working Mod loader, but we haven't been promised a World Builder or a 3d formatter
While you work on reverse engineering WB I'll see if the Porting Team will assist in porting Nexus (or they may have already), worst case do able we have to make it natively
 
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