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Old May 16, 2011, 12:51 AM   #281
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Old May 16, 2011, 02:21 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Thormodr View Post
I most certainly do not work for Paradox or AGEOD. I am not a beta tester either. There is no motive of any kind on my part except that I think that AGEOD is one of the "good guys" and deserves the exposure. A small gaming company that still makes quality games and genuinely cares about their customers. Something that Firaxis seems to have forgotten in their quest to go mass market/casual.
Your signature certainly doesn't entertain your comment about "no motive". Let me remind you:

"It's the responsibility of any fan of Civ to stand up and tell Firaxis and 2K Games in no uncertain terms that this product (Civilization 5 ) is completely unacceptable and that we all deserve better."

There's a whole forum for you to talk about Paradox games. Here's the link.

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I see you are fixated on the graphics.
Your image produced hideous forum formatting. It's usually considered polite to contain such large images in spoiler tags.

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Old May 16, 2011, 04:36 AM   #283
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Strong disaffection with the game doesn't require ulterior motives.

I can't think of a more staggering display of incompetence in a recent big-budget title, the state it shipped in shouldn't have entered testing. The way happiness worked didn't so much allow an exploit as it was fundamentally broken, and ANY serious mathematically-inclined player should have noticed this straight away.
A traditional strategy game that is designed by people who don't think like serious, mathematically inclined players is bound to suck (which unfortunately doesn't necessarily equal commercial failure).

Yes, that problem was easily fixed while others still plague the game... but it was a very telling one because it was so basic and yet so crippling. Like building a car without brakes. Even if the obvious is fixed later, it means someone wasn't thinking initially and nobody was doing meaningful testing of a pre-production model.
If serious testing had taken place, this would have overshadowed the hundreds or thousands of minor issues that should be smoothed out before releasing version 1.0. Now it's too late unless we get a decent-sized team together to rework the flawed system for something like a full-sized expansion pack or a total conversion.

Civ5 gives the strong impression of being made by people who don't understand games or at least doesn't care about them. Lots and lots of clicks per meaningful choice, a fragile combat that needs to be propped up by systematically butchering everything else, lazy forumspeak in official game terms...
there are worse games, but few that were as disappointing.
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Old May 16, 2011, 07:51 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Iranon View Post
Strong disaffection with the game doesn't require ulterior motives.

I can't think of a more staggering display of incompetence in a recent big-budget title, the state it shipped in shouldn't have entered testing. The way happiness worked didn't so much allow an exploit as it was fundamentally broken, and ANY serious mathematically-inclined player should have noticed this straight away.
A traditional strategy game that is designed by people who don't think like serious, mathematically inclined players is bound to suck (which unfortunately doesn't necessarily equal commercial failure).

Yes, that problem was easily fixed while others still plague the game... but it was a very telling one because it was so basic and yet so crippling. Like building a car without brakes. Even if the obvious is fixed later, it means someone wasn't thinking initially and nobody was doing meaningful testing of a pre-production model.
If serious testing had taken place, this would have overshadowed the hundreds or thousands of minor issues that should be smoothed out before releasing version 1.0. Now it's too late unless we get a decent-sized team together to rework the flawed system for something like a full-sized expansion pack or a total conversion.

Civ5 gives the strong impression of being made by people who don't understand games or at least doesn't care about them. Lots and lots of clicks per meaningful choice, a fragile combat that needs to be propped up by systematically butchering everything else, lazy forumspeak in official game terms...
there are worse games, but few that were as disappointing.
I agree. The game was badly designed from the get go and this was compounded by it being released far too early. It's like they had an initial idea that was flawed and they kept trying to pound that square peg into that round hole. This wasted time and only compounded the problem.

It seemed that they struggled with this problem for quite awhile and then 2K Games put the pressure on them to release the game early in order to cash in. They needed the money to satisfy their shareholders and make their year end report look good. Then laying off/firing a large number of staff made things even worse.

It's been a big mess from start to finish that was only saved from being an absolute disaster by loyal Civ fans for buying this crap and for the Frankenstein team for doing their best to guide them in the right direction. Firaxis and 2K Games should really count their blessings and hopefully they have learned their lesson after all of this. Next time (Civ VI, if that indeed does get made) they may not be so lucky if they are so brazen to attempt this again.

Anyway, as bad as the game was, it has opened my eyes to new game companies that I had never heard of before, like AGEOD. In that way, there is a silver lining at least.
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Old May 16, 2011, 04:35 PM   #285
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Anyway, as bad as the game was, it has opened my eyes to new game companies that I had never heard of before [...] In that way, there is a silver lining at least.
This is literally the best thing I got out of purchasing civ5.

I know I bash on civ5 a lot, but I loved 3 and 4 so much that 5 really disappointed and broke my enchantment with the series.
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Don't tell me I can't post here just because I don't enjoy civ5. I'm allowed to express my opinion civilly, yet civ5 defenders seem to resort to insults and attack me personally. Why are they so upset?
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Old May 16, 2011, 10:06 PM   #286
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One must also remember the new dimension.......the big push for customers to pre-order the Civ5 digital download. Once orders are placed and money changes hands, it is very entangling for 2K Games on many levels to miss such a precise "delivery" even for the sake of unforeseen last minute difficulties in developement.

Regarding the question raised by a poster's refference to a Civ6.........what makes anyone think there may even be one? 2K put Sid Meiers to "work" on Civ World and one can speculate this may have been mostly to associate his name with the new venture. Possibly it's things like that which will represent the future interest 2K Games has for Civ (Civ5 certainly can be accused of being dumbed down for a mass media target) or perhaps the series will be morphed into a new one as has happened with some other games.

Moreover, I appreciate Thormodr and his confidence in Paradox Interactive. I ordered Europa Universalis III for reasons that have little to do with Civ5. It looks good so I'm going to try it. I have purchased games from them before and I think Thormodr is simply sharing his enthusiasm with us for something he enjoys.

I do, however, find it interesting that the Civfanatics Forum has had such a problem with people being accused of working for 2K Games/Firaxis that it has had to take special measures. (Although it is quite civil of the moderators to apply such restrictions to "both sides of the fence".)

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Old May 16, 2011, 11:50 PM   #287
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Although I had my doubts about the gameplay (1upt made me wonder 'How the heck are they going to pull this off well?'), it was the marketing decisions that saved me from buying it immediately. I'm generally quite the sucker for limited editions as well.

But Steam requirement, pre-order bonuses and non-transparent plans for DLC right from the start -> 'I'm going to wait until I get a deal that won't make me feel milked like a cow'.

*

Civ5 is't an isolated case, mainstream gaming is becoming worse about the same way Hollywood did when everything needed to be a blockbuster. Fortunately, indie developers give us some fresh air and niche developers still take fans of their genre seriously.
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Old May 17, 2011, 02:01 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Iranon View Post
Although I had my doubts about the gameplay (1upt made me wonder 'How the heck are they going to pull this off well?'), it was the marketing decisions that saved me from buying it immediately. I'm generally quite the sucker for limited editions as well.

But Steam requirement, pre-order bonuses and non-transparent plans for DLC right from the start -> 'I'm going to wait until I get a deal that won't make me feel milked like a cow'.

*

Civ5 is't an isolated case, mainstream gaming is becoming worse about the same way Hollywood did when everything needed to be a blockbuster. Fortunately, indie developers give us some fresh air and niche developers still take fans of their genre seriously.
Yes, that's a good way to look at it. I looked around more and discovered more indie companies and niche developers after the massive disappointment that was Civilization 5 brought reality crashing down to earth. There are many very talented and creative people out there that deserve to be rewarded and I am going to do my part in helping them.

I'm pretty well done with the mass market/big budget titles except for Diablo III. Blizzard may be mass market/big budget but they are a breed apart I think. That game will be spectacular when it finally comes out. Maybe in a few years. Lol.

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Last edited by DaveShack; May 17, 2011 at 11:44 PM.
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Old May 17, 2011, 03:13 PM   #289
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playing hard in civ5 .... big time

i'm frustrated about how difficulty is set up in this game. i'm sorry but the only point in playing hard is to press enter more often, to get bypassed for wonders and to have less happiness and ESPECIALLY less gold.

the AI does spawn more units, is more agressive and settles in my ground more often BUT is no way better. other civs don't seek victory HARDER. they are AS BAD AS BEFORE for mass-invading continents through sea...

i'm tired of struggling with deficit when i have 6 units and when being friend with a City-state cost 1000 gold so i'm back at playing warlord, winning all the time...

Moderator Action: Merged into the rants thread. If you're going to post a thread, please make sure it includes discussion material; this involves asking questions rather than just making a statement.

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Old May 17, 2011, 03:19 PM   #290
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maybe try something in the middle? Personally emperor is my sweet spot. Fun, challenging games but not constant carpets-of-doom everywhere.
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Old May 17, 2011, 04:40 PM   #291
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The battles are much more satisfying and epic on the hardest levels.
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Old May 17, 2011, 04:46 PM   #292
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Jim, also bump up the time scale and map size to allow you to exploit the AI's weakness (tactical combat & strategic positioning) and offset their "cheat" advantages a bit.

Fight defensively at first, and always take the NC route.
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Old May 17, 2011, 04:51 PM   #293
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What is the NC route?
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Old May 17, 2011, 05:08 PM   #294
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NC = national college. So the NC route is usually NC before expanding, or getting a settler on the way to writing and buying a library in the second city so you can get that college out ASAP. The general consensus i that it's a pretty strong start, and probably one of the most consistent, but it's not always your best bet.
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Old May 17, 2011, 06:09 PM   #295
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Yes, there does appear to be quite a vibrant "PC game only" niche of developers out there who do not require Steam, develope for X-Box or Nintendo, nor would stoop down to the level of Facebook gaming. I would agree that the direction some game companies are following has had the effect of making one examine and more competetively compare the products of other PC game developers. All in all, that's probably not a bad thing for consumers to do and I feel that I've personally been better off for it and made a few recent PC game purchases as a result.

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Old May 17, 2011, 10:50 PM   #296
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Yes, there does appear to be quite a vibrant "PC game only" niche of developers out there who do not require Steam, develope for X-Box or Nintendo, nor would stoop down to the level of Facebook gaming. I would agree that the direction some game companies are following has had the effect of making one examine and more competetively compare the products of other PC game developers. All in all, that's probably not a bad thing for consumers to do and I feel that I've personally been better off for it and made a few recent PC game purchases as a result.
Definitely is a trend by the "big boys" to dumb down gameplay to make it easier to port over to the consoles. Also trying to cash in on brain numbing facebook games. Concentrate on graphics at the expense of gameplay.

Thankfully, smaller companies are moving into the vacuum created where they can still make quality games at a decent price. The graphics may not always be top notch but the gameplay will usually be solid. The market adjusts quickly.

Baldur's Gate was an excellent RPG. Dragon's Age started dumbing it down while cranking up the graphics. I haven't tried Dragon Age II yet but I hear it's even worse. People are dissatisfied.

Now, I hear people starting to talk about making Baldur's Gate style games again because there is an actual demand for them. Count me in.

Anyway, if you are looking for a light hearted RPG, Terraria looks kind of fun. Dig, fight, explore, build! Lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGo7iMUcxLc

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Old May 19, 2011, 09:46 AM   #297
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Here's my rant.

I'm getting that urge to play Civilization again. But which one? I don't want to play 4 mainly because the graphics are ugly and dated. I also don't want to play because there is a specific way I play all of my games and I never deviate from that path.

I don't want to play 5 because it is a steaming pile of crap. The thing that pisses me off the most about 5 is the OVERWHELMING feeling of "encumbrance". Playing this game is not enjoyable because they put so much crap on your shoulders that weighs you down and prevents you from actually having a good time.

I want to play a classic Epic style game, but in 5, all Epic means is turns are multiplied by 5. Sure you have 5 times longer to play, but it also takes 5 times longer to build anything!

I want to build a Civilization that is robust and prosperous. Truly, a Civ where "the sun never sets". Sorry, after more than 4 cities it will become impossible to maintain happiness and you will never unlock another social policy. Lesson learned? Build fewer cities. Have a small empire. Is THIS the game we all know and love??

I want to build a huge army. Sorry, everything in this game costs an insane amount of money (even the roads). No money to support a large army. Better just have 1 experienced unit that you send everywhere. Furthermore, 1 unit per hex makes it so impossible and frustrating to move more than 1 unit around at a time that I'm not even going to bother.

I want to launch a huge attack on an enemy that occupies another continent with a massive sea borne assault. Sorry, the RIDICULOUS embarkation system in this game coupled with 1 upt makes that so frustrating that it's a logistical nightmare. Furthermore, why risk losing all my units it took 40 turns each to build to an errant pirate ship? Since all pre industrial naval units have a line of sight of no more than, what 2 tiles, it's impossible to protect your units. It can also take 3-4 turns to destroy an enemy ship. And in each turn they can destroy one of your units that it took 40 turns to build!

Simply put, this game is so much work (and frustrating) that it's simply not fun to play. Hopefully I can pick up a copy of BTS.
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Old May 19, 2011, 10:12 AM   #298
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Here's my rant.

I'm getting that urge to play Civilization again. But which one? I don't want to play 4 mainly because the graphics are ugly and dated. I also don't want to play because there is a specific way I play all of my games and I never deviate from that path.

I don't want to play 5 because it is a steaming pile of crap. The thing that pisses me off the most about 5 is the OVERWHELMING feeling of "encumbrance". Playing this game is not enjoyable because they put so much crap on your shoulders that weighs you down and prevents you from actually having a good time.

I want to play a classic Epic style game, but in 5, all Epic means is turns are multiplied by 5. Sure you have 5 times longer to play, but it also takes 5 times longer to build anything!

I want to build a Civilization that is robust and prosperous. Truly, a Civ where "the sun never sets". Sorry, after more than 4 cities it will become impossible to maintain happiness and you will never unlock another social policy. Lesson learned? Build fewer cities. Have a small empire. Is THIS the game we all know and love??

I want to build a huge army. Sorry, everything in this game costs an insane amount of money (even the roads). No money to support a large army. Better just have 1 experienced unit that you send everywhere. Furthermore, 1 unit per hex makes it so impossible and frustrating to move more than 1 unit around at a time that I'm not even going to bother.

I want to launch a huge attack on an enemy that occupies another continent with a massive sea borne assault. Sorry, the RIDICULOUS embarkation system in this game coupled with 1 upt makes that so frustrating that it's a logistical nightmare. Furthermore, why risk losing all my units it took 40 turns each to build to an errant pirate ship? Since all pre industrial naval units have a line of sight of no more than, what 2 tiles, it's impossible to protect your units. It can also take 3-4 turns to destroy an enemy ship. And in each turn they can destroy one of your units that it took 40 turns to build!

Simply put, this game is so much work (and frustrating) that it's simply not fun to play. Hopefully I can pick up a copy of BTS.

By upping the graphics in Civilization 5, they have made it impossible to effectively use large/huge/enormous maps anymore. The designers knew that and focused on small to medium sized maps. So much for epic.

They sent out the mantra that "small is beautiful". Jon Shafer waxed poetically about how he loved his 3 city empires. They repeatedly dodged questions about map size leading up to the game because they knew quite a few people would get pissed off.

The sad thing is that the graphics, which are supposed to be the centerpiece of the game, aren't even cutting edge anyway.
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Old May 19, 2011, 01:14 PM   #299
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Here's my rant.

I'm getting that urge to play Civilization again. But which one? I don't want to play 4 mainly because the graphics are ugly and dated. I also don't want to play because there is a specific way I play all of my games and I never deviate from that path ..... Hopefully I can pick up a copy of BTS.
... and then try the many mods ... you can even play Star Trek ... or a wargame like mine ... or dozens of others.
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Old May 19, 2011, 10:16 PM   #300
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unmet players annoying notifications

what's the point in telling me that an unmet player denounced an unmet player or something to that effect (i don't know if it does the same for research agreements or other stuff but anyways).

i wouldn't say the same if at least i knew one of the 2 but notifying me of things or civs i have no idea about is just annoying and should be taken off the game. PLZ

there are enough annoying notifications or cs requests like that!

Moderator Action: Merged into the Rants thread.

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