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Old May 29, 2011, 12:56 AM   #361
Acronym2
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JohnnyW, I can agree with your post above in that I too find it interesting that the Civ5 forums are trying, to some degree, to get all the rants out of the mainstream and into special threads of their own. In all fairness, though, one can understand this for the sake of those that do like Civ5 and wish to post threads without them always becoming an ideological battle over the game's shortcomings.

In fact, just this situation if taken by itself is very much proof positive that things are not right with Civ5 and I think Firaxis/2k Games, Civfanatic's Forums as well as a great many fans are all very much aware of it even if some won't concede it.

In addition, I have my doubts about any CivVI. You're looking at a time of perhaps four years from now if anything such as that will go into developement at all. I feel that if they did indeed produce another PC Civilization game, it will not be a part of the CivIII-Civ5 line but maybe something disassociated from the traditional Civ series so as to avoid the comparison. Something else to consider is that four years from now, CivIV will be ten years old and most of its fans will no longer be in the age range that 2k Games seems to now regard as their primary market.

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And no <snip> Steam. In fact, no DRM <snip>.[/mod]
Agreed, one of the things I've found quite refreshing about revisiting some of the other PC game companies like Paradox Interactive and purchasing some of their products is an absence of Steam/DRM. I was quite amazed when I installed and played EU:Rome that I didn't even need to have the DVD in the drive when starting the game. About the only restriction I find is that one must register the game in order to download or post user created content on their forums, but I find that not the least bit entangling or invasive.

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Old May 29, 2011, 01:12 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Save_Ferris View Post
Ruined it for you, maybe. But it probably brought more people in than it lost, and has been very profitable. There's a ton of veterans like me that say it's better than the previous one. Given that the DLCs and patches are churning out, plus a new version of civ in a new platform, I'd say the franchise isn't dead yet.
Hmmm...so it has probably brought in more people than it lost? Possibly, because many long time fans were suckered into buying that piece of crap by their slick marketing. Of course, you don't know that for sure and can't back that up. Nobody really knows.

Secondly, you don't know if it truly has been profitable yet. The cost of producing Civilization 5 was quite high as they focused on their fancy graphics.

If they continue to churn out DLC and don't put out a proper expansion that attempts to fix the game's many problems, the series will be in big trouble. A lot of people are sticking around with a wait and see attitude, giving Firaxis the benefit of the doubt. (Something they've lost in my opinion.)

Civilization 6 will be a tough sell as people will be extremely cautious the next time around. They'll have lost a decent portion of their fan base who won't be suckered next time and there is no guarantee that noobs/casuals that bought Civilization 5 won't move on to the next flavour of the week so to speak.

Perhaps not dead yet but on its last legs.
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Old May 29, 2011, 02:18 AM   #363
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Well, Firaxis could package a flaming turd into a box and sell that as "Sid Meier's Civilization VI" and you could say that the franchise isn't dead yet; as they're still using the name. If they use the "Big fat Cross" with resource icons in them, then it's Civilization, right? As most know, they're making Civilization for Facebook. Tell me, is that part of the "franchise" too?

That's the point I think. Civilization V sets a dangerous precedent for those players that loved Civ1-IV (or parts thereof) but do not like V. With the design changes that "featured" in V, it shows the "franchise" is departing what I would consider what I would come to expect from a Civilization game (besides, a lot of the decisions make by Shafer and the production values themselves leave a lot to be desired). Take-Two Interactive owns the IP. They can (and will) do what they bloody well like. However, I do not have to agree with it and if I had another chance, I would not have bought Civ V at all - to show in my small part that I want to send a message to T2 and Sid himself (Sid and I go way back Well, I've bought almost every Microprose and Firaxis game that has existed ) that I, as a paying customer, won't stand for it. Obviously Sid himself isn't going to wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat wondering why I, sadan01, didn't make the purchase... However, if enough people don't buy, they will get the message. But I guess T2 took that away from us with their crafty, deceptive marketing.

Take Two Interactive obviously acquired Firaxis as they were (were) a quality developer and they felt they could capitalize on that. They have fooled a lot of people, myself included. But you know what they say? Fool me once....
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Last edited by Sadan01; May 29, 2011 at 02:19 AM. Reason: Fixed run-on sentences.... Bet you can find more!
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Old May 29, 2011, 04:12 AM   #364
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Couple of days ago I said something good about turning off the CS.
However rant time today.

Is something broken on Immortal?

I tried the last couple of days to play on immortal.
Yeah right. The game CLEARLY cheats even in battles 'on your face'.

Thought yesterday something was wrong, but seeing Darius catapults and knights cheating on movement & attacks was clearly sickening.

Catapults moved over marshes squares, set and fire at the same turn.
Knights captured workers and still attacked my muskets, having travelled more than their movement and two attacks.

Also saw units landing through sea 1 square deep than they should.

Also Darius was having 3 cities, no luxury or iron, but still had plenty of iron units (around 15), and making more than 80 gold per turn. And it was impossible to get to iron through other civs, because I had all the three resources in the continent.
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Old May 29, 2011, 04:41 AM   #365
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Moderator Action: A general note:

You're very welcome to state your opinion (that's the entire purpose of this thread, after all). However, you are not allowed to make attacks on those that you disagree with, whether they be individual posters or groups of posters (i.e. those that like Civ5 or those that do not like Civ5). Please keep this in mind when you are posting.
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Old May 29, 2011, 06:08 AM   #366
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Thought yesterday something was wrong, but seeing Darius catapults and knights cheating on movement & attacks was clearly sickening.
Persian units gets one extra move and +10% combat strength during a golden age.
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Old May 29, 2011, 06:17 AM   #367
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Psy, any more doubts?
Well, I don't really see Shafer bragging in the quoted passage, so I still don't see sufficient support for your previous (rather harsh) statements about him. But we disagree in nuances, and discussing those is probably off-topic in a rants thread.

However, the discussion has enlightened me as to which parts of the AI were indeed written by Shafer, I didn't know that. Thanks!
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Old May 29, 2011, 08:18 AM   #368
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The issues with modern gaming are far broader than Civ 5 and far broader than one designer. Bioware came out with Dragon Age 2. This was also a follow-up to a highly successful game, also "steamlined", and also "aimed at a mass audience". The critics rubber-stamped it - and the fans hated it. DA2 was also rushed, 18 months in development, and sloppy in many ways. But the core problem was the drastic simplification of the core game and design choices aimed at chasing the mass audience. In particular, there is a relentless push across many publishers towards making new games insultingly easy and flashy.

I think that the reason for Civ 5 (and DA2) is pretty simple: corporations desperately want to tap into the FarmVille audience. They see tens of millions of players, and if that is your goal "only" 4 million in sales or so is a failure. Similarly, MMOs are also making their games ultra-easy (go ahead and *try* to die at a low level in a modern game; it's quite difficult to do.) What's the outcome? That's where I have some hope.

Both Civ 5 and DA2 have now sold substantially fewer copies than their precursors did. Both have deeply alienated their core audiences too. So I hope that the lesson learned is that you don't magically get a larger audience by watering your game down. You get a smaller audience, and your fans notice when you cash in.
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Old May 29, 2011, 08:44 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by ohioastronomy View Post
Both Civ 5 and DA2 have now sold substantially fewer copies than their precursors did.
While I'm fairly sure that this is correct, do you have any hard data to support that statement? I haven't seen any numbers from Take2 - which _is_ a point in itself though (companies are very quick to announce "one million copies sold" if it happens in a reasonable timeframe).
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Old May 29, 2011, 09:28 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by ohioastronomy View Post
The issues with modern gaming are far broader than Civ 5 and far broader than one designer. Bioware came out with Dragon Age 2. This was also a follow-up to a highly successful game, also "steamlined", and also "aimed at a mass audience". The critics rubber-stamped it - and the fans hated it. DA2 was also rushed, 18 months in development, and sloppy in many ways. But the core problem was the drastic simplification of the core game and design choices aimed at chasing the mass audience. In particular, there is a relentless push across many publishers towards making new games insultingly easy and flashy.

I think that the reason for Civ 5 (and DA2) is pretty simple: corporations desperately want to tap into the FarmVille audience. They see tens of millions of players, and if that is your goal "only" 4 million in sales or so is a failure. Similarly, MMOs are also making their games ultra-easy (go ahead and *try* to die at a low level in a modern game; it's quite difficult to do.) What's the outcome? That's where I have some hope.

Both Civ 5 and DA2 have now sold substantially fewer copies than their precursors did. Both have deeply alienated their core audiences too. So I hope that the lesson learned is that you don't magically get a larger audience by watering your game down. You get a smaller audience, and your fans notice when you cash in.
There's an old saying: A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

There is indeed a general trend in gaming to dumb things down for the mass market/casuals.

Civilization 5, Dragon Age 2, Sim City Societies, Final Fantasy XIII, etc.

Hopefully enough gamers will fight back, using the most potent weapon of all. One that puts even Giant Death Robots to shame.

Their wallets.
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Old May 29, 2011, 11:51 AM   #371
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Civilization 5, Dragon Age 2, Sim City Societies, Final Fantasy XIII, etc.
i have played all 13 final fantasy except for 11. i thought Final fantasy was lacking alot of the things that made the game fun, i normaly love the lore in FF there is none in FF13 they just rush you though

Civ5 and many other games are going the way of the dodo
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Old May 29, 2011, 02:59 PM   #372
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Civ 5 lacks depth and diplomacy.

Western civs generally suck. (Germany...? lol?)

Thats all really.

Oh, and the game actually didnt work until they patched it. Maybe make Civ 6 actually work before releasing it? Just a thought.
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Old May 29, 2011, 04:26 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Psyringe View Post
While I'm fairly sure that this is correct, do you have any hard data to support that statement? I haven't seen any numbers from Take2 - which _is_ a point in itself though (companies are very quick to announce "one million copies sold" if it happens in a reasonable timeframe).
Exactly. "The absence of the proof is the proof itself". Sherlock Holmes in "The Hound of the Baskerville's". Used a lot in IT Security also...
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Old May 29, 2011, 08:16 PM   #374
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Civ 5 did go for a fairly important shift into selling the game mostly digitally. So I don't know how they did on the sales front, they probably took a small hit in terms of sales, but they likely doubled if not tripled the cost effectiveness by reducing the amount of copies that end up sitting in bargain bins.

So while I don't know if Civ 5 was outsold in it's first 5-6 months, I do believe that they can easily keep working on the product and more content than Civ 4.
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Old May 29, 2011, 08:27 PM   #375
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Civ 5 did go for a fairly important shift into selling the game mostly digitally. So I don't know how they did on the sales front, they probably took a small hit in terms of sales, but they likely doubled if not tripled the cost effectiveness by reducing the amount of copies that end up sitting in bargain bins.

So while I don't know if Civ 5 was outsold in it's first 5-6 months, I do believe that they can easily keep working on the product and more content than Civ 4.
Well, it will be interesting to see anyway.

Sid Meir himself says he's not in favour of religion making a reappearance.

2K Games likely won't want the source code released/AI released either. Soren Johnson said it was a big fight to get that done for cIV. He had some pull though.

Will it be more DLC or a proper expansion?

Digital downloads likely saved them some money but the game was more expensive to produce. That probably is a wash at best.

The series is at a crossroads. Do they keep going down the mass market/casual path or do they double back to try to win back their jilted fans.

We shall see.
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Old May 29, 2011, 11:03 PM   #376
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Well, it will be interesting to see anyway.

Sid Meir himself says he's not in favour of religion making a reappearance.

2K Games likely won't want the source code released/AI released either. Soren Johnson said it was a big fight to get that done for cIV. He had some pull though.

Will it be more DLC or a proper expansion?

Digital downloads likely saved them some money but the game was more expensive to produce. That probably is a wash at best.

The series is at a crossroads. Do they keep going down the mass market/casual path or do they double back to try to win back their jilted fans.

We shall see.
Religion was a cool concept, I loved the "idea" of having something other than Military, Science or Wonder techs to bubble/rush/build a strat around.

However I just about hated most of everything else about it...

Spreading it felt dumb, random or both.

Abusing the AI was a bit dumb with it, making it a bit easy at first to make allies with close border, but harder with people who are far away, which meant that AIs basically were polar opposites of playing against real players till Free Religion, but then when Free religion kicks in everything goes a little funny, since now the guys who are far from your borders are nice to you, but the guys in your face finally wake up a little.

I also never was a huge fan of the Religious war overtone, which wasn't major, but if I wanted them to bring back similar concepts like that one in DLC/Expansions/Whatever I don't really care if they chose to call it something else and stay away from Religion.

Digital download didn't save them "some" money, it saved them a bucketload of money. Were talking about the difference between making 50-80% profit margins for each unit sold and maybe making 5$ per box sold... For an industry where the prices haven't really gone up in 10-15 years, that's kinda great.

Why? Because they can cater to the nerds and don't need to sell 10x more copies to be profitable.

DLC vs Full Expansion... I'm at a crossroad for that one. In 2005-2008 I was all about the Boxes and full expansions. Today, I much prefer the convenience of going Digital, and seeing DLC with reviews where I can pick and choose which one I want and avoid the bad stuff. A little complicated for multiplayer, but in all the Civs I've played so far... I've "tried" to play a multiplayer game... twice? So I think DLC works out a little better for this game, but wouldn't mind a bigger "expansion" DLC than what they have released so far.
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Old May 30, 2011, 12:52 AM   #377
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They'll have lost a decent portion of their fan base who won't be suckered next time and there is no guarantee that noobs/casuals that bought Civilization 5 won't move on to the next flavour of the week so to speak.
Just because they like simpler games doesn't mean they won't be reliable, and they're a growing section of the market. "Hardcore" gamers don't have rights to what they consider a good game any more than "casuals" do.

And could you not call them "noobs"? It's pejorative.
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Old May 30, 2011, 04:38 AM   #378
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I think how much you enjoy Civ V is inversely proportional to how much you played and enjoyed Civ IV, due to failed expectations.

The best I can say for Civ V is that it forced me to buy a new computer just to be able to handle it... and the more modern computer brings with it many blessings, (albeit Civ V is not one of those). And now I have the older compueters all to myself to play as much Civ IV as I want.
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Old May 30, 2011, 04:43 AM   #379
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Just because they like simpler games doesn't mean they won't be reliable, and they're a growing section of the market. "Hardcore" gamers don't have rights to what they consider a good game any more than "casuals" do.

And could you not call them "noobs"? It's pejorative.
Noobs is hardly pejorative. It merely means new players and I wasn't using it in an offensive manner. Meh.

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Newbie or noob is a slang term for a novice or newcomer, or somebody inexperienced in any profession or activity. Contemporary use can particularly refer to a beginner or new user of computers, often concerning Internet activity, such as online gaming[1] or Linux use. [2][3] It can have derogatory connotations, but is also often used for descriptive purposes only, without a value judgment.

The term's origin is uncertain. Earliest uses probably date to late twentieth century U.S. military jargon, though possible precursor terms are much earlier. Variant forms of the noun include newby and newbee, while the related term noob (often spelt n00b) is often used in online gaming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie

Civilization 5 was intended to target casuals, new players who have no experience with the series and don't want to be burdened with a complex game that might want to make them think, Civ Rev players and Farmville players.

That was their target audience. These type of players are easily bored and just as apt to move along to the next interesting thing as they are to stay. Mercurial as players, they can't be counted on for future sales.

Hardcore players bought every game in the series and even bought copies for their friends as presents just to increase the fan base and also to have someone to play with. Rock solid loyal, these type of people could be relied on for future sales. Until now that is. Civilization 5 was a big slap in the face and a wake up call.

It took a lot of nerve to do what Firaxis/2K Games did. Chasing the farmville dream of tens of millions of players in their fanbase, likely they'll end up with only as many players as they started with or even less. *Slow golf clap*
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Old May 30, 2011, 05:39 AM   #380
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Civilization 5 was intended to target casuals
Was it? I'm not convinced. There are a couple of places in the game where it feels like they've rounded down a corner to make the game more approachable, but only a couple1. There isn't any major change in the tone and timbre of how the game is presented, there's no attempt to make the game take a shorter, more "casual friendly" time, there isn't any "gentle easing into" the strategic concepts and they've actually trimmed away a lot of the eye candy (wonder movies, unit voices.)

More importantly, the main thrust of their advertising campaign has been traditional and "industry centric." There hasn't been much work done in changing the perception of the game or in attracting the "people who don't play video-games" crowd.

No, I think the target audience of Civ V truly was us old-timers. Sure, with an added contigent of "and as many new people as we can get", but that's just good business sense. It was still the three million people who've bought Civilization IV who were the main audience for Civ V.



[1] The "feel" I get for the rest of the stuff that's been chopped off and pared down is more "balanced for multiplayer" with a side dish of "simplified for your convenience (and ours)" rather than "aimed at new players."
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