Do you post at the official 2k forum ALSO?

[Atwork]

I ask this for several reasons:

From posts I've read, I gather that those with access to the devs who patrol these fan sites may give more attention to the community participating at the official site. Anyways, 2k Greg and others seem to be a lot more interactive with the community there.

So, personally, I've been a fan of this forum long before I actually became a member. But, I really don't spend much time in the other forums -- don't know why. For the new year, I have resolved to spend more time on the official site -- taking good observations and ideas from here to there and supporting the community there as well.

There is a lot of anger and disappointment in this forum, but also lots of good observations and suggestions. Good ideas and good suggestions should be spread. Other good ideas and suggestions from members in other communities need to be supported. So, what I'm suggesting to others like me, is that we not be exclusive.

I've played all the iterations of CIV dating back to my early childhood -- beginning with Avalon Hills 1982 board game (allegedly not the inspiration to CIV1). I believe that C5 is a work in progress and that it has a long ways to go. But, I don't want to see the game or the franchise fail. If others feel this way, let's make sure we're not confining ourselves to just one forum.


http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/for...ral-Discussion

[Bhoy]

I want them to ditch support of this game completely and move swiftly on to Civ 6 with a new development team/leader. Consider it a write off.

I don't mind paying again if you do it properly next time

[BammBamm]

I'm an active contributor @ 2K Games Forum.

If anyone here truly cares about the franchise, they should consider posting there too.

~ Bamm

[Camikaze]

I'm sceptical as to how much ideas & suggestions are actually taken into consideration by the developers. That is, I don't think what is posted on the forums really specifically impacts on development, other than general sentiment. So posting at the 2K forums would only help to achieve the betterment of the game as far as you think the developers actually listen to specific feedback. Whereas posting here where there is a large modding community would be more helpful in fixing the game through that method. And I'd think developers would look at successful mods over forum posts.

[BammBamm]

...are you a modder, Camikaze?

[markantony]

Does anyone think that Shafer would have taken any notice of the fans? He wanted to make his game and did so.

[moscaverde]

Originally Posted by Camikaze

I'm sceptical as to how much ideas & suggestions are actually taken into consideration by the developers. That is, I don't think what is posted on the forums really specifically impacts on development, other than general sentiment. So posting at the 2K forums would only help to achieve the betterment of the game as far as you think the developers actually listen to specific feedback. Whereas posting here where there is a large modding community would be more helpful in fixing the game through that method. And I'd think developers would look at successful mods over forum posts.

The really big number of ideas and sugestions for Civ 5 (many even before the announcement of Civ 5 development), many good ones, that were ignored, shows this to be true. IMHO, of course.

[Anthropoid]

CivFanatics has always been _THE_ biggest, most devoted, extensive, serious Civ site. If "we" matter to them, the developers/designers/publishers should be listening wherever we "are;" one staff member, logging on here daily to skim the "headlines," taking some notes, copying a few URLs, and then reporting back at a weekly meeting would hardly be an onerous burden on their resources.

My guess is, we have not mattered to them, and maybe still do not. I'll speculate that, they have not had as much of a hit with Civ5 as they hoped, and perhaps have been surprised at the very negative response among some. But unless they see $ I don't think we CivFanatics matter as much as the general market forces. The game was obviously not designed for CivFanatics it was designed for general market; AFAIK, the developers have said as much.

My guess is, listening to the tone at CivFanatics is not what they have (at least up to recently, based on Shafer's departure) really been interested in doing. Given they seemed to have wanted to take the game into a new, much more main stream direction, NOT listening to CivFanatics may well have been what the intent was. I suspect they will listen to "us" only to the extent that they perceive it will pay them more $.

If they want to prove me wrong, then get a couple of your people on here, responding to forumites, engaging in dialogue, being a part of the community for whom you supposedly design games. That is what the developers publishers that I respect and remain loyal to do.

[BammBamm]

Okay. It's obvious that, being a relative newbie to the franchise, and since I've only been registered here since January of 2008, my opinion means dick.

Fine. All I can say is, I've devoted literally THOUSANDS of hours to Sid Meier's Civilization, and I'm not about to throw in the towel.


Is Civ5 perfect?: No.

Are you?

[markantony]

is Civ5 perfect?: No.

Are you?

What does that even mean?

[BammBamm]

It means we can either cry about Civ5's shortcomings like little <snip> or, better yet, we can offer-up constructive criticisms and mod the hell out of it until 2K and Firaxis finally caves in & gives us what we truly want.

Moderator Action: Please watch your language.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/faq.php?faq=updated_rules_2011

[Guardian_PL]

Originally Posted by BammBamm

It means we can either cry about Civ5's shortcomings like little bitces or, better yet, we can offer-up constructive criticisms and mod the hell out of it until 2K and Firaxis finally caves in & gives us what we truly want.

Good luck with that, fans of Master Of Orion are still waiting

What's the point of posting on 2k forums? If you'll dare to criticize any aspect of Civ5 then your thread will get flamed and closed, unless it's full of stupid rage that it'll stay to display how irrational are people unhappy with Civ5

Despite excess mod job here at least on civfanatics I can speak my mind and encounter a lot interesting ideas/opinions.

[DrewBledsoe]

Originally Posted by Anthropoid

CivFanatics has always been _THE_ biggest, most devoted, extensive, serious Civ site. If "we" matter to them, the developers/designers/publishers should be listening wherever we "are;" one staff member, logging on here daily to skim the "headlines," taking some notes, copying a few URLs, and then reporting back at a weekly meeting would hardly be an onerous burden on their resources.

My guess is, we have not mattered to them, and maybe still do not. I'll speculate that, they have not had as much of a hit with Civ5 as they hoped, and perhaps have been surprised at the very negative response among some. But unless they see $ I don't think we CivFanatics matter as much as the general market forces. The game was obviously not designed for CivFanatics it was designed for general market; AFAIK, the developers have said as much.

My guess is, listening to the tone at CivFanatics is not what they have (at least up to recently, based on Shafer's departure) really been interested in doing. Given they seemed to have wanted to take the game into a new, much more main stream direction, NOT listening to CivFanatics may well have been what the intent was. I suspect they will listen to "us" only to the extent that they perceive it will pay them more $.

If they want to prove me wrong, then get a couple of your people on here, responding to forumites, engaging in dialogue, being a part of the community for whom you supposedly design games. That is what the developers publishers that I respect and remain loyal to do.

I really think, that when they hired Shafer, it was with all the good will in the world. Someone must have thought, "here's a guy who can REALLY make a game the hardcore fans will love and appreciate at the same time". But somewhere along the timeline, extra considerations slipped in. The (let's be honest) Children's Civ: CivRev: did well enough, that adding this new consumer base became (one of)the main priority. The eventual CIV 5 release, therefore became a game that really tried to appeal to too large a demographic...anyways...

I'll tell a story that shows how best will often goes sadly wrong...

When Madden 2010 was being designed, I was an active member of Operation Sports forum (the main Madden internet forum), and to our delight, the main designer promised full community consultation for its design. "this is going to be a game designed by you guys", in short. For 11 months, he stuck to his word. He was on the forums on a daily basis, taking and adopting ideas and suggestions, and providing constant feedback about developments. This idea was in, so was this, so was this. I was not alone in thinking that we the community, had helped create Madden 2010 in the way we wanted, a no BS Football simulation game. There was almost a sense of pride....

And then it got released.....

Virtually none of the promised changes made it into the final game, which was really the same game as last year with a bit of glitter on it. Most of the few changes didn't even work properly. The backlash was, well, nasty. The lead designer was publically crucified, accused of being a liar, a cheat, just a PR stunt, and many more things non repeatable. The forum almost went into a meltdown. Rules were bought in of insti-bans for almost any criticism of the devolopers. In real life, the main developer apparently almost had a nervous breakdown, caused by all the hate. He later admitted (as close as he could anyway), that the game that was released, was not the game he wanted or was designing. He stopped almost completely visiting the forums. Next year's version (2011- the current) was worked on without community feedback.

So the point of the story is that in both examples, I truly believe that all the best will in the world was intended. Devs may listen alll they want to very well informed fans, but even with best intentions, sometimes other things get in the way. They often don't get to release the game they really wanted to.

[Ayt]

Originally Posted by BammBamm

Okay. It's obvious that, being a relative newbie to the franchise, and since I've only been registered here since January of 2008, my opinion means dick.

Fine. All I can say is, I've devoted literally THOUSANDS of hours to Sid Meier's Civilization, and I'm not about to throw in the towel.


Is Civ5 perfect?: No.

Are you?

Indeed I am.

[Atwork]

Devs may listen alll they want to very well informed fans, but even with best intentions, sometimes other things get in the way. They often don't get to release the game they really wanted to.

posting at the 2K forums would only help to achieve the betterment of the game as far as you think the developers actually listen to specific feedback

It is a really poor comparison: Madden to CIV. Madden is notorious for pumping out barely improved installments year after year with almost no consideration of the fan base. CIV has been known as a game in which the community is given a lot of consideration -- especially with regards to patches and expansions.

Certainly, the devs have their agenda, but they and their helpers do in fact gather feedback and suggestions from players and especially modders. However, from what I've read, it seems that over time, fewer info gatherers are visiting civfanatics to gather that info.

My point is, we should help deliver constructive feedback to the main forum where people like 2kgreg are more actively involved with the community.

[The_J]

Moderator Action: Preemptive reminder: Bashing other forums is against the forum rules, please remember that.

Originally Posted by BammBamm

If anyone here truly cares about the franchise, they should consider posting there too.

I guess i then don't care .

Originally Posted by markantony

Does anyone think that Shafer would have taken any notice of the fans?

He was a fan himself. So i'd guess yes.

[DrewBledsoe]

Originally Posted by Atwork

It is a really poor comparison: Madden to CIV. Madden is notorious for pumping out barely improved installments year after year with almost no consideration of the fan base. CIV has been known as a game in which the community is given a lot of consideration -- especially with regards to patches and expansions.

Did you actually read my post? The Madden lead designer for 2010, was literally on many times per day, just voicing his ideas to the community, and asking for thoughts and feedback. He might post a vid of some wire work animations, some new ideas for coverage techniques and ask folks if they thought it would work. He would show actual development code, and how certain things were difficult to tweak, as they broke other game aspects. It was the greatest effort, to my knowledge, a developer has ever made in a flagship title, to interact with the community. Unfortunately, it didn't work.

Has anyone from Firaxis ever visited mid development and said for instance..."we're thinking of making roads cost you gpt, what do you think?"....on an open to all internet forum...or...."I'm thinking of making the next Civ 1UPT. Does anyone have any thoughts why this would/wouldn't work".

To my knowledge, absolutely not. The MAIN interaction with the Civ community, is unfortunately to basically ask them how to FIX the already released game. This was true, for III, IV, V and probably will be for VI.

[Atwork]

Did you actually read my post?

Yes I did. My point still holds. Comparing Madden fans' experience in 2010, when for once it seemed that the devs were actually listening to the fan base is NOT the same as fans' experiences with CIV. As I said, the CIV franchise is unique in that it has a strong reputation for listening to the fan base and recognizing their interests and concerns. That 2010 Madden dev was unable to alter the EA Sports/Madden culture is unfortunate. Fortunately for the CIV community, we've come to expect something different and there is no reason to expect less now. Comparing the culture, reputation, history of EA's Madden franchise to Firaxis and CIV is really comparing apples and oranges.

The MAIN interaction with the Civ community, is unfortunately to basically ask them how to FIX the already released game.

Sorry, but that is blatantly not true. Players in the civ community play-test prior to release. Players/modders are involved directly or indirectly post-release. Devs and their helpers patrol the forums, reporting back with feedback and suggestions. There is a real back-and-forth between the devs, modders, and players in the CIV series that is extremely unique and should not be dismissed or mischaracterized.

[ohioastronomy]

The 2K forums have substantially fewer views for threads than people see here, there is a lot lower signal to noise, and the moderation policy squelches critical discussions of the game. On all counts CivFanatics does better (including moderation of threads in a reasonable fashion).

[bryanw1995]

Originally Posted by BammBamm

Okay. It's obvious that, being a relative newbie to the franchise, and since I've only been registered here since January of 2008, my opinion means dick.

Fine. All I can say is, I've devoted literally THOUSANDS of hours to Sid Meier's Civilization, and I'm not about to throw in the towel.


Is Civ5 perfect?: No.

Are you?

you're not going to win this argument. they will zerg rush you if you like the game (as many of us do) and you want to contribute here then you'll be much happier if you don't rise to the bait.