Do you post at the official 2k forum ALSO?

[Atwork]

you're not going to win this argument.

Argument? Seems more like a cat fight.

Anyways.....

I think it is possible to be diplomatic in offering suggestions to the 2k forums. If enough people were to begin posting respectfully at the 2k forums, I think the high ground could be seized. With large numbers of people resorting to diplomatic and respectful means of persuasion, I really think the message would get through (assuming it isn't already).

[Camikaze]

Originally Posted by BammBamm

...are you a modder, Camikaze?

Nope, but my point is that I reckon that if my purpose was to help improve the Civ game, I'd be better off posting here (where there is more exposure to modders) than at the 2K forums (where there is more exposure to developers). Due to the reason that modders are far more likely than developers to take ideas and implement them, and that developers are far more likely to take ideas from mods than from posts.

Originally Posted by moscaverde

The really big number of ideas and sugestions for Civ 5 (many even before the announcement of Civ 5 development), many good ones, that were ignored, shows this to be true. IMHO, of course.

This is precisely what I mean. There were extensive discussions on a solution to SoDs, for example, but they went for 1upt, something that few (if any) fans had called for. And I recall a quote (I think from Dennis Shirk) claiming that the full screen diplomacy was something that fans had vigorously called for, despite the fact that that was simply not the case. It was meant to be a figleaf to the community on what was a non-existent demand.

[BammBamm]

Originally Posted by Camikaze

Nope, but my point is that I reckon that if my purpose was to help improve the Civ game, I'd be better off posting here (where there is more exposure to modders) than at the 2K forums (where there is more exposure to developers). Due to the reason that modders are far more likely than developers to take ideas and implement them, and that developers are far more likely to take ideas from mods than from posts.

I see your point, mate. Sounds like it's high time I roll up my sleeves and slap on a surgeon's mask. I think where some of us disagree is in how best to tackle this operation. While I prefer to use a scalpel, it appears as though many here would rather employ 16-pound sledgehammers, worn-out chainsaws, blowtorches, and rusty pitchforks.

Hippocratically,
Dr. Bamm

[AfterShafter]

I've seen suggestions made in this forum show up directly into patches.

Heck, take the last Civ V patch. It was announced and one of the notes said they were taking out policy storing. A group of forum goes here started to complain quite vocally in the official thread, ran some polls and threads outside it, and it was quite clear that a large part of the audience did not want policy storing entirely removed. A few weeks later, an update on the upcoming patch said they had added policy storing in as a selectable option in the advanced settings.

Could it be coincidence? Sure... But stuff like this has been happening for years. They never did put in my pro/org leader in Civ IV (grumble grumble), but I've seen a lot of changes show into patches that originated in discussions in this forum. Either there have been many, many coincidences, or they DO pay attention to this forum. Seeing as Civ V development team members periodically post here, I'm inclined to believe they are listening, and that belief has been constantly reinforced by patch notes reflecting discussions I've seen in this forum.

Also, I've seen more than a few general ideas that appeared in mods posted here show up in Civ IV too, so they at least pay attention to the modding community's activity.

Honestly though, the incredible outbreak of negative and Gamespot-esque non-constructive dislike of the game has probably made Firaxis a bit less interested in paying attention to this lot. The forum ain't what it was three years ago.

[Nares]

Originally Posted by BammBamm

I see your point, mate. Sounds like it's high time I roll up my sleeves and slap on a surgeon's mask. I think where some of us disagree is in how best to tackle this operation. While I prefer to use a scalpel, it appears as though many here would rather employ 16-pound sledgehammers, worn-out chainsaws, blowtorches, and rusty pitchforks.

I don't understand this.

It's not like the devs use the delicacy of surgeons. They blugeoned classical era warfare recently, basically returning us to the same rifles/cannon/cavalry rushes of CIV.

[BammBamm]

Originally Posted by Nares

I don't understand this.

It's not like the devs use the delicacy of surgeons. They blugeoned classical era warfare recently, basically returning us to the same rifles/cannon/cavalry rushes of CIV.

Well then, good sir, maybe this is where I have an advantage: As a relative newcomer to the series, I'm not nearly as jaded as some of you cynical veterans.

I ask you: Do you recognize any redeeming qualities/improvements having been made in Civ5, or are most of you "old-timers" completely disgusted with this latest iteration?

[Camikaze]

Originally Posted by BammBamm

I see your point, mate. Sounds like it's high time I roll up my sleeves and slap on a surgeon's mask. I think where some of us disagree is in how best to tackle this operation. While I prefer to use a scalpel, it appears as though many here would rather employ 16-pound sledgehammers, worn-out chainsaws, blowtorches, and rusty pitchforks.

Hippocratically,
Dr. Bamm

Oh certainly, I wouldn't think people contributing here in an unproductive manner would be helpful, either. But assuming an good standard of posting from an individual...

[BammBamm]

Indeed, Camikaze.

Perhaps I should simply "learn my place". After all, little boys (like me) should be seen, and not heard.


If anybody needs me, I'll be in the dorm, studying for my Med school midterms.

[Camikaze]

That's not my point at all. I'm not attempting to make any point at all other than I would think it more productive to post here than at the 2K forums. And that's not meant to belittle the 2K forums and those who post at it, because I don't really think the difference is any greater than marginal. My main contention is that every shifting over to posting at 2K is not really going to be all that helpful. If the developers actually care about user feedback, they'll go to where that feedback is, rather than making that feedback come to them.

[Atwork]

I would think it more productive to post here than at the 2K forums

My suggestion is that it is most productive to post at both. The reason is (as I've said multiple times) because I have read that the devs and their info-gathering helpers are coming to this forum less and less. So, if you want more direct access to people communicating directly with the devs, you will probably have more success if you take good ideas from these forums and post them at 2k. That's all.

[markieness]

Originally Posted by Camikaze

That's not my point at all. I'm not attempting to make any point at all other than I would think it more productive to post here than at the 2K forums. And that's not meant to belittle the 2K forums and those who post at it, because I don't really think the difference is any greater than marginal. My main contention is that every shifting over to posting at 2K is not really going to be all that helpful. If the developers actually care about user feedback, they'll go to where that feedback is, rather than making that feedback come to them.

Agreed, and i'd think they do take notice, even somtimes maybe more than they should!

Everyone that posts here is an individual with unique opinions, there are plenty of bad ideas here aswell as good ones! *Cough* GDR *Cough*

Oh, and if anyone one needs me i'll be in my room reading some drama!

Sorry

[BammBamm]

Originally Posted by markieness

Everyone that posts here is an individual with unique opinions, there are plenty of bad ideas here aswell as good ones! *Cough* GDR *Cough*

Oh, and if anyone one needs me i'll be in my room reading some drama!

Sorry

Agreed. And when GDRs were even vaguely hinted at by 2K Greg, I thought, "Yeah... right. "

I guess the "joke" was on me!

[Txurce]

Originally Posted by bryanw1995

you're not going to win this argument. they will zerg rush you if you like the game (as many of us do) and you want to contribute here then you'll be much happier if you don't rise to the bait.

Wholeheartedly agree, and would add that I think 2k definitely reads the CFC threads. Many of the big patch ideas were already implemented here in mods. I post on both sites, but 99% of what's interesting originates here. It's not a knock on that forum, but rather a reflection of CFC's deep and committed bench.

[Anthropoid]

Originally Posted by DrewBledsoe

I really think, that when they hired Shafer, it was with all the good will in the world. Someone must have thought, "here's a guy who can REALLY make a game the hardcore fans will love and appreciate at the same time". But somewhere along the timeline, extra considerations slipped in. The (let's be honest) Children's Civ: CivRev: did well enough, that adding this new consumer base became (one of)the main priority. The eventual CIV 5 release, therefore became a game that really tried to appeal to too large a demographic...anyways...

I'll tell a story that shows how best will often goes sadly wrong...

When Madden 2010 was being designed, I was an active member of Operation Sports forum (the main Madden internet forum), and to our delight, the main designer promised full community consultation for its design. "this is going to be a game designed by you guys", in short. For 11 months, he stuck to his word. He was on the forums on a daily basis, taking and adopting ideas and suggestions, and providing constant feedback about developments. This idea was in, so was this, so was this. I was not alone in thinking that we the community, had helped create Madden 2010 in the way we wanted, a no BS Football simulation game. There was almost a sense of pride....

And then it got released.....

Virtually none of the promised changes made it into the final game, which was really the same game as last year with a bit of glitter on it. Most of the few changes didn't even work properly. The backlash was, well, nasty. The lead designer was publically crucified, accused of being a liar, a cheat, just a PR stunt, and many more things non repeatable. The forum almost went into a meltdown. Rules were bought in of insti-bans for almost any criticism of the devolopers. In real life, the main developer apparently almost had a nervous breakdown, caused by all the hate. He later admitted (as close as he could anyway), that the game that was released, was not the game he wanted or was designing. He stopped almost completely visiting the forums. Next year's version (2011- the current) was worked on without community feedback.

So the point of the story is that in both examples, I truly believe that all the best will in the world was intended. Devs may listen alll they want to very well informed fans, but even with best intentions, sometimes other things get in the way. They often don't get to release the game they really wanted to.

Well said Drew, and maybe I'm being too cynical. I would be happy to personally reconcile (as a consumer and fan) with Firaxis, and 2K, i.e., "the developers/publishers." At this point however, based on what they have done to this beloved legacy, they have shattered all trust, betrayed all sympathy, and lost my loyalty entirely. Perhaps it was a manifestation of the best of intentions, but it is a travesty to a beloved piece of art/culture and an important part of my life nonetheless. A _truly_ exceptional Civ5, that built off of the legacy of Civ4 BTS, and showed only minor flaws (and which did not require Steam) would've been enormous for us. Instead, this is what we get: Steam required; game HIGHLY controversial, if not fundamentally broken.

Until I see major signs of a recognition of the gigantic mistakes they have made, and indeed, the fundamental transgressions against the core fanbase and the traditions of the game they have committed, I will never buy another 2K or Firaxis game. I will however, linger here on CivFanatics and the Bethesda forums, etc., for as long as I like.

[Guardian_PL]

Originally Posted by Anthropoid

(...) I will never buy another 2K or Firaxis game. I will however, linger here on CivFanatics and the Bethesda forums, etc., for as long as I like.

Wow, Bethe$da. I've lost any illusions of a good game from them roughly around Morrowind. Frankly, only Daggerfall was good imo, rest was boring pile of crap

[Jenarie]

This forum is home. I may occasionally visit the other one but this is the forum I first met nice people who helped me learn to play better and this is where I stay.

I see your point about spreading good ideas and if I had more time (and ideas! ) I might be more apt to visit both but as it is I'll stay here at home where it's comfortable and let someone else lead the charge.

[Rusty Edge]

Originally Posted by Atwork

I ask this for several reasons:

From posts I've read, I gather that those with access to the devs who patrol these fan sites may give more attention to the community participating at the official site. Anyways, 2k Greg and others seem to be a lot more interactive with the community there.

So, personally, I've been a fan of this forum long before I actually became a member. But, I really don't spend much time in the other forums -- don't know why. For the new year, I have resolved to spend more time on the official site -- taking good observations and ideas from here to there and supporting the community there as well.

There is a lot of anger and disappointment in this forum, but also lots of good observations and suggestions. Good ideas and good suggestions should be spread. Other good ideas and suggestions from members in other communities need to be supported. So, what I'm suggesting to others like me, is that we not be exclusive.

I've played all the iterations of CIV dating back to my early childhood -- beginning with Avalon Hills 1982 board game (allegedly not the inspiration to CIV1). I believe that C5 is a work in progress and that it has a long ways to go. But, I don't want to see the game or the franchise fail. If others feel this way, let's make sure we're not confining ourselves to just one forum.


http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/for...ral-Discussion

No, I don't post over at 2K .
I have lurked. I found the moderating bodering on sensorship. I never registered or posted.

I will say that I found a couple of the posters here at CFC embarrassingly uncivil, to the point of them asking Elizabeth to leave. It wouldn't surpise me if they drove Gregg away also, but I wouldn't know because I've since avoided many of the negative threads, posted less and spent my time playing V.

It's great to be posting with friends like Drew, Camikaze, Anthropoid and AfterShafter again. All of us care about the series. I suspect all of us might have enjoyed another IV expansion which made the game even more complex and less accessible to a wider market. I agree with Drew about good intentions, Camikaze about threads in the ideas & suggestions subforum about the SOD threads. There was demand for a correction, and many good ideas put forward( in terms of game mechanics ), but I remember a demand for no arbitrary limits, not a demand for 1UPT. I agree with Anthropoid about Steam. I agree with AfterShafter that I've seen too many ideas from CFC incorporated into the game to be a coincidence.

I also post at WePlayCiv.

I'm delighted with V's hexes, natural wonders, scalabillity,the way GGs enhance al nearby units, unique abillities for civs, the fact that some civs have two UUs and the soundtrack. I really like the idea of city states & the attempts to enhance diplomacy, but I think that needs more tweaking. I think V combat is too demanding of the A.I., but it has the makings of a great MP game. Trouble is that needs more work, too.

What made IV the greatest game of all time were the senses of immersion, the feeling that the world was my canvas, and the compelling desire to play "one..more..turn" - just to find out what happens next.

It's not the same in V.

I fell like a steer against a crowdgate, being forced down a narrowing chute.

I feel like I'm forced to war rather than Wonders.

There are basically improvements to enable special resources, and trading posts for everywwhere else, so that I'm encouraged to make my empire look like a vast tent refugee encampment. Since roads and railroads are for linking cities by the shortest possible routes, workers are tedious rather than a series of small , important decisions.

I am basically forced into adopting one strategy for victory early on. I think it has a lot to do with the social policy sytem. I'm not sure how to fix it. I think I'd change the escalating cost of additional policies somehow. Maybe policies need to be priced according to tier, or additional policies in the same branch should cost the same, even if the threshold policies remained on an escalting scale, or maybe it needs to work like the tech tree, with less advanced policies becoming cheaper as time goes by.

I'm going to play some more. Maybe I can eventually come up with an idea to improve the game.