Best Social Policy Branch

[Camikaze]

So there have probably been polls on this before, but I couldn't find one post-December patch. So, what do you think is the best social policy branch? I'm being deliberately vague here, and the poll isn't multiple choice, so you're going to have to pick one. So what is the best social policy branch, all things considered, and why is it so?

Tradition

Spoiler:

The growth bonus is pretty good for helping to build a productive capital early on. Aristocracy is pretty important if you plan on pursuing wonders, and Oligarchy is very useful for war. Legalism and monarchy don't seem all that powerful, but Landed Elite can be very useful if you want to make the most of your cities.

Liberty

Spoiler:

The settler construction boost can be nice early in the game, but it's not something that's going to be all that useful after the beginning. All the other policies seem nice to have, but not essential. IMO, there are better alternatives out there.

Honor

Spoiler:

Honor is great if you are waging a war. The bonus against barbs can be quite nice early on, but the real prize is Professional Army, which can save you thousands late on in the game. Warrior Code can be useful for the great general it will provide you with for an early war.

Piety

Spoiler:

Extra happiness is a nice thing, although 2 isn't going to make much difference to you. Golden ages are always great, so Reformation can be something to keep up your sleeve, and Free Religion is obviously great too. Theocracy can also be quite useful, and when you combine these happiness boosts with Mandate of Heaven and Organised Religion, you're maximising your gains.

Patronage

Spoiler:

Helping you hold onto your city states is good, allowing you to maximise your gains. Scholasticism is very nice, and Educated Elite is pretty neat as well, assuming you have a bunch of allies.

Commerce

Spoiler:

No real stand outs in this tree, although pretty much everything will give you a nice boost. Mercantilism is the equivalent of Big Ben, and the extra production from Merchant Navy is always welcome!

Rationalism

Spoiler:

Four turn Golden Age is quite a nice boost to get; by the time you get to Rationalism, you'll be getting more out of your golden ages. All policies in this branch are nice boosts to science (except for Humanism, which is a nice boost to happiness), with the end goal being Scientific Revolution; two techs in the late stage of the game can be massive.

Freedom

Spoiler:

Constitution and Free Speech are absolutely massive and entirely essential in a cultural game, but the other policies leave something to be desired. Civil Society is quite nice, and you can leverage the maximum benefit out of the other two, but I wouldn't think that these three are the most desirable policies in the game.

Autocracy

Spoiler:

Autocracy would appear at first glance to be exceptionally powerful, because each of the bonuses provide a fantastic boost to warfare. But coming so late in the game, when policies are more expensive, you're going to have a hard time getting through the branch.

Order

Spoiler:

Communism is the end goal in picking this tree, and an extra 5 production in each city is a fantastic bonus. But none of the other policies are mind blowing, even if they do provide nice bonuses. Nationalism is notably inferior to Oligarchy, for instance.

[Treso]

Spoiler:

Piety IMO

[lilnev]

The left side of Patronage wins. I used to love Rationalism, until I figured out just how strong Scholasticism is (often roughly doubling my research during the mid-game). I'm also fond of the right side of Commerce. The first two are "meh", but combining Mercantilism with Big Ben is very strong, and the last SP on that branch is worth a lot of happiness late-game. In theory the center branch of Order is strong, but I'm often forced to annex a bunch of my puppets (for happiness reasons) before I can get there.

[Bibor]

All things considered - piety. It's the only universally beneficial tree. Large civ, small civ, bunch of city-states, no city-states, war, peace, Piety gets you 25% more population, an "on-demand" golden age and an extra policy elsewhere. Even an OCC culture game will want to go Piety at some point.

[abone734]

Honor - before they nerfed the XP from 2.0 to 1.5.

[DaveMcW]

Originally Posted by lilnev

I figured out just how strong Scholasticism is (often roughly doubling my research during the mid-game).

Your research must really suck.

[Poomermon]

I try to go for a massive puppet empire every game and these are the policies I usually pick.

Early game tradition is the king. Bonus growth in capital and cheaper wonders stay good the whole game. Liberty and honor were nerfed too much to compete with that.

Mid game I go for piety and massive happiness boost of theocracy. That is the single most powerful policy in the game and worth taking 2 sub par policies to get there. After that I usually aim for Scholasticism in patronage tree unless the city states in the map suck too much.

Late game I usually aim for the powerful order policies of communism and planned economy. If I haven't gotten to industrial era yet I probably pick rest of piety or patronage policies. Single point in freedom is also advisable for the happiness boost. Rationalism is good but I just like theocracy too much to skip it. Commerce could be good for an archipelago map but otherwise it's not worth it and autocracy just can't compete with the awesome order tree.

Generally speaking it's hard to say which tree is the best. Order is probably the most powerful but it comes way late. Piety has the awesome theocracy but also some crappy policies. Tradition is no-brainer early game but obviously not that powerful compared to later trees. My pick for the best branch is the patronage tree. If you plan to go for a mass city state allies it saves you a ton of cash and gives you a really nice science boost just when you need it plus extra great people are nice too.

[dubrown]

The tree I tend to use in every game is commerce, and the right side of it, not the left unless on a watermap. So I voted commerce for that general usefulness. Since the patch and no saving of policies tradition is another I tend to use early in the game so I could've voted on that one as well, nice early bonuses for almost any game.

[Airey]

My vote goes to Patronage, post patch, city state bonuses are more realistic, with AI competing for them.

- Aesthetics: useful in repairing relationship after AI's DOW
- Scholasticism: research bonus while looking small/low on score chart is useful on higher levels
- Cultural Diplomacy: good for early midgame happy cap relief, game dependent though, decrease effect if all CS have same luxury resources

It takes several victory conditions out for the AI, or at least slows it down by alot.
In directly, it's the only policy tree that affects AI on a "Relative" base:
+1 for player, -1 for AI, netting difference of 2.
Balance, covers all 3 areas of empire: military, science, culture:
- there are ways to incorporate all 3 different CS ally into early game strategy.
- obviously useless if not meeting any city states post T50
City State ally also distracts AI's DOW and
having almost all CS allies, pretty much guaranteeing multiple source for late game resources.
City states have nasty habit of having the same tech as the tech leader, it's useful @ all levels whether the Player dominates in tech lead, or playing catch up to the AI.

Having said that, I found having a combination of trees, leveraging @ different era the strongest
ie Tradition Lv1: surplus food + 50% all game long as the 1st policy is prob beneficial in all strategies
Freedom Lv1+Civil Society @ developing super Science city midgame when city's BFC run out of food tiles, specialists actually increase growth rate and auto manages their own happy cap

[Camikaze]

For me I think it's a toss up between Piety and Patronage. As Bibor comments, Piety is always useful, but then again, assuming you will be utilising City States (and I'm unsure of a situation in which it wouldn't be beneficial to do so), Patronage is always going to be useful.

[Tabarnak]

Piety is top ranked for large civs. Combined with extra golden ages, you have everything you want. Hammers,gold and science. In fact, Liberty come close second if i choose a combo of these 2 branches and manage to get a large civ somewhere in early ADs. Good synergy between Liberty and Piety.

[Bibor]

Originally Posted by Camikaze

For me I think it's a toss up between Piety and Patronage. As Bibor comments, Piety is always useful, but then again, assuming you will be utilising City States (and I'm unsure of a situation in which it wouldn't be beneficial to do so), Patronage is always going to be useful.

The patronage tree only makes sense if you control at least half of the city-states on the map. I've seen resource boosts and science boosts of over 30% to my empire with Patronage. No doubt the whole tree, if you invest into CS-es is very powerful.

[Airey]

Originally Posted by Bibor

The patronage tree only makes sense if you control at least half of the city-states on the map. I've seen resource boosts and science boosts of over 30% to my empire with Patronage. No doubt the whole tree, if you invest into CS-es is very powerful.

I am curious to see the tech rate of the 2 early strategies:
Piety + early RAs vs Patronage + early CS allies
- both are strong strategies but requires planning and commitment from turn 0 to end game
- used to do Piety and early RAs, but I wasn't very good at it
- kept thinking RA helping AI as well simply speeds up global tech rate
- looking forward to picking up tips from your current Video

Originally Posted by Tabarnak

Piety is top ranked for large civs. Combined with extra golden ages, you have everything you want. Hammers,gold and science. In fact, Liberty come close second if i choose a combo of these 2 branches and manage to get a large civ somewhere in early ADs. Good synergy between Liberty and Piety.

Large empire is good, with it comes with trying to fight off multiple AIs during midgame due to the high scoring nature of # of cities own.
- AIs seems uninterested in taking 5 human cities with 10 infantry when other AIs got 15+ cities

Golden Age:
- most Patronage game's GA comes from bulbing Great person,
- happy golden age generated in a game with Peity is much < than # of GP spawned

Piety + large empire = excessive $
- can use on RA and rushbuy building/unit
- with the current Diplomacy setup, pretty much renders RA cancelled to chance of DOW

I know Patronage is unpopular, just bring up some new ideas:
- CS isn't as strong as full city, they're like mini-satellite cities that
- gets bonus like AI, fast buildings, science multipliers
- don't need to setup to get Culture/Science
- no need to defend, usually can defend themselves with coordinated tech path

Military/culture CS frees up city build queue to focus on happy/money buildings
- excessive units from Military CS allows 1 city + mass puppeting set up = lots of Social Policies
- planned tech path that obsoletes ancient units early, will spawn current unit types, increase power rating, save upgrade cost (250G to upgrade to infantry vs 250/500 to buy CS)

[MasterMishi]

There is no best. Policies don't always make the difference in a game's outcome. But based on the few games I have seen a policy decision as game breaking, if I had to commit to only one tree...in order of my preference:

Liberty: Best in most situations. REXing is so strong if you grab the best city spots. I find it is the game changing decision in the anc era that makes such an impact. Weak if they gambit honour and can early rush.

Tradition: Great for safe start wonderwhoring/ peace build fest and defensive rush counter attack.

Patronage is not good if you are in war from anc era, you need upgrade gold to compete. But if you are peace early and have gold your army gets half built for you.

Honour: Experience and extra flanking is great. That early general is strong but you need to rush very quick to get advantage.

Order: Stalemate games can by swung once in Ind era with order.

Autocracy: Sometimes Autocracy wins the late war.

Rationalism: Buildfest science wins policy. Get to infantry quicker? If they let you...

Piety: Good for spoils or war puppetting or big empire with fewer lux and culture win.

Freedom: Good for culture win

Commerce: Good for coastal maps

[i_imperator]

Commerce can be good if you have alot of coast and if you ICS. TMIT showed this in his Japan Lp.

[Deussu]

I tend to like Tradition the most, as it comes early and helps you early. Also Aristocracy = you are Egypt, Monarchy = comparable to Commerce's initial bonus, Landed Elite = Angkor Wat, and Oligarchy is the better Great Wall. Simply put it aids in nearly all areas. That, of course, can be a bad thing as it speacilizes in none.

I was thinking about Piety as well. I tend to like it quite as much. Commerce is a must-have for me in (nearly) every game, but I very rarely fill all the 5 boxes. Inland empire wants the right branch, sea empire the left.

[lilnev]

Originally Posted by DaveMcW

Your research must really suck.

I keep up just fine on Deity. When I say "double my research in the midgame," I mean "jump from ~50 bpt (mostly in my NC capital) to over 100 when I take Scholasticism around 1 AD." I don't even bother with Universities anymore, except maybe in the capital if there's nothing more pressing.

I suspect you're underestimating the power of CS's. The first 3 or 4 effectively pay for themselves -- they come with a luxury, meaning I can sell all of mine. I don't keep any salable luxury (or most strategics) until I control all of the CS luxuries, and still need more happy. After that, thanks to Patronage policies, I'm paying 250 gold for ~40 loyalty, which decays over 53 turns = about 5 gold per turn. For an ally that's probably contributing 10 beakers per turn. 1 gold = 2 beakers is ridiculously good.

Oh, and they come with another bonus: food, or culture, or units. Those are pretty good, too.

[Fluxx]

While the thread motivates the discussion of every SP tree, the direct power comparison of Policy A to Policy B is pointless.

If you would be able to acces the Order SP in 4000 BC, you would choose it over at least half the other SP's. Autocracy also tops Honor in almost every field.

In general actually most trees are almost pointless, the way Culture gain now works, and the trees at the same time are limited to your tech standing.

In another thread I advocated GA's to give free Social Policies so you could actually take advantage of certain policies before their merits come to late.

All medieval and lower tech SP's are superior in every way because of the simple fact that you make use of them when it actually matters.

[MadDjinn]

As usual, 'it depends'.

Mixing and matching policies is the most important. Knowing your civ and map is also key. What are you trying to do?

Autocracy is the only one I pretty much avoid. I'd rather have Order, and I usually have a pick or two in either Freedom or Liberty.

In general though, Tradition has the longest general usefulness as a policy tree. It also has the most policy mix potential.

Ie, Tradition + Legalism (high pop, less unhappy) + Monarchy + Commerce = enough free gold to cover a lot of buildings or units.

Oligarchy + Landed Elite + Universal Suffrage + Nationalism (+/-wonders, +/- Honor) = nice safe home territory and a safer new territory if you clear an enemy city before removing their units.

Piety is solid as long as you're not looking to see the future era. Otherwise, Rationalism is better. (especially on smaller empires)

The left side of Rationalism is great if you time it right, set up RA blocks and get a few RAs to punch you deep into Industrial. Any Diplomatic VC attempt should use it. (2 free techs+Oxford+GS = just need to hit refrigeration first and then cleanse the top of the tech tree for an early UN start)
On the right side... well, +1 happy/university is the best per x happiness bonus in the game - for ICS. (now) All you need is cities and a university; more universities = more happy. That's clearly better than Protectionism as there's a finite number of lux resources. (and well that useless nerf to Liberty) Getting more science when happy is nice, but realistically, the game is set up to abuse RAs as much as possible, so individual teching isn't as great as it sounds.

[Rittmeyer]

up to IMM, imo, the most consistent strategy envolves piety and patronage, piety taking my vote.

but it seens that on deity you have to take tradition+oligarchy+freedom (ICS package). if I find another way to possibly beat (no culture) that level, I'll review my votes.