version 1.29f - AI cheats, once again?

[Fatal light]

I have a CIV3 which is updated to version 1.29f. My problem is that AI players seems to share everything together, including science, resources and luxeries. I cant stand it. Im playing Regent -level, because I just hate to play against even more cheating AI's.

Now, 1.29f version cheats (Regent level) more than earlier versions. How it is possible that Japanese are 8 tech. further than I am, and they have 2 cities, while I own the half of the map (standard size)? (40 - 50 cities)

And, whats more amazing they keep that distance! I develop new tech every 4 - 9 turn, and all AI players are still ahead? (If some AI player develop a new tech, it seems to share it instantly with other AI players) Indians, which are the second strongest in my current game, have all the possible luxeries and resources available on the map... but their own region holds only 4 luxeries and 5 resources... so... they get the rest free? I mean they dont have money, they dont have any special luxeries to trade... and still they are constantly caught stealing tech. from me... or something else. It costs me 1000 - 2000 gold to steal anything from AI and they are able to steal from me with 10 gold? Now, seriously? I cant predict AI movements if they cheat that much!

And why are they able to grow cities beyoud 12 population, without Hospital? AI get rapidly 20+ population and I cant get even near that. And when I inspect AI's cities, I wonder how AI got that much... without Cathedral and stuff? Come on!!!

What can I do? I want to play a fair game. Is there any way to do that?

[Bifrost]

It doesn't cheat!
But there are some "advantages" for AI, for example the shield amount to build some unit or building is reduced ( as far as I know, sometimes it is 40% of original price)

[DrOrgaZmo]

If the AI didn't cheat, then you'd have an extremely easy game. It would require a vast amount of time and brain cells in order for Firaxis to program an AI so advanced that it could outsmart humans. There's just too many variables in the game. They would also need to program a different AI for each Civ in order to have them take advantage of their civ specific abilities/units and have interesting gameplay. If Firaxis did that, Civ3 wouldn't be released for at least another year.

[morkaphi]

Originally posted by Fatal light
My problem is that AI players seems to share everything together, including science, resources and luxeries.

I don't know if I would consider it a cheat... I would certainly call that an advantage, since AI civs usually trade for dirt cheap from other AI civs, but ask for "fair prices" from human players. However, human players have the advantages too, since we are not hard-coded, we know tricks (sometimes called exploits), and we improve.

Originally posted by Fatal light
And, whats more amazing they keep that distance! I develop new tech every 4 - 9 turn, and all AI players are still ahead?

Hmmm, you don't trade techs with other AI civs? It's hard for me to imagine that you still fall behind with this kind of tech discovery rate. Try to research some techs the AI doesn't priortize, then trade.

Originally posted by Fatal light
...and still they are constantly caught stealing tech. from me... or something else.

Uh, I don't understand that either, they're ahead and they steal tech from you?

Originally posted by Fatal light
And why are they able to grow cities beyoud 12 population, without Hospital?

I don't think AI has this kind of advantage...got a saved game?

BTW, welcome to CFC.

[sumthinelse]

I don't like this aspect of the single player game design either. It has to be one of the top all time hated features.

You could get PTW and play by email.

Or you could create a scenario where the rules -> difficulty level
-> regent -> AI to AI trade rate is set to 100.

Even then I don't think the AI is that interesting. I don't ever play Single Player any more except for testing occasionally.

[wasabi]

Just face it they all cheat lets live with it anyways i could beat them if they cheat so can you!

[wilbill]

Originally posted by Fatal light
Now, 1.29f version cheats (Regent level) more than earlier versions. How it is possible that Japanese are 8 tech. further than I am, and they have 2 cities, while I own the half of the map (standard size)? (40 - 50 cities)

Those two cities either have enormous science output and all the Scientific GW's or Japan got that lead when they had more than two cities.

And, whats more amazing they keep that distance! I develop new tech every 4 - 9 turn, and all AI players are still ahead?

Never seen that happen at Regent. AI has no research advantage at Regent IIRC. Only Monarch and higher.

(If some AI player develop a new tech, it seems to share it instantly with other AI players)

They don't "share" them, they trade them. Make contact with the AI's frequently. See when they get a new tech and try to trade for it. When you get a new tech, see what they'll trade for it. It works for human players, too.

It costs me 1000 - 2000 gold to steal anything from AI and they are able to steal from me with 10 gold? Now, seriously? I cant predict AI movements if they cheat that much!

Never seen this happen to this extent at any level. If you have that much gold and that many cities, they shouldn't be even trying to steal techs from you, especially if they're ahead of you by 5 or 6 techs.

And why are they able to grow cities beyoud 12 population, without Hospital? AI get rapidly 20+ population and I cant get even near that.

Never happened to me and haven't heard of it happening to anyone else. Got a gamesave?

[warpstorm]

Originally posted by Fatal light
It costs me 1000 - 2000 gold to steal anything from AI and they are able to steal from me with 10 gold? Now, seriously?

BS. In fact, I've never seen the AI steal tech unless they were just rolling in the dough. I'm nearly 100% certain that they pay the full cost for espionage options. When I've modded the price down they use these options a lot more frequently.

I suspect Fatal Light needs a little more play time to become competitive with the AI. I think one of the main gameplay flaws early players do is to adopt an isolationist policy. They AI doesn't, nor should you. Trade often. Make friends and allies.

The AI does get some bonuses (cheats if you will), but not the ones you've listed. It costs less for them to build and research at levels above Regent. They know the map (kind of). They can use minor deficit spending when trading with other AIs. That's it.

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Fatal light
I have a CIV3 which is updated to version 1.29f. My problem is that AI players seems to share everything together, including science, resources and luxeries. I cant stand it. Im playing Regent -level, because I just hate to play against even more cheating AI's

Now, 1.29f version cheats (Regent level) more than earlier versions. How it is possible that Japanese are 8 tech. further than I am, and they have 2 cities, while I own the half of the map (standard size)? (40 - 50 cities).

Send a save game, and I'll be able to explain, but I'm quite sure the bitter truth is that tha Japanese AI plays better than you. Except for the knowledge cheats (AI knows map/location of units), the only help the AI get on regent is that they allow techs and luxuries to be traded between them for about 80% of the calculated price. This is not a really a cheat, because it means that the selling AI gets less cash, so in one way it hurts the leader but helps the ones that are behind.

And, whats more amazing they keep that distance! I develop new tech every 4 - 9 turn, and all AI players are still ahead? (If some AI player develop a new tech, it seems to share it instantly with other AI players) Indians, which are the second strongest in my current game, have all the possible luxeries and resources available on the map... but their own region holds only 4 luxeries and 5 resources... so... they get the rest free? I mean they dont have money, they dont have any special luxeries to trade... and still they are constantly caught stealing tech. from me... or something else. It costs me 1000 - 2000 gold to steal anything from AI and they are able to steal from me with 10 gold? Now, seriously? I cant predict AI movements if they cheat that much!

They don't cheat at all in any of the above aspects, you must be misunderstanding what's going on. Please post a save game, and I will check it and explain what's going on.

And why are they able to grow cities beyoud 12 population, without Hospital? AI get rapidly 20+ population and I cant get even near that. And when I inspect AI's cities, I wonder how AI got that much... without Cathedral and stuff? Come on!!!

They do not grow above 12 w/o hospitals, that's something you must be dreaming. Once again, post a save game.

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Bifrost
It doesn't cheat!
But there are some "advantages" for AI, for example the shield amount to build some unit or building is reduced ( as far as I know, sometimes it is 40% of original price)

You are correct that the AI gets a 40% shield/growth/research discount, but that's on Deity.

On Regent, the AI build/growth/research cost is identical to yours, and on lower levels, the AI is handicapped.

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne

Send a save game, and I'll be able to explain, but I'm quite sure the bitter truth is that tha Japanese AI plays better than you.

Now that is unnecessarily harsh. Remember, the AI gets a 130% trade advantage at regent. It's not "cheating" but it is an ugly surprise for new players who build libraries and universities early in the game to no avail.

I play PBEM and don't have that problem.

[PersianImmortal]

I can explain the "pop beyond 12 without hospital bit".. see I came across that too.. but if u're behind in techs you will NOT see what advanced techs the AI posseses till u discover the required techs in the path.. so if u're still struggling with the Middle Ages and the AI has discovered Sanitation u wouldn't see it in the diplomacy dialogues till u reach that point yourself.

The only thing that i'd call 'cheating' is that the AI sometimes seems to get more 'movement points' inside my territory.. I'd place units considering them 'safe' but the AI would 'magically' get to them.. at sea even if they don't have the lighthouse, i've witnessed AI transports taking that 'extra' movement to be able to unload their troops etc..

Also during combat, chance seems to favor the AI more..

[Gothmog]

TheUnnecessarilyHarshOne?

Sometimes the truth hurts.

[funkymunky]

I notice this game where I play as the Americans, and every time I learn a new tech, the next turn almost all the other ai's would have it too. If I traded my newly learned tech on the turn I learned it, I could get some pretty good trade for it, but if I waited until the next turn, they would have it by then and I couldn't even trade for it. I at first thought that perhaps it was the Great Library that was giving them all the tech, but this happened after I researched education, which is supposed to make that obsolete. It's one thing for them all to trade with each other easily, but for them to just magically acquire my technologies it rediculous. One might say that they just coincidentally gained the same technology at the same time I did, but I saw this happen 4 times, and every time I would get technology I would check to trade it; the turn I gained the advance they would not have it, but the turn after they always gained it too. It just seems very odd, and not much fun when you're trying to get ahead in building a wonder or some units but can't do anything to gain the edge (in fact, when you take steps to protect your research you are actually penalized because by trading your tech at least you get stuff for it).

[satchel]

Folks, the great majority of people who post on this board have learned to adapt their play to overcome the game's challenges. These players (including myself, at levels up to and including Monarch) can either achieve tech parity or a tech lead at some point in the game, or can win in spite of lagging in tech, at any level of play.

It's not likely that the AI "cheats" for some players and not for others. Therefore, if you are struggling to keep up with the AI, you may find it more fruitful, and ultimately more satisfying, to use the resources this site offers for improving your gameplay. Complaining that the game is cheating against you based upon the fact that you are not winning it really misses the point of both the game, and of this site.

If you are not finding the challenge fun, you have three choices: play at a lower level; learn how to meet the challenge and enjoy the game at a higher level; or stop playing Civ III. I really do not recommend the third option, and hope that those who are not enjoying the game will find satisfaction in one of the first two.

[Phantom Lord]

Originally posted by funkymunky
I notice this game where I play as the Americans, and every time I learn a new tech, the next turn almost all the other ai's would have it too.

Sometimes it only seems to be like that because your foreign advisor won't tell you about other civs building a certain wonder unless you know the necessary tech yourself. Therefore immediately after you discover a tech - let's take gravity as an example - the foreign advisor will pop up and tell you that every other civilization on earth just started to build Newton's University. Then you think "damn, they got that tech in the same round as I did", but in fact they had it for some time already.

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Gothmog
TheUnnecessarilyHarshOne?

Sometimes the truth hurts.

EDIT: Oops.

Do you mean TNO's "Truth" or mine?

I respect both you and TNO for your knowledge of the game.

But....

Well, my point was that although he is probably wrong about "cheating," being behind in techs in the early game does not necessarily mean that you are an unskillful player.

[Arathorn]

Each civilization pays less to discover an advance. If you're the first to discover a tech, by your very action of discovering it, you've made it cheaper for someone else to discover it. And their discovery makes it cheaper for someone else...and/or they trade it immediately.

It's that simple. You can see it yourself, often, when the time to research a tech drops from 15 turns to 10 turns with no change in your financial situation -- somebody else just discovered that tech and made your beaker cost less.

Not a cheat...just the way the game works.

Arathorn

[Gothmog]

Re sumthinelse: I guess I was too subtle. I was refering to the fact that TheNiceOne is often brusque in his approach to forum responses. I myself have felt his sting before when I was vague in a response. I added "Sometimes the truth hurts" primarily with respect to his alias, but also because he is usually correct.

Edit: I see you got it just in time.

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Gothmog
Re sumthinelse: I guess I was too subtle. I was refering to the fact that TheNiceOne is often brusque in his approach to forum responses. I myself have felt his sting before when I was vague in a response. I added "Sometimes the truth hurts" primarily with respect to his alias, but also because he is usually correct.

Edit: I see you got it just in time.

I apologize for my 1st post if you saw it. That is what I was thinking at the time but after I saw your meaning I hit the post button instead of the preview.

I agree that TNO's contributions to civ3 knowledge are excellent.

About the AI to AI trade rate: I think it's still controversial. Even Palehorse76 thought it was "AI cheating" (Since the docs say the game is even at Regent). I don't agree, since Firaxis took the trouble to make it configurable. But I don't play SP any more either.