When SPs start to become a problem

[Treso]

To improve we first need to know what is going wrong.

I think I delay so much my expansions and I even stop settling new cities due the social policies.

I usually play on King and I usually go for the NC start. After NC I build some settlers and settle near resources (luxuries). But I know if I settle to much I will lose the precious SPs. On the other hand I know I need new cities to get more resources, production, population etc.

I tried the Airey's start (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=409853) if I start in a river. It took several turns to build my first settler that the AI just grab everything worth a city to place. I just rushed rifles and get the puppets myself. Of course I need to bribe Alex to gank Bismark with me.

I won the game. Like almost every game I play. I usually wins on King. I would say I can win with any Leader. These game I win as diplomatic, once I didnt have enough production to build the spaceship's parts myself. I just bought the CSs (I was allied with them mostly of the game) and declared war before the UN voting starts.

I could just say that "if this work" why not "still using". But I would like to improve and I know that I cant step next level without being confident to do so. I read this forums and just see that immo+ and deity we need to ICS to win. "The AI rex is insane on higher levels".

So the question is: the SP are a important part of the strategy or its just a bonus? I really need some SPs to win the game or I cant just ignore them and pick as a bonus if my culture allow it?

Discuss please

Thanks for any advice.

[NukeAJS]

It depends on how you want to win. I've gone for domination wins and I got just 5 SPs the whole game.

Here's my outlook/perspective: when I first started playing Civ4, I loved wonders. I loved wonders I didn't even use. After several games, I noticed I was always very low on the ratings chart -- no where near Augustus Caesar in other words. So, I started coming to these forums to learn how to improve. The simplest way to improve is a simple mantra -- if you don't need it, don't build it.

Instead of building 10+ wonders a game, I cut down to two wonders, but I maximize the effective of those two wonders as much as possible and ALWAYS bee-line them to make sure I'll build it. Sometimes I wouldn't build any wonders and just capture them (the wonders). After all, hammers towards an army can be converted to hammers towards a wonder + the units that survive capping the city.

Generally, I've found that the same strategy applies to SPs and wonders in Civ5. Heck, SPs operate just like wonders with the major exception that they can never be stolen from a player -- so in some cases they're better. Although, I'd argue that most of the wonders are better than most of the SPs; however, some are the exactly the same (mercantilism vs. Big Ben, for instance) while some SPs are completely unique (theocracy), but this is not here nor there.

So, SPs are a bonus, just like wonders (unless you're going for a cultural victory of course). They can definitely aid whatever victory you're going for, just like some wonders. But once you get the first 3 or so SPs, don't let them get in your way. There are exceptions to this rule of course -- like if you have to wait two turns to get a SP instead of settling a new city. But overall, if you're going for a non-cultural victory, the game doesn't care how many SPs you have in order to win. SPs just help.

A great example is the standard "settle three cities, start an early war, conquer one civ, get happiness/culture up, form an alliance or two, get military tradition, start more wars, get a Jesus army with three level 10 cannons and four level 10 long-swordsman, puppet every city, start more wars, win." The key part of this strat is military tradition. Any extra SPs would go into commerce, order, and the very beginning of autocracy, but they aren't needed. Hell, even military tradition isn't needed, it just makes getting a Jesus army (maybe it's more historically correct to say Mohamed) 50% quicker.

The other advice I'd give is -- decide on a victory type by turn 50-75 or 3-4 cities and don't look back. If the victory type you choose is not cultural -- disregard SPs unless you have to sacrifice very little to get that SP, like one or two turns for an important SP (ignore doing this for unimportant pre-req SPs like Trade Unions). I probably shouldn't say disregard SPs -- what I mean is don't base your decisions around obtaining them unless you've prioritized them as essential to victory. EX: going for domination victory with a ton of cities almost requires planned economy or getting most the patronage tree for a diplomatic victory.

That's my 2cs at least. I play at the immortal level.

[Smote]

Originally Posted by Treso

To improve we first need to know what is going wrong.

I think I delay so much my expansions and I even stop settling new cities due the social policies.

I usually play on King and I usually go for the NC start. After NC I build some settlers and settle near resources (luxuries). But I know if I settle to much I will lose the precious SPs. On the other hand I know I need new cities to get more resources, production, population etc.

I tried the Airey's start (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=409853) if I start in a river. It took several turns to build my first settler that the AI just grab everything worth a city to place. I just rushed rifles and get the puppets myself. Of course I need to bribe Alex to gank Bismark with me.

I won the game. Like almost every game I play. I usually wins on King. I would say I can win with any Leader. These game I win as diplomatic, once I didnt have enough production to build the spaceship's parts myself. I just bought the CSs (I was allied with them mostly of the game) and declared war before the UN voting starts.

I could just say that "if this work" why not "still using". But I would like to improve and I know that I cant step next level without being confident to do so. I read this forums and just see that immo+ and deity we need to ICS to win. "The AI rex is insane on higher levels".

So the question is: the SP are a important part of the strategy or its just a bonus? I really need some SPs to win the game or I cant just ignore them and pick as a bonus if my culture allow it?

Discuss please

Thanks for any advice.

Non-ICS builds gain an advantage for turns 40-90 [quick], This advantage must be fully exploited via domination + puppetting, or else the game is lost [unless you win via diplomatic/cultural/technological means].

If domination is planned for later than this, ICS is recommended.

[vexing]

Originally Posted by Treso

I read this forums and just see that immo+ and deity we need to ICS to win.

that's not true at all. people can win occ on deity. i just finished up a cultural win as songhai on deity marathon at turn 666 with one city + 35ish puppets, i could have won domination np, i took my initial cities with songhai's muslim cavalry after slingshotting chivalry and took the rest of my cities from the runaway ai (france) after slingshotting military science with a few high level cavalry eating up his infantry.

the main advantages players have are:
brains,
tech slingshots,
social policies,
leveled units.

just leverage each of those as much as possible. you could get by without social policies but they definitely help

[Airey]

Originally Posted by Treso

...immo+ and deity we need to ICS to win. "The AI rex is insane on higher levels".

vexing is right. In my 1st Immortal game, I built 0 settler.

Try not to limit the mind to certain strategies going into a game.
Advices given above are pretty good. Try not to cover everything. Be specific in short/long term goal.
Decide when to leverage Science, when to leverage Military, and execute accordingly.

[Rittmeyer]

that's not true at all. people can win occ on deity. i just finished up a cultural win as songhai on deity marathon at turn 666 with one city + 35ish puppets, i could have won domination np, i took my initial cities with songhai's muslim cavalry after slingshotting chivalry and took the rest of my cities from the runaway ai (france) after slingshotting military science with a few high level cavalry eating up his infantry.

You did this because you play marathon. Slingshoting a nice UU will not work that well at normal speed. Custom settings are what define the viable strategies, and those who are not.

To AIREY:

The OP is wrong about IMM+, as you pointed, but he is right about Deity as far as I know.

Do not compare IMM to Deity. It`s completely different. On IMM it`s so easy to conquer your neighbour with swordsman, longswordsman or whatever. I`m still looking for evidence that this can be done consistently on Deity.

OCC is something else, cultural wins are something else. But for Science and Domination I still doubt there`s any strategy that`s viable apart from ICS.

[vexing]

Originally Posted by Rittmeyer

But for Science and Domination I still doubt there`s any strategy that`s viable apart from ICS.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=410010

[Airey]

Originally Posted by Rittmeyer

You did this because you play marathon.

Game speed was Standard

Originally Posted by Rittmeyer

Slingshoting a nice UU will not work that well at normal speed.

The Minuteman

You do realize we used America.

Originally Posted by Rittmeyer

Do not compare IMM to Deity. It`s completely different. On IMM it`s so easy to conquer your neighbour with swordsman, longswordsman or whatever. I`m still looking for evidence that this can be done consistently on Deity.

1st War was with Rifles.
I don't know how early one fields Rifles @ Deity.
5 Rifles at this date takes Deity city just fine with proper pre scouting.
You are welcome to read my Immortal walkthrough, or participate @ Immortal University.

Originally Posted by Rittmeyer

The OP is wrong about IMM+, as you pointed, but he is right about Deity as far as I know...

OCC is something else, cultural wins are something else. But for Science and Domination I still doubt there`s any strategy that`s viable apart from ICS.

You are right about Deity, it's a bigger jump than to Immortal. I play Deity/Normal/Normal/no Reload offline. Hosted the Immortal game coz I think <10% people play Deity regularly. As others will likely point out, there is no 1 strategy that works for certain level. It's ture from Civ I to Civ V.

Anyways, thread is not about what level I play at. OP is evaluating the pros and cons of increasing Social Policy cost vs settling early cities.

[Smote]

Originally Posted by Airey

Anyways, thread is not about what level I play at. OP is evaluating the pros and cons of increasing Social Policy cost vs settling early cities.

In my games, it usually either:

1. I want social policies.

Small city: Expand very fast up to 2-6 cities. No more ever. Either Tradition -> Aristocracy or Liberty -> Tradition -> Aristocracy [depending on amount of cities/luxuries] is usually best.

2. I don't care

ICS it up. Try to eventually get Theocracy, but don't really worry about it.

[Treso]

How do you build your military to conquer the world with only one city. Or you get your units from military CSs?

[vexing]

Originally Posted by Treso

How do you build your military to conquer the world with only one city. Or you get your units from military CSs?

with a puppet empire? buy them. get heroic epic and armory and they all have +15% and start with 30 exp, which puts them 70 exp from march

[Treso]

I say your first units

[Rittmeyer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rittmeyer
You did this because you play marathon.
Game speed was Standard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rittmeyer
Slingshoting a nice UU will not work that well at normal speed.
The Minuteman

You do realize we used America.

I was quoting the other guy who made references to marathon and winning via Songhai UU.

About you, I'll be waiting to see you beat Deity in an open game. I don't care about which dates you field rifles in IMM, you can't compare that. Deity is not different only on the date you should field something. It's enterily different. To me, in this game, levels up to IMM offer no challenge at all. Deity, on the other hand, is still too hard.

So, that's it, I stick to what I said. If you do a non ICS winning Deity game I'll be interested in learning from you. For now, I don't believe you.

[MadDjinn]

ok, first ICS isn't needed for deity. Trimming up the AIs is, but that's different.

Having cities is a good thing so do it, but you don't *have* to ICS to beat Deity. Remember :- Win != super fast time, it's just win. And well, the size of the map will tell you if you have to make lots of cities or not. See here

anywhom... back on topic:

yeah, it's always a balancing act for me about getting early SPs and expanding. What I'll try to do is time expansion/actually settling cities for just after I get an SP if it's that close.

I also tech jump like crazy so that I have access to all of the SPs as soon as possible, so that even if I'm ICSing, I'll at least get to put some SP picks into the one I really need.

Otherwise, puppets!

[skallben]

If you really want SPs I'd suggest going for +1 culture policy in Liberty tree and spamming monuments. Ofc cramming in Stonehenge would be nice but we all know it's a situational (im)possiblity on higher levels.

[Buccaneer]

I agree with the mantra that if you don't need it, don't build it. Same with SP. They are bonuses and in a non-cultural game, there are only about 5-6 really, really good ones (which 5-6 depends on the type of game you are playing). But getting at some of those 5-6 require getting the prerequisites.

The thing that limits me is that I hate building settlers and thus, ICS. I will not play that way ever (even though I frequently capture a large number of puppets). That probably prevents me from winning a variety of games on Imm/Deity except for OCC.

[gunnthra]

After the initial expansion/conquest phase, figure out which social policies you want, and when you want them. With experience, you can actually estimate the number of policies you'll be able to nab reasonably well. Look at the productive capacities of your cities: will they have the hammers to spare for cultural buildings? Look at the general state of your commerce: will you have the gold to spare for cultural city state alliances? And what is your victory goal? If you're going for a domination win, then those hammers might be better spent on units. If you're going for a science win, then maritime city states should take precedent since population is your raw science resource.

Another thing to consider is how much your cities will benefit from having larger city radii. Having a few core massive cities can be a powerful strategy IF the surrounding land is very fertile for your purposes. But if the land around your cities is only mediocre then thats just one more reason not to build cultural buildings.

Also, when you get culture is just as important as how much. I used to auto build monuments first in my cities before i realized that i was picking up a few policies early game i didn't really need and was missing out on a few late policies that i really wanted. Nabbing Stonehenge can actually be a detriment to your SP strategy if you want just a few from the ancient and classical era but want a lot from the industrial era. This is because the rate at which your culture per turn increases can not match the rate at which the amount required per policy increases (save for cultural victories where multipliers are significantly more effective, and cristo redentor, and that freedom policy, help keep the amount required down).

Hope that helps.

[Airey]

@ Rittmeyer

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Rittmeyer

I was quoting the other guy who made references to marathon and winning via Songhai UU.

maltz's Strategy is actually very good if you read past the setting.
He just lacks the confidence to tackle full size map. Does not = his skill.

Originally Posted by Rittmeyer

Deity is not different only on the date you should field something. It's enterily different.

Yes, I tech faster @ Deity with more City State bonuses
I don't feel like posting screenshots with regards to this issue just to prove something.
This is the strategy forum, not personal ego forum.

Originally Posted by Rittmeyer

Deity, on the other hand, is still too hard.

Lots of good players around the Forum, it's not too hard.
Not 100% winning rate, but there's lots of intangible strategies that isn't on the fourm yet.
And is difficult to explain from scratch.

Originally Posted by Rittmeyer

About you, I'll be waiting to see you beat Deity in an open game.

I will do a live video like Bibor in the near future.
For now, Immortal University and GOTM takes up most of my time.
Nobody needs to learn from me, we learn from each other.
I learned Civ from reading Sisiutil's early ALC before even sign up an account here.
99.9% of the strategies I use comes from some other bright minds

@ MadDjinn:
highest HOF score: 39 turns with Future Start LMAO (funny guy you)

Regards to the Social Policy management:
- like many pointed out, strategize around What to do first
- then When I need it (the Social Policy)
- then How to get there

[Rittmeyer]

ok, first ICS isn't needed for deity. Trimming up the AIs is, but that's different.

Having cities is a good thing so do it, but you don't *have* to ICS to beat Deity. Remember :- Win != super fast time, it's just win. And well, the size of the map will tell you if you have to make lots of cities or not. See here

No one is talking about score here, except from you. I'm talking about not having seen any non-ICS strategies being proposed and proofed for Deity in these boards. I deslike the idea of playing for score, btw.

Yes, I tech faster @ Deity with more City State bonuses
I don't feel like posting screenshots with regards to this issue just to prove something.
This is the strategy forum, not personal ego forum.

You don't post a game or propose a strategy, you are not helping anyone. So in this case, saying you can beat Deity is no more them showing off your ego.

Lots of good players around the Forum, it's not too hard.
Not 100% winning rate, but there's lots of intangible strategies that isn't on the fourm yet.
And is difficult to explain from scratch.

Haven't seen this players showing off Deity strategies (apart from ICS). I'm not talking about videos, in Civ 4 people helped a lot without making any videos. So far, I see a lot of stuff for emperor or immortal, but not for Deity. Again, I don't count cultural victories or OCC.

will do a live video like Bibor in the near future.
For now, Immortal University and GOTM takes up most of my time.
Nobody needs to learn from me, we learn from each other.
I learned Civ from reading Sisiutil's early ALC before even sign up an account here.
99.9% of the strategies I use comes from some other bright minds

I'll be waiting for it. You learned from the guy I mentioned, I learned a lot in Civ IV from people like Snaaty and TMIT (though a never reached Deity there, only IMM). There's nothing wrong with learning from someone when you reach a brickwall, as long as that person is actually helping, and not only saying "I beat Deity without ICS" without any evidence about it or how it's done.

[oawiefga]

To the OP. SP's are useful tools in optimizing your empire to achieve your desired victory condition. They aren't critical unless you are going for the culture win. But there is something magical when you unlock the synergy of culture, happiness, science, and gold. You are the avalanche and the whole world is your ski slope.

Try a different opening and let us know how it goes. As soon as your first city population hits 2 switch production to a settler and do the same with the next city and so on until you have 4-6 cities.