How do push past longswords?

[Soronery]

Deity/quickpace.
Lets say I don't want to attack at all with longswords. Instead I want to launch an attack with rifles.
How the hell do I accomplish this? Even if the AI only has muskets defending he's going to have cannons and ranged up the ass that destroy rifles. If I am fighting England her longbows make it just about impossible to take anything (and she goes tradition...).

I'm having trouble capturing anything before I get artillery/infantry going if I don't attack at the longsword era.

[DaveMcW]

Use research agreement blocking to get rifles before anyone else has muskets.

[Airey]

Originally Posted by Soronery

Deity/quickpace.
Lets say I don't want to attack at all with longswords. Instead I want to launch an attack with rifles.
How the hell do I accomplish this? Even if the AI only has muskets defending he's going to have cannons and ranged up the ass that destroy rifles. If I am fighting England her longbows make it just about impossible to take anything (and she goes tradition...).

I'm having trouble capturing anything before I get artillery/infantry going if I don't attack at the longsword era.

In my experience, with English/China + defense bonus (oligchary/HCastle), you can
a) Rifle vs Cannon
- get English into warring AI (either bribe them, or bribe someone else), making LBow move
- buy OB, find positions for your units to take her capital
- it's usually fast to surround her capital on 3 sides, use instant heal,
- if city has <2 tiles open to attack, then harder

b) wait till Infantry

I am biased towards CS+Scholasticism though. I find RAs make subsequent targets harder to take down. And needs more diplomatic manipulation (AI vs AI). Certain victory types (ie. early Diplomatic) are not affected by faster global tech rate, since Human can out-maneuverer AIs with beelining.

[MadDjinn]

one question:

Why are you insisting to wait til Rifles before attacking an AI on deity? If that's your plan.

Why are you playing deity if you aren't efficient at tech jumping/RA blocking/combat?

Why do you think Longswords is the only other option?

And, realistically, what civ/map type are you playing?

[Smote]

Originally Posted by Soronery

Deity/quickpace.
Lets say I don't want to attack at all with longswords. Instead I want to launch an attack with rifles.
How the hell do I accomplish this? Even if the AI only has muskets defending he's going to have cannons and ranged up the ass that destroy rifles. If I am fighting England her longbows make it just about impossible to take anything (and she goes tradition...).

I'm having trouble capturing anything before I get artillery/infantry going if I don't attack at the longsword era.

Best to follow Dave's advice. He is an expert at luxury-selling/AI diplomacy to gain an edge. I haven't practiced RA blocking or optimizing to have production ready for RA completion times, instead opting to play on multiplayer.

It is very hard to gain a tech edge vs Deity AI. Alternatives to Dave's RA plan is to have small amount of cities and early national college, tech to education, build universities, build pikemen while tech to rifling, use great scientist for rifling.

Your cities need rivers for education beeline to be good. This is so civil service affects your farms, and you have enough population that universities are good. Alternatively, you need some mountains and do Astronomy beeline for observatory+university, then to Rifling.

Using 2 great scientists for Metallurgy+Rifling is key to good rifle rushes. In multiplayer, Oracle, great library, porcelain tower helps get great scientists. Oracle/GL is not feasible for deity, however [maybe porcelain tower is].

Make sure you don't have to travel much, if you are doing any rush on Quick. Build a city/ally a CS next to your target, and upgrade on his border. This maximizes your opportunity window before he catches up on tech. You usually only get about 25 turns or so, so if conquering 2 AIs is the goal, you need to optimize well to do this.


Personally, I find that skipping longswords is wasting time that you can't afford to waste in a deity game. Longsword vs pikeman is a good matchup against deity AI.

[MadDjinn]

Oracle/GL is not feasible for deity, however [maybe porcelain tower is].

sigh...

how many times do I have to say it? Yes it is...

You've just voted for my next video set.

[Airey]

Originally Posted by Smote

It is very hard to gain a tech edge vs Deity AI.

There are other contributing factors, but setting early RAs with multiple AIs puts yourself in this situation.
Yes, even player signs with 8 different AIs, exhausted all $. No war bribes = more likely AI signs RAs with each other.
Everyone tech fast! Beelining and good queuing helps a bit, but it doesn't increase tech parity that much.

Originally Posted by MadDjinn

Oracle/GL is not feasible for deity, however [maybe porcelain tower is].

the AI wonder priority was changed post patch.
before it was 50/50 @ GL.

Originally Posted by MadDjinn

one question:
Why are you insisting to wait til Rifles before attacking an AI on deity? If that's your plan.

I don't think he's insisting. Prob just looking for advice for mid/late game war.

[Soronery]

Originally Posted by MadDjinn

one question:

Why are you insisting to wait til Rifles before attacking an AI on deity? If that's your plan.

Why are you playing deity if you aren't efficient at tech jumping/RA blocking/combat?

Why do you think Longswords is the only other option?

And, realistically, what civ/map type are you playing?

What else are you going to attack with early on if not longswords?
I'm trying to build a new strat.
I'm trying to do a NC first into rexing to about 5 cities beelining into eduction via RAs and getting universities up. This means no real army early game. Lately I've been playing monty for the floating gardens but the civ that I use doesn't matter too much.

[MadDjinn]

Originally Posted by Soronery

What else are you going to attack with early on if not longswords?
I'm trying to build a new strat.
I'm trying to do a NC first into rexing to about 5 cities beelining into eduction via RAs and getting universities up. This means no real army early game. Lately I've been playing monty for the floating gardens but the civ that I use doesn't matter too much.

Anything, including the kitchen sink? The AI is a push over for some time.


ok, for your strat idea:

ensure you speed up the RAs/teching to Education and RA block to ensure you actually get it. You might also consider using a GS generator start, which will require you to ensure RAs for both Education and Acoustics (with the hope that you got Chivalry by that time)

After which, RA block the top of the tech trees, and focus entirely on the bottom. Using GSs and RAs to pop straight up through Rifling. (if you really do it well, you might as well keep it up for Artillery)

[War_Pig]

Originally Posted by MadDjinn

one question:

Why are you insisting to wait til Rifles before attacking an AI on deity? If that's your plan.

Why are you playing deity if you aren't efficient at tech jumping/RA blocking/combat?

Why do you think Longswords is the only other option?

And, realistically, what civ/map type are you playing?

I count three questions there.... sorry couldn't help myself.

[Airey]

Originally Posted by Soronery

What else are you going to attack with early on if not longswords?

try a game that DOWs an AI upon 1st encounter. Some poster suggested that awhile ago.
I thought it was crazy before I tried. Surprisingly he was right. (sorry forgot who you are, cannot properly credit you)

Originally Posted by MadDjinn

ok, for your strat idea:

ensure you speed up the RAs/teching to Education and RA block to ensure you actually get it. You might also consider using a GS generator start, which will require you to ensure RAs for both Education and Acoustics (with the hope that you got Chivalry by that time)

After which, RA block the top of the tech trees, and focus entirely on the bottom. Using GSs and RAs to pop straight up through Rifling. (if you really do it well, you might as well keep it up for Artillery)

random thoughts:
- set a target date of when Capital completes University so the strategy begins to have leverage: calculate how many extra beakers per turn you're getting from doing this
- make sure Capital have large population for max benefit
- compare that date with Steel beeline
- the war with AI will most likely be post Rifle like MadDjinn suggest. If you get to here, the rest should be easy
- might need to spend money on manipulating AI diplomacy in exchange for skipping military builds

Originally Posted by War_Pig

I count three questions there.... sorry couldn't help myself.

exactly, people who worked around the kitchen sink too long shouldn't have to count.

[MadDjinn]

Originally Posted by War_Pig

I count three questions there.... sorry couldn't help myself.

you know, I was wondering how long it would take someone to figure that out.

but your counting is

[NukeAJS]

Great Scientists and research blocking.

It's almost required if your UU is a musketman as well.

[swordspider]

I'd either spam out your UU and at least try to hurt or cripple your primary opponent. If you can't do that for some reason, then being the first with Longs is a huge advantage. If you screw that one up, then likewise first to Rifles. And of course if you screw that one up too, then Infantry is your last hope. If you are still behind at Infantry, then a Domination victory is not in the cards for you.

I saw a guy try to get around me in a battle by b-lining to Infantry, but he forgot one major things which was his ultimate demise- you can't upgrade your units straight to Infantry, they have to cross through a Rifle upgrade first. So even though he won to the tech, he had to try and pump out insanely expensive units, which didn't go very well with my advancing army. He was able to purchase one Infantry unit though, and once that went down, it was clear sailing to his doom.

[Airey]

Originally Posted by swordspider

I saw a guy try to get around me in a battle by b-lining to Infantry, but he forgot one major things which was his ultimate demise- you can't upgrade your units straight to Infantry...

which reminds me...
I "remember":
CS can spawn you Infantry skipping Rifle
(I hope I didn't remember this wrong...remember doing it before
I'll re-confirm this later on with Screenies)