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Old Jun 11, 2011, 10:51 PM   #2341
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I thought she wouldn't have much of an army, but that's just laughable.

Vicky has one city on the eastern side of the lake south of London. I think her last city is on the coast to the east of London.
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Old Jun 11, 2011, 10:56 PM   #2342
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I seem to recall a bug about building a Fort, where you want either the Fort or the Road first. I can't remember which one you want first, though, or whether they fixed the bug in the latest BtS version. We have several turns before it will matter, but does anyone remember the "right order" to connect them in?


Here's a view of Novgorod. Two Macemen, a Cat, no City Walls, and hopefully a Settler that does not feel inclined to leave the City before it dies (silly AI).


Unfortunately, as was stated previously, we will be unable to land our troops until next turn.
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Old Jun 11, 2011, 10:57 PM   #2343
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Vicky has one city on the eastern side of the lake south of London. I think her last city is on the coast to the east of London.
Then I might just be able to attack her last Cities from "Lake London," rather than having to sail around the north. Those troops will likely be at Joao before you know it.
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Old Jun 11, 2011, 11:04 PM   #2344
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Tech update: Isabella and Joao traded with each other:
Isabella gave Theology <-> Joao gave Music



Recall that they are Friendly towards each other.
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Old Jun 11, 2011, 11:08 PM   #2345
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Ragnar is Demanding Currency. I think that we said that we will refuse all Demands... and we don't REALLY care if he declares war on us, right?

I haven't clicked an answer to him yet, but I will soon (the default option is to refuse). Unless you see a reason to get 10 turns of enforced peace?!??!



A Barb Galley appeared to the north of Gold City in between turns, which our Trireme should be able to handle.
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Old Jun 11, 2011, 11:14 PM   #2346
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Apparently, you can be really goofy while waiting to decide what to tell Ragnar and can look at other screens. Here's one of interest:

Ragnar has yet to switch into Hereditary Rule. Likely, he'd use the 10 turns of Enforced Peace to sneakily switch Civics.

Last turn, Isabella was the only AI to be running Theocracy. Now we can see that Joao is running it too, even though the Event Log hasn't told us about that fact yet.

Of course, Cathy and Vicky are geniouses that are staying in Pacifism.
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Old Jun 11, 2011, 11:30 PM   #2347
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Well, I told Ragnar to "stuff it."

Our northern Trireme moved to within 1 square of the Barb Galley, such that we are 1S of it (our Trireme is just to the north of the Crab Island located to the NE of Gold City). Either we'll get attacked or will be able to kill the Barb Galley by attacking it on the following turn.

I decided not to send our second Trireme as backup, since we'll get a Galleon out of Gold City soon enough (the 4th Galleon for use against Joao--the 3rd one will be whipped shortly out of Paris) and because we just got threatened by Ragnar, so I'd rather keep the other Trireme closer to his area, in case he decides to come after us, which would give us sufficient time to respond to such an attack and prevent him from landing troops.

Obviously, I'll watch Ragnar's area and if Ragnar has Galleys coming towards us, we'll proactively declare war.


On the English front, things are going particularly well:
I bombarded with 3 Trebs, attacked with the 4th, and the 4th died. However, it enabled us to use the 3 land-bound Maces to make their kills, so I went for the complete kill with a 4th Mace that was on a Galleon and that I had just promoted to have an Amphibious attack. I figure that the Amphibious promo can potentially allow us to have a couple of units that don't need to spend time unloading and reloading, giving them more turns to potentially be able to heal. Of course, in this case, the bugger unloaded himself, since he was the last unit to attack, but I honestly wasn't planning on taking the City until I saw how good the odds were of our 3rd Macemen attacking and winning, thanks to having healed him due to having taken the Medic promo. Okay, there's a mouthful of a sentence!



London comes complete with the (relatively useless) Hanging Gardens, as well as a Great Prophet. Now we just have to hope that the City won't get counter-attacked in between turns.



By the way, we can now definitely pinpoint Vicky's last 2 Cities, although it looks like we may be better off heading around the northern route? I'll look closer at the situation in a bit.
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Old Jun 11, 2011, 11:38 PM   #2348
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Looks good so far. Keep it rolling.
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Old Jun 11, 2011, 11:59 PM   #2349
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Vicky's Size 1 City was auto-raced, with no casualties on our side of things:



Caught in mid yawn, I surprised Isabella with the following statement:

Dear Isabella, it is time for:
WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR◘ ◘◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘ ◘◘◘WARWARWAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR
◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘ ◘◘◘◘◘WAR◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘ ◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR
◘◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘ ◘◘◘◘WARWARWAR ◘◘◘◘◘◘◘ ◘◘◘WARWARWAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR
◘◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR◘WAR◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘ ◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘ ◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘
◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘ ◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘ ◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘◘◘WAR◘◘◘◘◘WAR



Barcelona gets 2 Macemen and 2 Trebuchet to go up against 1 Archer and 1 Catapult (plus whatever unit may get whipped).

Madrid gets 2 Macemen and 5 Trebuchets to go up against 2 pretty-strong-looking (for Archers) units and its higher Cultural Defence (which does not appear to be supported by a City Wall , so Bombarding should be pretty quick).

I plan to raze both of these Cities unless someone very quickly suggests otherwise.



Here's a look at the defences that we are up against in Novgorod.

Unfortunately, the Settler seems to have disappeared and we are likely to see a remake of the Classic Gem City (which sounds kind of like a horror flick ).




Okay, so the northern route to Vicky looks like it will take us 2.5 turns worth of sailing. So, I don't think that it's any faster than marching our units across the land to get there. I'll double check again next turn, when our land units have movement points remaining, but I think that we're just going to have to slog it across the land.


The good side of things is that there aught to be a Road for our units to be able to march back, thus going by land probably makes more sense, as then our Galleons will be able to head out towards Joao that much sooner.

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Old Jun 12, 2011, 12:10 AM   #2350
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I plan to raze both of these Cities unless someone very quickly suggests otherwise.
Actually, I would like to suggest otherwise, if I do say so myself. Haha!

We have another Maceman and a Pikeman coming and I can Galleon-chain a couple of additional units to the frontline soon enough. It may just pay to keep these Cities for some end-game whipping.

I don't foresee Isabella being able to mount much of a counter-attack, given how lightly her core Cities are defended and thus it shouldn't take much effort to defend them. Being so large and having those juicy-looking Food Resources--it just feels like it would be quite a shame to raze them.

I'll probably stop playing before capturing these Cities, so that we'll have a chance to discuss whether to keep them or to raze them.
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Old Jun 12, 2011, 12:33 AM   #2351
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I'd send the galleons around the north end to pick up the troops once we're done with Vicky. They can sail around the island and head south from there.

Just raze the Spanish cities. We're short maces right now (garrison units) so there's no point keeping them. I'd rather continue to push the war along. Barcelona may have canal uses. Madrid doesn't.
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Old Jun 12, 2011, 12:44 AM   #2352
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Okay, I have advanced the turn but have not done much.

The Barb Galley suicided itself on us.

Ragnar has shown up with a Trireme to the SW of Gold City, but he has yet to declare war. I don't feel like declaring war on him for him just having a Trireme visible.


We have 8 units on 3 Galleons for Joao and the 9th Maceman will be created in Pig Mmm Fish City next turn, followed by it walking for 2 squares on Roads, followed by it boarding the Galleon. So, we're only a few turns away from war on Joao with 9 units.



Isabella attacked us with her Catapult and lost, so Barcelona is defended by a lone Archer, haha!

Madrid was reinforced with a Horse Archer but we have a Galleon within range of amphibious assaulting that has a Pikeman on it, so we should be totally able to capture both of these Cities on this turn.

We just need to decide if we're going to keep them (which are probably some of her highest population Cities and thus the only Cities that I'll advocate keeping--plus are close enough to each other to be able to mutually protect each other, blah, blah, blah, I want to keep them ).



We are now officially prepared for a Diplomatic game... an instant Diplomatic Loss, hehe! I mean, everyone hates us. So, yeah, let's hope that no one builds The Apostolic Palace in a Religion that JUST HAPPENS to be spread to the only AIs left alive at the time. Our total population would not allow us to counter said vote, as it's based on total population under the correct Religion, not total world population. Anyway, that possibility is very unlikely, but whatever, it's more the fact that I have a screenshot where everyone treats us as their Worst Enemy and I wanted to give some filler-text. Still, it's a potential issue (an Apostolic Palace loss) to keep at the backs of our minds.



I haven't attacked anything yet and am just going to upload the game shortly. I have already whipped for the turn (I have been very aggressive on that front) in most Cities, but I still need to decide what to do about Moscow. I'll probably whip an Archer there or something, since we don't have enough Food-based squares to be able to keep the City from shrinking unless we whip away a population point.


So, we still have time to decide on whether to keep or raze each of:
Novgorod
Barcelona
Madrid

I see no reason to keep Vicky's 2 remaining Cities, nor Cathy's 2 western Cities, so those will be razed for certain.

I have yet to get an attack going on Willem as I wanted to be sure to have enough troops at Isabella. I still haven't decided if I'll send 1 more boatload towards Isabella or if we'll be gathering the existing troops for the assault on Willem. Heck, we could even use the existing troops to push after Cathy's SW-most City, just to help kill the Feudalism-knower a couple of turns sooner.

The biggest fear is that if Isabella or Joao learns Feudalism, it could get instantly-traded around between them, which would make it no longer a monopoly tech for Cathy, who would probably trade it to Willem. Ragnar migiht still be left out, but he self-techs it as a high priority, and with every other AI knowing it (Vicky should be dead by then), Ragnar's self-research on Feudalism shouldn't take too long.


Joao has a nice low Power level, and I would like a suggestion on which Cities of his to attack. The southernmost Galleon of the 3 Joao Galleons is where it is located now simply by nature of it having headed directly SE from Marble City, where it picked up its 3rd unit.


Okay, I'll upload the game shortly and then will head off to bed for a good long time.

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Old Jun 12, 2011, 12:51 AM   #2353
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One more thought before bed: if we raze either of Isabella's first two Cities, she may just fill the gap with a Settler. I think that having to recapture either City (particularly Hills-based Madrid, and even moreso if she later gets Feudalism) would be more costly than having to garrison them.

Also, garrison units may attract Catapults and Horse Archers from other Cities, making other Cities easier to assault.

Feel free to look at the saved game and help decide for certain how we're going to do the English logistics and which of Joao's Cities to attack.

Also, I am assuming that we'll head SE next with our Isabella units, while the units going for Cathy could head down the western side of Isabella's continent, taking down the City that we can see there as well as hunting for others in that direction.


Okay, goodnight.
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Old Jun 12, 2011, 02:10 AM   #2354
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We are losing 100 gpt at 30% culture, 52 gpt at 0%. We can't afford to keep any more cities.

For St. Pete and Moscow, just whip a barracks with the whipping penalty. Or some maces.
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Old Jun 12, 2011, 03:22 AM   #2355
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I think we should definitley raise all remaining cities that belong to Vicky and Catherine.

I think we should actually keep Madrid and Barcelona. Barcelona in particular looks like it could be used as a canal city to speed our advance. A far as our budget is concerned, with the slider at 30% most of our cities are actually making a profit, the deficit arises because of the unit support costs, so raising these cities would not actually make much difference to the deficit. I think we should whip theatres in cities that need additional happiness rather than continuing to raise the slider though.

Madrid and Barcelona together should be more than enough to whip any additional reinforcements needed on that front, so I would raise any other city of hers which doesn't either:
1) Have an extra happinees recource.
2) Can be used as a canal
3) Has s huge amount of commerce.


Quote:
Also, I am assuming that we'll head SE next with our Isabella units, while the units going for Cathy could head down the western side of Isabella's continent, taking down the City that we can see there as well as hunting for others in that direction.
We are going to kill Cathy first, before using those units to attack any other AI, right? She is the only AI with feudalism, and we want to minimise the window in which she can gift it to other AI's to DOW us.

Quote:
Feel free to look at the saved game and help decide for certain how we're going to do the English logistics and which of Joao's Cities to attack.
How about we send he galleons around the NE of her continent, to pick up the troops after they have raised the last two of Vicky's cities. They could then proceed to hit Jao's eastern cities, whilst the stack being built in our core goes after his Western cities.
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Old Jun 12, 2011, 03:28 AM   #2356
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As for the Apolictic Palace, the only 2 Civs that could credibly build it are Izzy and Jao. They are both Buddist, and neither Cathy, William, and probably Vicky have any buddist cities, so if we leave at least one of these civs alive until we have broken both Izzys and Jao's backs we are safe from an AP defeat.
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Old Jun 12, 2011, 12:34 PM   #2357
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We are going to kill Cathy first, before using those units to attack any other AI, right? She is the only AI with feudalism, and we want to minimise the window in which she can gift it to other AI's to DOW us.
Yes. I want Cathy dead, too. That's why I suggested that before we go after Willem that we divert the next loaded Galleon coming out of Utrecht to go for Cathy's south-western-most City. That way, the troops at Novgorod only need to destroy the north-western City plus possibly the Settler that sneaked away from Novgorod.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mdy View Post
I think we should definitley raise all remaining cities that belong to Vicky and Catherine.
Agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mdy View Post
I think we should actually keep Madrid and Barcelona. Barcelona in particular looks like it could be used as a canal city to speed our advance. A far as our budget is concerned, with the slider at 30% most of our cities are actually making a profit, the deficit arises because of the unit support costs, so raising these cities would not actually make much difference to the deficit. I think we should whip theatres in cities that need additional happiness rather than continuing to raise the slider though.
Having a couple of Cities near Isabella can also mean a few reduced Unit Supply Costs over time, as there are empty Galleons that need to "wait" and other units that will be passing through that could aim to end their turns inside of our Cultural Borders if doing so "makes no difference" from where they were going to end their turns otherwise.

It also gives us a location to potentially heal majorly-wounded troops quickly, since our Medic III is over at Cathy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mdy View Post
Madrid and Barcelona together should be more than enough to whip any additional reinforcements needed on that front, so I would raise any other city of hers which doesn't either:
1) Have an extra happinees recource.
2) Can be used as a canal
3) Has s huge amount of commerce.
Makes sense to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mdy View Post
How about we send he galleons around the NE of her continent, to pick up the troops after they have raised the last two of Vicky's cities. They could then proceed to hit Jao's eastern cities, whilst the stack being built in our core goes after his Western cities.
I'm fine with that. On my way to bed, I got to thinking: if it takes the same time to march over land with troops as it does to arrive by sailing, then we should sail the troops if they are wounded (which they are), since loading and unloading will equal "moving across the land," but the turns where they are just plain sailing will give a tiny bit of free healing that "continuous marching" won't offer.
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Old Jun 12, 2011, 12:38 PM   #2358
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As for the Apolictic Palace, the only 2 Civs that could credibly build it are Izzy and Jao. They are both Buddist, and neither Cathy, William, and probably Vicky have any buddist cities, so if we leave at least one of these civs alive until we have broken both Izzys and Jao's backs we are safe from an AP defeat.
Joao just received Theology, too, so he's unlikely to build it without the help of a Great Engineer.

Even if it does get built, we'll have time for a vote to arise to figure out a plan of action, which would probably simply involve mobilizing nearby forces to raze the City that contains the Apostolic Palace.

I'm not convinced that I want to delay to eliminate any of the three AIs that you mentioned, since Vicky is so far out of the way and can die now, Cathy has Feudalism, and Willem has a ton of other techs with a low monopoly threashold.

Capturing Isabella's capital should hopefully help in this regard, too, reducing her chance of manually building such a Wonder or of spawning a Great Engineer.
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Old Jun 12, 2011, 12:46 PM   #2359
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We are losing 100 gpt at 30% culture, 52 gpt at 0%. We can't afford to keep any more cities.

For St. Pete and Moscow, just whip a barracks with the whipping penalty. Or some maces.
As for a whipping penalty, there is probably no need. I can whip SOMETHING in Moscow (a Barracks could work, but an Archer should only cost 1 population point so I'll probably do that instead, since if we really want a Barracks, we can whip it without a penalty before completing the Archer). We only need to get rid of 1 population point. (45 * 1.25 for Police State) = 56; 56 / 1.5 for the whipping Penalty = 37 Hammers from an emergecy 1-pop-whip; an Archer costs 37 Hammers exactly.

The trick is that after whipping the Archer, I would immediately set the build item to a Treb/Mace/Pike/whatever (if we had more game turns, I'd consider a Barracks here, but I think that it's too late in the game to build these Buildings).

That way, in 1 turn from now, both Cities will be 2-pop-whipping or 3-pop-whipping, meaning that the Cultural Slider can go back down again.

So, that 30% Culture Slider rate is probably only going to last for a turn.


If we don't get a Lighthouse in Novgorod, though, I will think strongly about razing it, even though I don't see any of Cathy's forces nearby (I do see a Spear, an Axeman and an Archer of Willem's wandering around, though, and those units LOOK like Cathy's but they are orange-coloured instead of red-coloured).
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Old Jun 12, 2011, 01:16 PM   #2360
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Okay, so the plan is:

Vicky
We will use the 3 units that razed the one-population-point City of Canterbury and send them to Vicky's SE City, York. York is defended by a Swordsman (which should die easily) and an Archer on a Hill square with 20% Cultural Defences.

We'll aim to Bomard once then probably suicide the Treb (since it is wounded) followed by attacking with the 2 Maces.

Actually, to avoid this scenario and to give ourselves a bit of backup, I'll probably leave one of the other Trebs around, meaning that we can drop off 1 Maceman (the Maceman that razed Canterbury) and that Treb and drop them off on one turn, then pick up the remaining Mace and Treb and drop them off on the next turn, all courtesy of Lake London.


Of the other 7 units, 5 can board the 2 Galleons, 1 Treb mostly-healthy will be reserved for the south like I said, and the last Mace can stay in London to defend it from a land-based counter-attack from Vicky's NE City, Nottingham.


Since one boat is out of position from having scouted to the north, I will use the southern Galleon in a temporary Galleon chain, so that it doesn't have to lose a turn moving towards London and then away from London (using 2 movement points). I will aim to end the turns of the Galleons on the same squares as each other, since one Galleon is wounded and so that the units inside of the Galleons can use the power of the Maceman Medic on the second turn of them being on the Galleons. On the third turn of the units being on the Galleons, they will be unloading from the Galleons.


So, that plan gives us:
2 Maces and 2 Trebs for York to the SE
1 Mace defender in London
3 Maces and 2 Trebs for Nottingham to the NE


Hastings, our western Canal City, will build a Pikeman thanks to a Forest Chop, after which that City will pretty much be useless.


Isabella
Capture and keep Madrid and Barcelona, which we should be easily able to do on the current turn thanks to our overwhelming forces in the area.

After that, pick up most of the remaining troops and attack Cities to the SE. We can probably send a couple of the Galleons away to form a bit of a Galleon chain. Although the ex-core Cities of Willem have mostly been whipped down, we'll soon get some units coming out of the ex-core cities of Cathy.

Later, some troops, after Cathy is dead, can head down Isabella's western Coast, hunting for Cities and nearby islands that Isabella might have settled.


Cathy
Capture Novgorod this turn. If it keeps its Lighthouse, keep the City. If the Lighthouse disappears, raze the City.


Next, load up the troops and head for he NW City.


In the meantime, gather the next round of forces coming out of Willem's ex-core Cities and send them to Cathy's SW City. That City only had an Axeman, so it will hopefully remain poorly defended (Cathy is still in Caste System and Pacifism).


The Maceman whipped out of St. Petersburg can go to the west of St. Petersburg to look for Cathy's missing Settler.


Joao
Aim to strike when all 3 Galleons are within range. We'll probably go for his capital first and then work our way west from there, then hitting the south-west of his area.


Once the ships at Vicky are done killing her off, they can head to the eastern edge of Joao's empire and work on the Cities there.


Fresh Galleons built from our core can head, say, to any Cities between his ex-capital and the eastern side of his island.


Willem and Ragnar
I haven't figured them out yet, but there will come a time when we'll be able to build units from our core, from Willem's core, and from Cathy's core that won't be able to really reach the front lines of other Civs. If we haven't started to attack these two dudes by that time, then that will be when we hit them.

If I do attack them, I will aim to destroy Willem first with 2 fully-loaded Galleons striking at each of Willem's Cities simultaneously, then will aim to gather troops to take on Ragnar's Ivory City before Ragnar can expand, then would keep Ragnar's Ivory City to block him from expanding to the west.

These two are of lower priority for now; although they are potentially going to get Feudalism, any AI could potentially get Feudalism at this point.
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