[BTS] SGOTM 13 - Phoenix Rising - Page 58

Gumbolt · Apr 28, 2011, 06:30 AM

Play on!

Gumbolt · Apr 28, 2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuge

I wholeheartedly support working a few thousand people to death in the pursuit of a public library.

This game is sometimes pretty f'd up when you stop to think about it.

Hopefully they'll write something useful before we kill em all off. We have killed close to a million people this game just to build a few workboats, settlers, workers and forges. Ho hum!

Jaybone · Apr 28, 2011, 11:06 AM

such is the price of progress

Gumbolt · Apr 28, 2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybone

such is the price of progress

See the Aztecs were not such a bad race afterall.

Even the Egyptians too with their slavery.

Spartacus always said the 'The only freedom a slave knows is death'. We are freeing millions.

bobbyboy29 · Apr 28, 2011, 01:31 PM

OK I will play now. Hope everything goes well!

bobbyboy29 · Apr 28, 2011, 02:50 PM

Turnset is played, here is the log

Spoiler:

Gumbolt · Apr 28, 2011, 03:07 PM

Wow do we even need catapults??? Looks like we could of axe rushed that capital. lol

4-5 maces by naval assault should take it.

That barb galley is a pain.

Shame we didn't get the Circumnaviagtion bonus. Perhaps unlucky.

We found Port!! These seem pissed off with us. Russian cities found too. We are still lagging behind the AI score but they won't know what hit them soon.

No idea why Ragnar still has 3 cities.

Looking good so far. I am up next!!

bobbyboy29 · Apr 28, 2011, 03:08 PM

And here is the report:
I'll start with the man piece of bad news. We lost CIRCUMNAVIGATION RACE to Willem by a few turns!

Good-ish news: We met the last AI, a fairly close Joao who is Jewish. (Joaoish?) He's to our east south of vicky. 1 Landmass per AI looks to be verified.

Good news: Military production is well underway, Ragnar is a long way from feud (still no monarchy) and his capital's defense... Well you'll see.

OK so as for my turnset. About according to plan, I changed city names and some unit names. I got Construction+50g for MC from cathy (she was the only one offering and everyone else had MC). The GP was a GS as expected, he's sitting in Elba (Our cap) note that izzy has already bulbed tao.

I was surprised how quickly I was able to move onto military build up mode, already got a bunch of maces and 6 galleys but whip anger is starting to bite (Pigs fish was so choked that I had to stagnate on a settler). 3 pop whipping maces into cats seems to have worked really well.

The main questions for the next turnset are:
What do we tech next? We have enough gold saved up to burn through our next tech.

Do we finish the settler? If so, where does he settle?

Cathy will trade us gems for our horses, I say we take the deal!

Pics will be the most descriptive here I feel (they are worth a thousand words)

The city of spicy sushi is settled.

Ragnar's...defenses!

At the end of the turnset there were still only 2 archers in there but throughout the turnset I saw 1 sword, 1 cat and 1 chariot as well as some galleys in his territory. Our choice to go for rags with Maces+cats is looking pretty good atm!

What he's saying couldn't be any more true! His WE has fluctuated wildly, Ragnar to us to cathy!

A good trade which I'm pretty happy with cost us -1 diplo with Izzy and Vicky

Soooo.... Close!

Cathy isn't very popular, I had to turn this one down.

Copernicus born, you can see the military focus in full swing.

A slight barb galley annoyance at the end of the turnset, NS what to do here. Probably need to roll the dice with the galley.

Gumbolt · Apr 28, 2011, 08:20 PM

Okay we seem to be in good shape.

So questions to be answered.

1. GS what to do? GA or Philosophy for trades?

2. How to best whip units? Mace into catapults?? Which cities should be whipped sparingly?

3. Do we risk the galley on the barb galley or park it on the clams and hope for the best?

4. When to hit the war horns?? Would a naval assault by sea with 4 mace take out 2 archers?? Should we wait for full 12 units first?

Overall next turnset is about getting ready to start a war.

Jaybone · Apr 29, 2011, 06:19 AM

I think when we finish this round of catapults we'll have enough of them. If Nidaros stays at 2 archers it wouldn't even be worth splashing more than 1 catapult into the city. I suspect Ragnar has loaded up a couple of galleys for a naval assault on Joao and will declare when he gets within landing distance of his borders.

I think we're going to need 8 macemen to do the job, at least to start, so I wouldn't start with just the 4 we have. I think you could take out Nidaros with the 4, but you'd lose 2 maybe (50% cultural defense+ 25% archer city defense+25% fortify bonus+20% city defense bonus+50% wall bonus turns those 3 strength archers into 8.4 strength defenders, not even taking into account if Ragnar has 1-2 units to move back into the city + a whip. Then, you have 2 macemen thumbing it in Nidaros who can't leave the city while ragnar sends all his troops in a counterattack. It's better to blitzkrieg him and be done with it.

Again, depending, it may be more efficient to attack from the galleys and suffer the -50% strength IF it's still only 2 defenders present. We will see

Risk the galley. If we lose the workboat, we know we lose 45 hammers. We have a probably 60% chance of winning the battle on clams, so a 40% chance of losing 75 hammers.

I still don't think it's a good time for GA so I'd be more in favor of bulbing philo. Izzy has already researched it so we might be able to get her to trade us.

We need to go up aesthetics line (can trade for it now) to get literature for national and heroic epics.

Gumbolt · Apr 29, 2011, 06:43 AM

Tech wise. I think the Ai will tech the music route for us. I think we need nationalism/rifles route. We should certainly make a play for liberalism and grab a military tech. We are playing a game of conquest. I am not opposed to paper/edu/lib/ and a grab of steel or MT?

The question is how far do we want to take the war? Do we stop at ragnar?? We could go on and attack Spanish?

In terms of Ragnar. He does have a number of galleys. These in themselves could be an issue if they are loaded with units. If we declare on him and he has loaded units to attack JoaII they could turn back and attack us. Are we sure JoaII is his target??

Does Ragnar have a stack in another city?? For such a warmonger he seems to have very few units sitting in his capital.

We need to get our triremes back. We may also get a sympathy DOW from the Spanish although to be fair we are attacking a backwards Ai who may not have the techs to bribe others.

In terms of the attack. I am split 50/50. Part of me says we should save the catapults to just reduce defences. This all assumes we will only face archers. We should set up a test game with Ragnar city and see probable result from a naval mace attack.

bobbyboy29 · Apr 29, 2011, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybone

I think when we finish this round of catapults we'll have enough of them. If Nidaros stays at 2 archers it wouldn't even be worth splashing more than 1 catapult into the city. I suspect Ragnar has loaded up a couple of galleys for a naval assault on Joao and will declare when he gets within landing distance of his borders.

I think we're going to need 8 macemen to do the job, at least to start, so I wouldn't start with just the 4 we have. I think you could take out Nidaros with the 4, but you'd lose 2 maybe (50% cultural defense+ 25% archer city defense+25% fortify bonus+20% city defense bonus+50% wall bonus turns those 3 strength archers into 8.4 strength defenders, not even taking into account if Ragnar has 1-2 units to move back into the city + a whip. Then, you have 2 macemen thumbing it in Nidaros who can't leave the city while ragnar sends all his troops in a counterattack. It's better to blitzkrieg him and be done with it.

Again, depending, it may be more efficient to attack from the galleys and suffer the -50% strength IF it's still only 2 defenders present. We will see

Risk the galley. If we lose the workboat, we know we lose 45 hammers. We have a probably 60% chance of winning the battle on clams, so a 40% chance of losing 75 hammers.

I still don't think it's a good time for GA so I'd be more in favor of bulbing philo. Izzy has already researched it so we might be able to get her to trade us.

We need to go up aesthetics line (can trade for it now) to get literature for national and heroic epics.

Agree with your plan on war buildup, possibility is to drop the current batch of units on the fish island next to ragnar to minimise galley movement and come at Nidaros in two waves. One to take the city, the other to keep it. 8 maces plus a sprinkling of cats sounds about right, judging by the units I saw moving around, I'm pretty sure that nidaros will be able to scramble up 6 defenders the turn after we DOW.

Not sold on aesth. line just yet. HE isn't available till we get a 10xp unit, and we don't really have the hammers to spare on either HE or especially NE atm. We should be able to pick it up nice and cheap later on though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumbolt

Okay we seem to be in good shape.

So questions to be answered.

1. GS what to do? GA or Philosophy for trades?

2. How to best whip units? Mace into catapults?? Which cities should be whipped sparingly?

3. Do we risk the galley on the barb galley or park it on the clams and hope for the best?

4. When to hit the war horns?? Would a naval assault by sea with 4 mace take out 2 archers?? Should we wait for full 12 units first?

Overall next turnset is about getting ready to start a war.

1. Maybe just hold onto him for the moment, GA isn't good atm and Izzy has philosophy, our GPP is pitiful atm and doesn't look like improving any time soon, saving for a timely GA may be well worth it, settling is an option too with mids coming in...

2. I'm finding 3 pop whipping maces into cats is working really well, 2 maces whipped gets 1 cat out on overflow alone. Happiness is starting to bite which is why I advocate trading horses to cathy for gems NOW!

3. Park the galley, expected return is better and there's nothing stopping the barb from pillaging more than 1 net if we leave it.

4. See above/ Jaybone's comments.

5. You forget 5, WHAT DO WE TECH NEXT??? I'm pretty torn, nothing looks too great. We've got paper/philo for lib. compass on the way to optics/astro (could we maybe get an early astro bulb???) Or we could go towards eng for trebs/pikes. Or even guilds for some knights(requires HBR as well).

Gumbolt · Apr 29, 2011, 07:12 AM

Techwise I think paper for now. Astronomy route is less important as we can reach all the AI.

Happy to hold onto the GS but each turn we do we lose possible beakers or techs to trade. Hold for edu?

I will park the galley on the sea food. Trade for Gems seems sensible. We could also really use those calender resources for happiness too.

Happy to build up military on the fish island. Not a bad idea although unit cost is higher outside our cities.

Now the whipping side I am not 100% sure on. So you have been 3 pop whipping cities to get mace with max overflow?? Putting overflow into the catapults or mace?? or using double over flow so it goes into catapult each time. Is this the same for Paris or do we let this city slow build units??

We need a proper plan from me today. I know what the overall goal is. Just need to get the micro correct and manage the happiness.

Jaybone · Apr 29, 2011, 08:17 AM

no point arguing it without a 10XP unit, but if we do get one, heroic epic is huge in terms of war production.

I don't think we'll have enough units to attack the spanish atm. This map really feels like it's going to set up as a drafting war with how spread out everyone is, more than curs as I was thinking earlier due to our lack of production. I think getting to astronomy and frigates first will be massive on this map. will allow us to proceed without much siege

bobbyboy29 · Apr 29, 2011, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumbolt

Techwise I think paper for now. Astronomy route is less important as we can reach all the AI.

Happy to hold onto the GS but each turn we do we lose possible beakers or techs to trade. Hold for edu?

I will park the galley on the sea food. Trade for Gems seems sensible. We could also really use those calender resources for happiness too.

Happy to build up military on the fish island. Not a bad idea although unit cost is higher outside our cities.

Now the whipping side I am not 100% sure on. So you have been 3 pop whipping cities to get mace with max overflow?? Putting overflow into the catapults or mace?? or using double over flow so it goes into catapult each time. Is this the same for Paris or do we let this city slow build units??

We need a proper plan from me today. I know what the overall goal is. Just need to get the micro correct and manage the happiness.

Not sure we should blindly tech towards lib here. Paper+philo+edu is a lot of beakers which won't give hardly any return for a long while now. Astro for double movement by sea may be very strong, same for getting more of a military edge now with say eng or guilds.

We have a settler coming in soon, we may be able to beat rags to the fish island if we're lucky.

Micro here is interesting. Like I said, given how hammer poor we are and our happiness issues, 3 pop mace whips look to be best. Most cities have half a cat built as a result, the next mace whip finishes the cat off. Paris is a tough one, we can either stop running scientists so that we can whip off a couple of pop (and maybe use OF for aqueduct after the initial force is ready). Or we can commit to getting our next GP in a reasonable timeframe and slowbuild the maces/cats.

You should als be sending the central trireme towards ragnar, whilst the eastern ones can come in and cover for barbs. The galley scouting ragnar needs to come back to help out with logistics. if 2 galleys occupy the same square, you can offload units from 1 to the other, effectively giving you 4 movement for 1 turn.

lymond · Apr 29, 2011, 09:05 AM

Paris can take a whip or too. I thought the aqueduct was going to be finished this turnset.

Speed is the key here. Let's get out a couple more units and hit Rag asap. Once we get his land we will be in good shape and continue the war moving forward to Willie or Iz.

I say we save the GS > Go Paper > Part bulb Edu. Puts us on the path to Gunpowder. Lib Chem

We can trade for Aesth and Lit later.

Don't be afraid to whip a bit more now to get the units out. Key to success on Epic speed.

As we get more cities and land, cites like Paris can fall back to push research

stuge · Apr 29, 2011, 09:08 AM

For the assault on Nidaros, I'd bring 8 maces and at least 2 catapults. I estimate that the whole campaign needs ~10 maces and 6-8 catapults.

Bring the triremes home. We've done enough exploring and they'll be needed for defense now that the AIs have established themselves. I still advocate for building a fourth trireme. Have the galley challenge the barb galley for now.

I think the GS is best used for a GA or settled. For our next techs, I'd skip the paper line entirely and go for a gunpowder+nationalism combo. Drafting is our best way to produce units and musketeers would allow us to take on a LB-equipped AI with only catapult support. I don't think we should go for liberalism here, because it's a dead end and we shouldn't be building a bunch of universities anyway.

lymond · Apr 29, 2011, 10:14 AM

well, edu may actually be a faster way to Gunpowder and Lib a fast way to Nationalism. Going the other route to Gunpowder means teching everything that the AIs usually prioritize. At least with Edu and Lib we have some good trade bait.

Holding the GS for Edu bulb will speed all that along.

stuge · Apr 29, 2011, 11:43 AM

I'm going off the normal speed tech costs here.

If we self research nationalism and guilds (we'll want philosophy either way), it takes 2800 beakers and we'll have to trade for feudalism.

Paper+edu+lib comes to 3800 beakers and the GS is worth what, 1000-1200?

So the quickest way to field muskets could be to self research nationalism, after which we could possibly trade for guilds, as the AI indeed prioritise it. This way the GS could be settled/used for an academy, which would speed our tech up for the rest of the game.

Admittetly we'll want paper at some point anyway, as it's on the way to rifles. Basically I view edu and lib as pretty much useless to us, and blowing the GS on that path a waste.

bobbyboy29 · Apr 29, 2011, 12:28 PM

OK, I think it's pretty clear that our next tech targets appear to be in the distance. I think we need to take stock of what our priorities are before moving forward. Stuge's thinking is right, we need to pick our targets and find the quickest way there and not get distracted by other things.

Where I disagree (respectfully) with stuge is what our targets currently are. I'm not entirely convinced that we should be asking ourselves "how quickly can we get nationalism and gunpowder?". When we're already whipping maces, beelining towards drafting muskets doesn't seem too attractive...

The way I see it I think we have 2 options:

1. Commit to warring as hard as possible as soon as possible and pursue medieval military techs (guilds and engineering) in the hopes that despite being a high priority for AI's, these will help us fight earlier and more effective wars snowballing to an early win.

2. Pick key military techs in the future which will give us an advantage to roll through the AI's for a win and choose the fastest path there possible. For me those techs are astro and chem, followed perhaps by steel. The path, I'm not sure of. Astro bulb is worth a thought, but libbing chem may work better and nab us more techs along the way.

Apr 28, 2011, 06:30 AM	#1141
Gumbolt Phoenix Rising Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: UK Posts: 10,514	Play on! __________________ My love for you civ 4 burns like a dying phoenix

Apr 28, 2011, 01:31 PM	#1145
bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns... Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,399 Images: 2	OK I will play now. Hope everything goes well! __________________ If you burn a wooden spoon, a phoenix will rise from the ashes!

Apr 28, 2011, 02:50 PM	#1146
bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns... Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,399 Images: 2	Turnset is played, here is the log Spoiler: Here is your Session Turn Log from 10 AD to 235 AD: Turn 174, 10 AD: Chartres has been founded. Turn 174, 10 AD: You have trained a Settler in Marble City. Work has now begun on a Barracks. Turn 174, 10 AD: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Pigs Fish. Work has now begun on a Granary. Turn 174, 10 AD: Willem van Oranje adopts Vassalage! Turn 175, 25 AD: Hypatia (Great Scientist) has been born in Barcelona (Isabella)! Turn 176, 40 AD: You have constructed a Library in Gold City. Work has now begun on a Galley. Turn 176, 40 AD: Taoism has been founded in Barcelona! Turn 177, 55 AD: You have constructed a Barracks in Tours. Work has now begun on a Galley. Turn 178, 70 AD: Catherine adopts Hereditary Rule! Turn 178, 70 AD: Catherine adopts Vassalage! Turn 179, 85 AD: Paris has been founded. Turn 180, 100 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Iron Clams. Work has now begun on a Barracks. Turn 180, 100 AD: Al-Razi (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land! Turn 180, 100 AD: Isaac Newton (Great Scientist) has been born in Uppsala (Ragnar)! Turn 181, 115 AD: The borders of Elba have expanded! Turn 183, 145 AD: You have discovered Machinery! Turn 183, 145 AD: Willem van Oranje has proven that the world is round! Turn 184, 160 AD: You have discovered Construction! Turn 184, 160 AD: You have trained a Galley in Tours. Work has now begun on a Maceman. Turn 184, 160 AD: The borders of Iron Clams have expanded! Turn 184, 160 AD: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Horse Clams. Work has now begun on a Galley. Turn 184, 160 AD: Ragnar adopts Organized Religion! Turn 185, 175 AD: You have trained a Maceman in Gold City. Work has now begun on a Galley. Turn 186, 190 AD: Nicolaus Copernicus (Great Scientist) has been born in Elba (Napoleon)! Turn 186, 190 AD: You have trained a Maceman in Marble City. Work has now begun on a Catapult. Turn 187, 205 AD: Marble City has become happy. Turn 187, 205 AD: Pigs Fish will become unhappy on the next turn. Turn 187, 205 AD: Pigs Fish can hurry Catapult for 1? with 20? overflow and +1? for 70 turns. Turn 187, 205 AD: Gold City has grown to size 6. Turn 187, 205 AD: Tours has become happy. Turn 187, 205 AD: Willem van Oranje will trade Dye Turn 187, 205 AD: Marble City will grow to size 4 on the next turn. Turn 187, 205 AD: Pigs Fish will grow to size 4 on the next turn. Turn 187, 205 AD: Horse Clams will grow to size 2 on the next turn. Turn 187, 205 AD: You have trained a Maceman in Tours. Work has now begun on a Catapult. Turn 187, 205 AD: Victoria has founded Canterbury in a distant land. Turn 188, 220 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Iron Clams! Turn 188, 220 AD: Marble City has grown to size 4. Turn 188, 220 AD: Marble City can hurry Catapult for 1? with 8? overflow and +1? for 48 turns. Turn 188, 220 AD: Gold City will become unhappy on the next turn. Turn 188, 220 AD: Gold City can hurry Catapult for 2? with 30? overflow and +1? for 37 turns. Turn 188, 220 AD: Horse Clams has grown to size 2. Turn 188, 220 AD: Catherine has 100 gold available for trade. Turn 188, 220 AD: Isabella has 100 gold available for trade. Turn 188, 220 AD: Willem van Oranje won't trade Dye Turn 188, 220 AD: Gold City will grow to size 7 on the next turn. Turn 188, 220 AD: Iron Clams will grow to size 3 on the next turn. Turn 188, 220 AD: Confucianism has spread in Horse Clams. Turn 189, 235 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Iron Clams! Turn 189, 235 AD: Elba can hurry Catapult for 1? with 27? overflow and +1? for 15 turns. Turn 189, 235 AD: Marble City can hurry Catapult for 1? with 10? overflow and +1? for 47 turns. Turn 189, 235 AD: Gold City has grown to size 7. Turn 189, 235 AD: Gold City has become unhappy. Turn 189, 235 AD: Tours can hurry Catapult for 1? with 25? overflow and +1? for 43 turns. Turn 189, 235 AD: Iron Clams has grown to size 3. Turn 189, 235 AD: Catherine has no worst enemy. Turn 189, 235 AD: Willem van Oranje won't trade Gems Turn 189, 235 AD: Isabella won't trade Wheat __________________ If you burn a wooden spoon, a phoenix will rise from the ashes!

Apr 28, 2011, 03:07 PM	#1147
Gumbolt Phoenix Rising Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: UK Posts: 10,514	Wow do we even need catapults??? Looks like we could of axe rushed that capital. lol 4-5 maces by naval assault should take it. That barb galley is a pain. Shame we didn't get the Circumnaviagtion bonus. Perhaps unlucky. We found Port!! These seem pissed off with us. Russian cities found too. We are still lagging behind the AI score but they won't know what hit them soon. No idea why Ragnar still has 3 cities. Looking good so far. I am up next!! __________________ My love for you civ 4 burns like a dying phoenix

Apr 28, 2011, 03:08 PM	#1148
bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns... Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,399 Images: 2	And here is the report: I'll start with the man piece of bad news. We lost CIRCUMNAVIGATION RACE to Willem by a few turns! Good-ish news: We met the last AI, a fairly close Joao who is Jewish. (Joaoish?) He's to our east south of vicky. 1 Landmass per AI looks to be verified. Good news: Military production is well underway, Ragnar is a long way from feud (still no monarchy) and his capital's defense... Well you'll see. OK so as for my turnset. About according to plan, I changed city names and some unit names. I got Construction+50g for MC from cathy (she was the only one offering and everyone else had MC). The GP was a GS as expected, he's sitting in Elba (Our cap) note that izzy has already bulbed tao. I was surprised how quickly I was able to move onto military build up mode, already got a bunch of maces and 6 galleys but whip anger is starting to bite (Pigs fish was so choked that I had to stagnate on a settler). 3 pop whipping maces into cats seems to have worked really well. The main questions for the next turnset are: What do we tech next? We have enough gold saved up to burn through our next tech. Do we finish the settler? If so, where does he settle? Cathy will trade us gems for our horses, I say we take the deal! Pics will be the most descriptive here I feel (they are worth a thousand words) The city of spicy sushi is settled. Ragnar's...defenses! At the end of the turnset there were still only 2 archers in there but throughout the turnset I saw 1 sword, 1 cat and 1 chariot as well as some galleys in his territory. Our choice to go for rags with Maces+cats is looking pretty good atm! What he's saying couldn't be any more true! His WE has fluctuated wildly, Ragnar to us to cathy! A good trade which I'm pretty happy with cost us -1 diplo with Izzy and Vicky Soooo.... Close! Cathy isn't very popular, I had to turn this one down. Copernicus born, you can see the military focus in full swing. A slight barb galley annoyance at the end of the turnset, NS what to do here. Probably need to roll the dice with the galley. __________________ If you burn a wooden spoon, a phoenix will rise from the ashes!

Apr 28, 2011, 11:06 AM	#1143
Jaybone Emperor Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,352	such is the price of progress

Apr 28, 2011, 08:20 PM	#1149
Gumbolt Phoenix Rising Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: UK Posts: 10,514	Okay we seem to be in good shape. So questions to be answered. 1. GS what to do? GA or Philosophy for trades? 2. How to best whip units? Mace into catapults?? Which cities should be whipped sparingly? 3. Do we risk the galley on the barb galley or park it on the clams and hope for the best? 4. When to hit the war horns?? Would a naval assault by sea with 4 mace take out 2 archers?? Should we wait for full 12 units first? Overall next turnset is about getting ready to start a war. __________________ My love for you civ 4 burns like a dying phoenix

Apr 29, 2011, 06:19 AM	#1150
Jaybone Emperor Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,352	I think when we finish this round of catapults we'll have enough of them. If Nidaros stays at 2 archers it wouldn't even be worth splashing more than 1 catapult into the city. I suspect Ragnar has loaded up a couple of galleys for a naval assault on Joao and will declare when he gets within landing distance of his borders. I think we're going to need 8 macemen to do the job, at least to start, so I wouldn't start with just the 4 we have. I think you could take out Nidaros with the 4, but you'd lose 2 maybe (50% cultural defense+ 25% archer city defense+25% fortify bonus+20% city defense bonus+50% wall bonus turns those 3 strength archers into 8.4 strength defenders, not even taking into account if Ragnar has 1-2 units to move back into the city + a whip. Then, you have 2 macemen thumbing it in Nidaros who can't leave the city while ragnar sends all his troops in a counterattack. It's better to blitzkrieg him and be done with it. Again, depending, it may be more efficient to attack from the galleys and suffer the -50% strength IF it's still only 2 defenders present. We will see Risk the galley. If we lose the workboat, we know we lose 45 hammers. We have a probably 60% chance of winning the battle on clams, so a 40% chance of losing 75 hammers. I still don't think it's a good time for GA so I'd be more in favor of bulbing philo. Izzy has already researched it so we might be able to get her to trade us. We need to go up aesthetics line (can trade for it now) to get literature for national and heroic epics.

Apr 29, 2011, 06:43 AM	#1151
Gumbolt Phoenix Rising Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: UK Posts: 10,514	Tech wise. I think the Ai will tech the music route for us. I think we need nationalism/rifles route. We should certainly make a play for liberalism and grab a military tech. We are playing a game of conquest. I am not opposed to paper/edu/lib/ and a grab of steel or MT? The question is how far do we want to take the war? Do we stop at ragnar?? We could go on and attack Spanish? In terms of Ragnar. He does have a number of galleys. These in themselves could be an issue if they are loaded with units. If we declare on him and he has loaded units to attack JoaII they could turn back and attack us. Are we sure JoaII is his target?? Does Ragnar have a stack in another city?? For such a warmonger he seems to have very few units sitting in his capital. We need to get our triremes back. We may also get a sympathy DOW from the Spanish although to be fair we are attacking a backwards Ai who may not have the techs to bribe others. In terms of the attack. I am split 50/50. Part of me says we should save the catapults to just reduce defences. This all assumes we will only face archers. We should set up a test game with Ragnar city and see probable result from a naval mace attack. __________________ My love for you civ 4 burns like a dying phoenix

Apr 29, 2011, 07:12 AM	#1153
Gumbolt Phoenix Rising Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: UK Posts: 10,514	Techwise I think paper for now. Astronomy route is less important as we can reach all the AI. Happy to hold onto the GS but each turn we do we lose possible beakers or techs to trade. Hold for edu? I will park the galley on the sea food. Trade for Gems seems sensible. We could also really use those calender resources for happiness too. Happy to build up military on the fish island. Not a bad idea although unit cost is higher outside our cities. Now the whipping side I am not 100% sure on. So you have been 3 pop whipping cities to get mace with max overflow?? Putting overflow into the catapults or mace?? or using double over flow so it goes into catapult each time. Is this the same for Paris or do we let this city slow build units?? We need a proper plan from me today. I know what the overall goal is. Just need to get the micro correct and manage the happiness. __________________ My love for you civ 4 burns like a dying phoenix

Apr 29, 2011, 08:17 AM	#1154
Jaybone Emperor Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,352	no point arguing it without a 10XP unit, but if we do get one, heroic epic is huge in terms of war production. I don't think we'll have enough units to attack the spanish atm. This map really feels like it's going to set up as a drafting war with how spread out everyone is, more than curs as I was thinking earlier due to our lack of production. I think getting to astronomy and frigates first will be massive on this map. will allow us to proceed without much siege

Apr 29, 2011, 09:05 AM	#1156
lymond Synthetic Life Form Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,566	Paris can take a whip or too. I thought the aqueduct was going to be finished this turnset. Speed is the key here. Let's get out a couple more units and hit Rag asap. Once we get his land we will be in good shape and continue the war moving forward to Willie or Iz. I say we save the GS > Go Paper > Part bulb Edu. Puts us on the path to Gunpowder. Lib Chem We can trade for Aesth and Lit later. Don't be afraid to whip a bit more now to get the units out. Key to success on Epic speed. As we get more cities and land, cites like Paris can fall back to push research __________________ "Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity." Christopher Morley lymond's YouTube Channel - Watch me play Civ4 poorly CFC GameOftheMonth(GOTM) Page - why are you not playing these ?

Apr 29, 2011, 09:08 AM	#1157
stuge Emperor Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The gale-swept forests of Finland Posts: 1,840	For the assault on Nidaros, I'd bring 8 maces and at least 2 catapults. I estimate that the whole campaign needs ~10 maces and 6-8 catapults. Bring the triremes home. We've done enough exploring and they'll be needed for defense now that the AIs have established themselves. I still advocate for building a fourth trireme. Have the galley challenge the barb galley for now. I think the GS is best used for a GA or settled. For our next techs, I'd skip the paper line entirely and go for a gunpowder+nationalism combo. Drafting is our best way to produce units and musketeers would allow us to take on a LB-equipped AI with only catapult support. I don't think we should go for liberalism here, because it's a dead end and we shouldn't be building a bunch of universities anyway. __________________ He's dreaming with his eyes open, and those that dream with their eyes open are dangerous, for they do not know when their dreams come to an end.

Apr 29, 2011, 10:14 AM	#1158
lymond Synthetic Life Form Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,566	well, edu may actually be a faster way to Gunpowder and Lib a fast way to Nationalism. Going the other route to Gunpowder means teching everything that the AIs usually prioritize. At least with Edu and Lib we have some good trade bait. Holding the GS for Edu bulb will speed all that along. __________________ "Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity." Christopher Morley lymond's YouTube Channel - Watch me play Civ4 poorly CFC GameOftheMonth(GOTM) Page - why are you not playing these ?

Apr 29, 2011, 11:43 AM	#1159
stuge Emperor Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The gale-swept forests of Finland Posts: 1,840	I'm going off the normal speed tech costs here. If we self research nationalism and guilds (we'll want philosophy either way), it takes 2800 beakers and we'll have to trade for feudalism. Paper+edu+lib comes to 3800 beakers and the GS is worth what, 1000-1200? So the quickest way to field muskets could be to self research nationalism, after which we could possibly trade for guilds, as the AI indeed prioritise it. This way the GS could be settled/used for an academy, which would speed our tech up for the rest of the game. Admittetly we'll want paper at some point anyway, as it's on the way to rifles. Basically I view edu and lib as pretty much useless to us, and blowing the GS on that path a waste. __________________ He's dreaming with his eyes open, and those that dream with their eyes open are dangerous, for they do not know when their dreams come to an end.

Apr 29, 2011, 12:28 PM	#1160
bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns... Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,399 Images: 2	OK, I think it's pretty clear that our next tech targets appear to be in the distance. I think we need to take stock of what our priorities are before moving forward. Stuge's thinking is right, we need to pick our targets and find the quickest way there and not get distracted by other things. Where I disagree (respectfully) with stuge is what our targets currently are. I'm not entirely convinced that we should be asking ourselves "how quickly can we get nationalism and gunpowder?". When we're already whipping maces, beelining towards drafting muskets doesn't seem too attractive... The way I see it I think we have 2 options: 1. Commit to warring as hard as possible as soon as possible and pursue medieval military techs (guilds and engineering) in the hopes that despite being a high priority for AI's, these will help us fight earlier and more effective wars snowballing to an early win. 2. Pick key military techs in the future which will give us an advantage to roll through the AI's for a win and choose the fastest path there possible. For me those techs are astro and chem, followed perhaps by steel. The path, I'm not sure of. Astro bulb is worth a thought, but libbing chem may work better and nab us more techs along the way. __________________ If you burn a wooden spoon, a phoenix will rise from the ashes!

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