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Old Mar 06, 2011, 08:07 PM   #1
Chris Woods
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Declaration of Friendship - any value to the player?

In every patch of Civ V I have found Declarations of Friendship to be nothing more then an invitation for the AI to ask me to give him free stuff, giving me diplomatic negatives if I refise. Now that DoF's are temporary it seems they carry over the "You didn't give me free stuff!" red mod, but they do not carry over the "We declared friendship.declared friendship with the same people" green mods.

So, is there any value to DoF's now? Should I start saying no to all of them?
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 08:34 PM   #2
joncnunn
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pre patch:
invitation to be asked for stuff for the rest of the game : Never worth it. (Eventually you will need cash in excess of the amount that triggers the AI wanting it)

post patch:
invitation to be asked for stuff until it expires: If you keep cash extremely low (<about 30) and have no surplus luxaries or resources until it expires, possibly okay. Otherwise not worth it.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 04:06 AM   #3
Seikninkuru
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I don't think it's worth it. The only thing it does is ensure a trading partner for the 300gold per resource... More often then not though they just ask you for your money and luxuries then get all pissy when you don't hand it over. It's a joke.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 11:11 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru View Post
I don't think it's worth it. It's a joke.
Denouncements and friendships are tools for building up "blocks". Obviously, people who are not building up blocks or don't know how they even exist and what their role is aren't going to use these.

See Maddjinn's deity game for futher info.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 11:56 AM   #5
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Cliques will form. If you are just going to go to war with everyone right off, then that won't matter to you. If you want to be at peace, then you want to be in a clique. Being in the clique means your resource sales will be good for longer. You have fewer problems with settling close. Less likely to get a DoW from clique members. They are less bothered when you attack someone who is outside the clique. They are more likely to denounce or go to war with someone who comes after you. Etc.

If you are outside the clique, you are more likely to get chain denouncements. Your exchange rate will plummet. You might get declared on by the entire clique. Etc.

So yes there's value, but you have to work at it to get anything out of it. If you don't want to play their little games, then just avoid all of it and sell your resources for whatever they are willing to pay.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 02:43 PM   #6
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Alliance networks (DoF blocks) are definitely great for laying low and playing as a builder until you're ready to dive into or start up some wars (pre patch).
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 03:07 PM   #7
maltz
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Friendship blocks dissolve faster than blinking.

All it needs is one arse suddenly denouncing another member. Both of them gets a negative modifier for denouncing friend and being denounced by a friend. Then, members take side to either denounce the denouncer or the target of denouement. Then they start fighting each other. I learned to never make friend with a peace loving Civ, such as Siam.

The general consensus in .167 is never make friends. I am trying that strategy and find it works great. By having no friends, everybody thinks you are available and desires friendly relationship with you. Isn't it ironic?
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 03:10 PM   #8
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Only time I find dissolving blocs to be problematic is if I'm not well defended. Otherwise, I just start bribing the erstwhile partners in and out of war with one another to try to keep them in check until I'm ready to switch from builder mode to a more aggressive phase.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 03:43 PM   #9
elijahtary
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Originally Posted by maltz View Post
The general consensus in .167 is never make friends. I am trying that strategy and find it works great. By having no friends, everybody thinks you are available and desires friendly relationship with you. Isn't it ironic?
So true. In my Emperor games, if I don't open up my borders to other civilizations and never make a DoF with any civ, the rest of the civs stay friendly with me the entire game (except Monty and Oda, usually). However, sometimes they'll ask for extra gold when making research agreements, won't trade surplus luxuries without something extra, etc. I tend to lean towards cultural victories with minimal warmongering so maybe this doesn't apply to most.

However, as soon as I make a DoF, the AI likes to ask for free luxuries or gold, and if I don't accept it, I get the negative diplomacy hit. Then armies of the other civs start showing up on my doorstep. I see the point of making DoF's with other civs to start teaming up and blocking off other civs, but typically I don't take advantage of it.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 03:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maltz View Post
Friendship blocks dissolve faster than blinking.
If you don't meddle, yes. It takes some work to keep the clique together. Just watch MadDjinn's video, if you have a spare 9 hours.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 04:02 PM   #11
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IMO, Civ5 has a fatal flaw in diplomacy, AIs dropped the concept of "common enemy" (a.k.a. An enemy of an enemy is a friend.) I constantly get denounced by a Civ, who is at war with a second Civ that is warring myself.

If this concept is restored, I believe friends will become much more useful (and less likely to fall apart and more likely to form blocks).
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Old Mar 08, 2011, 06:10 AM   #12
Bibor
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Originally Posted by maltz View Post
IMO, Civ5 has a fatal flaw in diplomacy, AIs dropped the concept of "common enemy" (a.k.a. An enemy of an enemy is a friend.) I constantly get denounced by a Civ, who is at war with a second Civ that is warring myself.

If this concept is restored, I believe friends will become much more useful (and less likely to fall apart and more likely to form blocks).
Although not officially, USSR and USA mutually denounced each other before Berlin even fell. I don't think your example is a very common one. Almost never happens to me.
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Old Mar 08, 2011, 09:06 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by maltz View Post
By having no friends, everybody thinks you are available and desires friendly relationship with you. Isn't it ironic?
It is called switzerland.
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Old Mar 08, 2011, 10:26 AM   #14
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If you don't meddle, yes.
This, too. A little work on your part can make them last longer, but ultimately they will break down as everyone approaches the endgame and sees even their friends as potentially beating them out.
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Old Mar 08, 2011, 10:32 AM   #15
maltz
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It is called switzerland.
Wow. Suddenly I think Civ5 is a sophisticated game. Or maybe the diplomatic coder is Swiss.
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Old Mar 08, 2011, 10:44 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Fluxx View Post
It is called switzerland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maltz View Post
Wow. Suddenly I think Civ5 is a sophisticated game. Or maybe the diplomatic coder is Swiss.

I LOLed.
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Old Mar 08, 2011, 07:31 PM   #17
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Before the patch, DoF seemed nice. I could pick a few people, make a group of 3 or 4 civs (myself included), and use it to keep myself safe.

Now, I am finding it not worth the trouble at all. It seems the AI doesn't like to declare DoF right after one expires.

Diplo needs a bit of work now, it seems. Before the patch, I was getting along well. Now, my friends go away after a pre-determined amount of time and rarely care to come back, just taking a little cash or some free time with a resource before going away.

Right now, I'd say DoF isn't worth it.
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Old Mar 09, 2011, 05:53 AM   #18
radiohodet
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Originally Posted by Rooftrellen View Post
Before the patch, DoF seemed nice. I could pick a few people, make a group of 3 or 4 civs (myself included), and use it to keep myself safe.

Now, I am finding it not worth the trouble at all. It seems the AI doesn't like to declare DoF right after one expires.

Diplo needs a bit of work now, it seems. Before the patch, I was getting along well. Now, my friends go away after a pre-determined amount of time and rarely care to come back, just taking a little cash or some free time with a resource before going away.

Right now, I'd say DoF isn't worth it.
I agree with this. Before the patch, DoF worked very well, but now it seems every civ totally forget that we were friends 1 turn ago.
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Old Mar 09, 2011, 09:16 PM   #19
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Declarations of Friendship are useful, if the conditions are right. I was recently in a scenario where on a 5 civ continent, I was smack in the middle, along a narrow stretch, effectively dividing the continent in 2 with my empire. I had three potential enemies - Arabia to my north, and Gandhi and England to my south.

Recognizing Gandhi as a friendly, non-warmongering guy, I pursued friendship with him. I also befriended Russia, who was the 5th civ on the continent flanking Arabia. I signed Defensive Pacts with Gandhi all game to protect us against England (who we eventually outteched and warred). I signed a Defensive Pact with Russia to protect myself against Arabia. With that, I avoided a DoW until turn 240 (Russia had run through Arabia and made it to me). Ironically I held them off in part to selling a border city to Mongolia, which slowed down Russia's army for some turns until they warred through it. I lasted just long enough against the onslaught to win by space race.

So, Declarations of Friendship are helpful when you and another civilization have a common enemy. You just have to remember which leader they are (look up their deception rating), what the benefit is for you, etc. to evaluated whether or not it's worth it.

Just FYI, my strategy for DoF's is as above, plus I sign them with allies of my friends and with civilizations with corner starts (who have the fewest enemies). I don't get asked for things until very late game because I sell all surplus luxuries and don't keep a large sum of gold on hand.
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Old Mar 09, 2011, 10:09 PM   #20
apotheoser
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Originally Posted by Bibor View Post
Denouncements and friendships are tools for building up "blocks". Obviously, people who are not building up blocks or don't know how they even exist and what their role is aren't going to use these.

See Maddjinn's deity game for futher info.
You mean... blocs?
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