I thought embarkation was supposed to make the AI better at naval invasions!

[Wombleburger]

Just returned to the game to try it after the latest patch. Had a reasonable game. (Still not as much fun as I have with Civ IV though.)

But... I still hate embarkation. Firstly, it spoils the immersion for me when I have to line up my units on the cliffs of my empire like lemmings, ready to all jump into the water at the same time and magically turn into boats.

Secondly, I thought the major reason for embarkation was to make the AI better at managing naval invasions. But in this game the Iroquois declared war on my island nation, then proceeded to have in excess of a dozen units (mostly infantry) eaten by my trireme, as they came one at a time across the water! I only ever saw one frigate approach my island, but it made no attempt to protect its defenseless transports, instead wandering away from my island the turn after it appeared.

So, my question is, how is this any better than the old system of building transport ships? At least the AI was able to make some attempt to protect its transports in Civ IV.

[Horizons]

That's marketing blurb. In reality Civ5 was so rushed that they didn't have time to code in transports before the release date. They also didn't have time to write any code for the AI to handle naval invasions and only added that in in a later patch.

[Thry]

I like embarkation. I don't like having to play Songhai so I don't get one-shotted. I don't like the fact that you can't stack civilian and military embarked units on each other.

Still better than the god awful transports and having to build them. Just because the AI is terrible doesn't mean embarkation is.

[Horizons]

Originally Posted by Thry

I like embarkation. I don't like having to play Songhai so I don't get one-shotted. I don't like the fact that you can't stack civilian and military embarked units on each other.

Still better than the god awful transports and having to build them. Just because the AI is terrible doesn't mean embarkation is.

Yeah. Loading units onto transport ships was so terrible.

[Revoran]

Originally Posted by Horizons

That's marketing blurb. In reality Civ5 was so rushed that they didn't have time to code in transports before the release date. They also didn't have time to write any code for the AI to handle naval invasions and only added that in in a later patch.

I suppose you have intimate knowledge of Civ 5's production do you?

Worked for Firaxis eh?

I didn't think so.

[Pouakai]

I have had one game, my first on Prince, ages ago, on Archepalago. Darius (On another island) DoWed me, and within a turn, in the one location I didn't have military units, lands a massive army on my shores. He had about 20 units embarked outside my borders.

[Horizons]

Originally Posted by Revoran

I suppose you have intimate knowledge of Civ 5's production

Why yes, I do. Thanks for your input.

[rschissler]

The reason why they didn't include transports is because it conflicts with 1UPT! Simple as that, not because they didn't have time to work it in.

People who played Civ IV realize that transports with naval escorts involved real strategy, not like Civ V where you just plop your units into the water without having to think about anything. While some people think that having transports takes too much time and makes the game too complicated, it's something I really miss.

[Save_Ferris]

Originally Posted by Horizons

Yeah. Loading units onto transport ships was so terrible.

It wasn't terrible, it was annoying. War went slowly, and if the ship sank, so did the many units on it. I love embarking.

[spfun]

yes transport boats were flat out boring & annoying, i'm glad they are gone. I just wish the AI would be better in the water.

[snarzberry]

Well I for one detest embarkation. I hate it with a passion and want it out of the game. I think the only time military units should be able to stack is in a transport ship on ocean tiles. Maybe 4 units to a transport - that's most of a city taking army per ship, so a substantial amount. And for those saying how annoying loading units into transports is, considering how fewer units there are in civ 5 compared to 4, it wouldn't be nearly as bad. I rarely field an army of more than 7 or 8 units.

I dislike how unrealistic it is to have a bunch of swordsmen suddenly pull boats out of their pockets for an intercontinental voyage, but more tellingly I dislike the gameplay effects. Two melee units are squaring off near a coast and one is almost killed in an attack - well just jump into the water and you're safe as houses. Plus the AI's random units going everywhere in the water is beyond stupid. I'm sure it's easier to code AI behaviour to mass units into transports and attack in a group.

One thing that would be tricky is exiting the transport if they were to contain more than 2 units, as 1upt makes it hard. Maybe 2 units is the right number per transport, I'd be fine with that.

[PieceOfMind]

OP, actually embarkation does make it easier for the AI. The problem is, 1UPT in general makes it harder for the AI. The net effect of the 2 combined is that it's worse than before.

Another way of putting it is that the AI would be even worse than it is now if it had to do both 1UPT and manage transports.

[nokmirt]

They will be working to make the AI better in upcoming patches. I just wish these game designers had been given the time to do things right. It is always about deadlines instead of quality.

[Raethwyn]

Originally Posted by snarzberry

I dislike how unrealistic it is to have a bunch of swordsmen suddenly pull boats out of their pockets for an intercontinental voyage, but more tellingly I dislike the gameplay effects. Two melee units are squaring off near a coast and one is almost killed in an attack - well just jump into the water and you're safe as houses.

As far as the first sentence is concerned, it's not meant to represent them pulling boats out of their pockets lol. It is a simplification of transportation logistics. In previous civs you had to manually build the boats, now you don't since your empire provides the transport when and where you need it. I didn't mind the old way, but I don't see too many problems with the new way. At least now I can spend all my hammers on military ships only.

Regarding the second sentence, if you look at the historical account of the battle of Marathon in ancient Greece you will see a similar thing happen. The Greek phalanx managed to push the Persian army back to their boats where they escaped into the sea to survive after suffering heavy losses. Some of the survivors even managed to sail down to Athens and attempt another attack.

I have mixed feelings about how they handled embarkation, though. I'd like to stack my embarked units even if it means they all get 1-shot killed when a ship rolls over them. It's just too much of a pain moving a massive army overseas. It's like a giant wooden carpet rolling over the ocean waves lol. When I am invading someone nearby I have to be careful to keep my massive flotilla 1 hex away from their borders or else he'll call me out on having an army at his territory. I'd rather be an honest warmonger and I don't want him getting the first shot. Maybe they could treat embarked units like aircraft; Just have them stack and put that little number overhead that shows how many units are stacked on the hex.

[seasnake]

Originally Posted by snarzberry

I dislike how unrealistic it is to have a bunch of swordsmen suddenly pull boats out of their pockets for an intercontinental voyage, but more tellingly I dislike the gameplay effects. Two melee units are squaring off near a coast and one is almost killed in an attack - well just jump into the water and you're safe as houses. Plus the AI's random units going everywhere in the water is beyond stupid. I'm sure it's easier to code AI behaviour to mass units into transports and attack in a group.

Build or purchase one Trireme.

[Polish]

I really do miss the planning a preparation that was involved in building the transports. It just does not seem reasonable to me to assume that any number of units could just jump in the water and be magically transported--I mean it's not like those units have organic transport available whenever and whenever they want it. I really don't see any reason they couldn't use the same mechanism they do for carriers and missle boats to stack them in. I also really miss airports and being able to airlift follow on forces in the later stages of an invasion.

[nokmirt]

Originally Posted by Polish

I really do miss the planning a preparation that was involved in building the transports. It just does not seem reasonable to me to assume that any number of units could just jump in the water and be magically transported--I mean it's not like those units have organic transport available whenever and whenever they want it. I really don't see any reason they couldn't use the same mechanism they do for carriers and missle boats to stack them in. I also really miss airports and being able to airlift follow on forces in the later stages of an invasion.

Amen to that Polish!

[gdambrauskas]

Originally Posted by Save_Ferris

It wasn't terrible, it was annoying. War went slowly, and if the ship sank, so did the many units on it. I love embarking.

kinda what happens in real life. And I like my wars be as real as possible.

[Stalker0]

I greatly prefer embarkation over the old transport system. I think its allows exploration and colonization and sea warfare to be a more core part of the game.

That said, we all know the AI is terrible, nothing about embarkation makes that more or less true.

I would not mind if embarked units were sturdier than they are right now so they can push a bit harder without getting destroyed by a single naval vessel. I'm fine with naval vessels wining against them, but I would like to need a few of them, as opposed to one god vessel that can kill an entire opposing army.

[DutchJob]

Fully agree with Polish.

Moving your army across oceans is a pain in the ass.

Why not both: embarkation and transports, so you can choose a system of transportation.