ALC Game 32: Holy Roman Empire / Charlemagne

1 SW -> the ONLY two good aspects of playing Charlemange are:
a) rathaus
b) GratWall (Great general bonus: protective, imperialistic, great wall).

You'll need additional hammer to get Great Wall faster.

For this --> Agriculture, mining, Bronze working (prechop forests), masonry (chop Great Wall).
Is it still possible on Immortal? Or masonry should go before BW? (on immo GreatWall should come around turn 50-60?)

So I would definitely skip one turn for moving onto plain hills. Rice is not so great for Imperialistic, we still get hammer bonus for settlers and get rice with a coastal city NE. There are still chances there is better tile in the fog :)
 
enKage said:
1 SW -> the ONLY two good aspects of playing Charlemange are:
a) rathaus
b) GratWall (Great general bonus: protective, imperialistic, great wall).

You'll need additional hammer to get Great Wall faster.

For this --> Agriculture, mining, Bronze working (prechop forests), masonry (chop Great Wall).
Is it still possible on Immortal? Or masonry should go before BW? (on immo GreatWall should come around turn 50-60?)

So I would definitely skip one turn for moving onto plain hills. Rice is not so great for Imperialistic, we still get hammer bonus for settlers and get rice with a coastal city NE. There are still chances there is better tile in the fog :)
Click to expand...
Completely disagree.
Food is not trait dependant, something needs to feed those :hammers: afterall, and this capital has a lot of hills to mine!

Similarly the value of the GWall depends on the map, neighbours and you plan. Not your traits.

There is no reason to commit to building the GWall right now, and moving SW carries a significant risk of losing a decent capital.
 
We will know more after moving scout SW/SW(S). If ANY food tile there, settle on plainhills.

I dont make calculations, but I suppose:

- supposing we run two food tiles and the rest goes on mine, we can build settler faster. Plainhill location gives us:
only ONE less food at the beginning giving ONE more hammer instead. In this particular game traits affects more early expansion than food. Even first worker will come a little faster = faster irrigated corn and faster mines = faster settlers and GW.

EDIT:
SIP will have only probably three mines in BFC. Too little for me. I'd rather have more hills soth
EDIT again: later food/hammer count equals -
a) SIP - we lose 1 F and gain 1H working plain hills
b) settling 1 SW - we gain 1F from working grass hill, additional hammer from plainhill is already added.

At the beggining of a game we will be capped at max 5 population, enough to work corn and grassland farm and 3 hills. Moving SW has better chances for getting better hill tiles.
 
We will know more after moving scout SW/SW(S). If ANY food tile there, settle on plainhills.
Click to expand...
At most, scouting there will show us 3 unkown tiles, and thats if 1 is flat and the other two are hills so finding food is very unlikely. There is an off chance deers will be in the plains forest we can see in the fog, but theres little to suggest the start is in the tundra zone.

SIP will have only probably two mines in BFC.
Click to expand...
I explained that we can see more than that from the starting picture on the last page!
Spoiler :
There are 6 useable hills in starting positions BFC, 4 grass 2 plains and thats not including the one the settler is standing on....by moving SW your actually risking mine potential with unkown tiles!

The only thing that we know will be gained from the 1SW move is a little production boost at the very start, apart from that its going to be a big gamble.
 
I actually value Great Wall less for Charlemagne than most leaders; I've got imperialistic for quick settlers, mysticism for quick border pops, and I'm only one tech away from protective archers to deal with barbarians. There doesn't seem like much for the Great Wall to do.
 
kossin said:
You still gain 3 turns on the corn and 1 of growth despite moving from the 5t faster worker so your argument isn't really good.
Click to expand...

:crazyeye:, an excellent point.

Summary of Settling Dispute
Click to expand...

1NW (Bockwurst, Mantic0re, GGracchus, Habitus)

Makes the city coastal which allows for better trade routes, the ability for our capital to build ships, and the ability to build the Great Lighthouse. We also get the riverside grassland hill we would have been settling on.

SIP (shyuhe, yuchai, Bandobras Took, Ghpstage, yatta77, Um the Muse, Sian, Killroyan)

Get more grassland tiles, decent long-term production site, decent short-term production site.

1SW (enKage)

Settling on the plains hill gives us an extra hammer and therefore faster worker, lose the rice but another city can be settled for the rice and the coast.

Anything else? So far, 1NW looks not as good as SIP and only really has coastal going for it. But since we don't have any fish up there it seems pretty silly to settle there. If we decide we really do need TGL given the map a second city can always put up a decent fight at building it. SIP is the safest option as we are definitely going to get two food specials and plenty of hills. 1SW means an extra hammer on the city tile, but runs the risk of having only corn and a grassland farm to feed it.

It's looking like SIP is winning and it does seem to be satisfactory.
 
GHpstage, I missed the screen with tiles prediction :)

BTW, as this positions seem to be very equal till population 5, I will take a risk and settle 1SW in my shadow and go for a quick great wall skipping archery completely. I rarely play immortal (and no wins yet :( ), I think also that Charles is one of the hardest leader to play, so I will make a try not to lose very quickly.

Capital doesnt have to be huge until beaurocracy, later I can relocate it.

Goodluck Beningal, game will be very tough!
 
I think overall looking at the arguments, SiP would probably be strongest. You also may get some riverside tiles on all the 3 eastern tiles in fog as the grass hill NE of rice has riverside but the plains to south of it doesn't, hopefully the river will kink like the one we're settling next to.

I actually never considered SW but I don't think it would be a bad move, I'd move the scout E-NE on to the grass hill if i was doing that thou, checking if there was seafood to put my 2nd city 1E of it to pick up the rice.
 
Ok, I played shadow till the end of the turn50

Do not enter :) some map information in spoiler

Spoiler :

GW built on turn44, 3 cities, 2 workers (1 of them built in Prague), 2 warriors, scout lost to lion

Build order:
Worker --> warrior --> warrior --> settler --> great wall (1 chopped forest finished construction)-->settler --> warrior

Techs:
Agri --> Mining --> MASONRY --> BW --> Wheel (1 turn left to discover)

It occurs GW could be skipped (Probably I could produce enough warriors instead to fogbust everywhere), as we are on the island, but +100% GG emergence bonus is huge!

Aachen has very little food potential, but it makes Prague better city site, perfect for beaurocapital

Screenshot --> http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9527/endof50turn0000.jpg
 
Round 1: 4000 BC to 2760 BC (turns 0-31)

Spoiler :
I began the round by moving the scout to see if we could get any more information about the land. Unfortunately the scout wasn't in a very good spot, but I did the best I thought I could by moving it SW and then SW again.



The scout didn't find anything at all useful so I decided to go with the safest bet and settle in place. It turns out I forgot to take a screenshot at the time, so excuse the wrong time on the one below.



I started with a worker and agriculture. Agriculture would come in before the worker and the worker could then farm both the corn and the rice, in that order. Notice that even with a leader with no good techs, starting worker first was still best, and by a long shot. I had been hoping to maybe open with a settler first, just for something different, but the lack of a 3:hammers: tile and the two grains meant that worker first was best.

After agriculture finished I started on mining. Our capital has five unforested hills, two of them riverside. Agriculture and mining would therefore give our worker lots of things to do.



Mining is also a pre-requisite for bronze working, which I was planning to research next. Bronze Working is a good early tech for us since we have quite a few forests to chop. It will also reveal copper which we may very well have given the lack of other resources in our capital. On the other hand, we have lots of hills, but not a lot of food, so slavery is probably not for us this game. Overall though, Bronze Working is a good option.



The worker finished and started farming the corn while the city began building a warrior. Our scout was still out and about, but scouts have a tendency of dying on immortal and warriors are good to have around. After this warrior, I built two more and then ended the round.

As I was saying about the scout.



Things aren't looking up and sure enough the scout died that turn.

Back at home, I had the capital work the forested grassland hill with the second citizen until the rice was finished at which point I switched to working the rice.



The worker was working on the rice and would then move 2S2W to the riverside grassland hill and then 1SE to the riverside plains hill.

Bronze Working came in turn 31. Do we have copper?



Yes we do! The rest of our land isn't very good though. The southern area is viewable above and the northern area can be seen here.



So there's not a lot of food in the vicinity which is never a good thing. But we do have copper for defensive purposes and marble for a few choice wonders if we choose to go that route. Given that we need copper hooked up and we're going to need some source of money in the future I'm planning on the wheel and then pottery.



For my next city site I'm thinking 1E of the copper. This city will claim the copper along with two flood plains, six riverside grassland tiles, two riverside plains, two riverside grassland hills, and some other hills it cam borrow from the capital. I think a good idea might be to farm the flood plains, work the copper, and then work plains and grassland cottages. I am certainly up for any other ideas if you guys have them.

Also worth noting is that we have yet to meet any other AIs. There does seem to be desert to our east and I've noticed the AI tends not to explore through desert so it's definitely possible there's somebody over there. I haven't given up hope yet.

Any questions, comments, or answers are welcome!
 
@Benginal
Spoiler :
Any questions, comments, or answers are welcome!
Click to expand...
Ok, mine will be the first!

For my next city site I'm thinking 1E of the copper.
Click to expand...
I like it! 8 RiverSide Flood/Grass to Farm (SE) or Cottage (CE), 2 Mines (Grassland Hill and Copper), 1 Quarry (Marble). Likely my choice as well.
The only alternative I can see would be 1NE from the Copper, to work also the two Hills (Plain/Grass) in the North and have a highly :hammers: producing city, leaving few Grass Riverside to a next Silk City in the South.

But I'm not actually playing the map, just lurking the thread with interest (sorry about that), waiting for the next Immortal University Game. So I'm just commenting on your Screen Shots.
Greetings,
yatta.
 
Crappy land Benginal. I like the proposed site for copper city. Next city will propably be furfishcity with settled on the fur. That is a good Maoi city and GP farm. Other then that I seriously hope for more food in the neighbourhood.
 
Killroyan said:
Crappy land Benginal. I like the proposed site for copper city. Next city will propably be furfishcity with settled on the fur. That is a good Maoi city and GP farm. Other then that I seriously hope for more food in the neighbourhood.
Click to expand...

I like that idea for a third city.

If you can manage to snag the Great Lighthouse, you might be able to get away with settling some filler coastal cities rather than desert/plains cities. :)

Make sure to turn the freshwater lake into a 3-food tile by having a coastal city with it in its BFC. Exact placement depends on further scouting.
 
700 AD, I probably retire because of recent unlucky events and just horrible second trait.
Spoiler :

Ok, semi-isolation, no food and protective?:cry:

I oracled CoL 1300BC (notice my second city is far away crapping the marble):
Spoiler :


Then I met some people (quite late), my tech situation is not so horrible, but my relations with infidels are..
Spoiler :


Map:
Spoiler :


There was a barb city I tried to take a long time, but barb galleys did their job too well and when I finally got there, there was a huge chinese SoD.
Spoiler :


I waited one turn and china only bombarded cultural defence:crazyeye:
But then I lost against the last barb archer with 85% changes and china took the city.
Spoiler :




Thanks for the game anyway:)
 
Get a good dotmap going, you'll need it if you want 6 okay cities.

EDIT: Also, stop working the worst tiles available, you are food starved not hammer. You have improved rice and BW, you can 2-pop whip a settler in 6 turns once you grow to 5 (3t to grow, 1t to revolt, 1t to build, 1t to whip) which should time more or less well with TW.
 
Glad to hear that people are okay with the second city site. I'll get that up and running soon.

I'm not sure that the Great Ligthouse is going to be a reasonable goal. If we do try for it, our third city is going to need to build it, probably the fish fur city, and we still need fishing, sailing, and masonry. It's going to be a major investment and I'm not sure it's worth it. If we don't find anybody to our east though it may be a good idea to go for it.

Good suggestion Kossin. I'm still adjusting to slavery. In the old days I wouldn't have whipped in a city with that little food and that many hills and instead grown to the cap and work the hills. But getting a settler out in five turns is certainly attractive so I'll go for it.

Also, I'm hoping to play these games a little faster now that it's summer (an update every day or two). I am working 40 hours a week, but I have no homework! I know some people prefer the games to go slower, so if anybody has a really compelling reason for me to do so send me a PM.
 
Round 2: 2760 BC to 2000 BC (turns 31-50)

Spoiler :
I began the round by making the switch recommended by kossin.



He (maybe) pointed out that hammers was not what this capital was lacking, but food. I switched to working the food and getting my city to size 4 in the fewest turns possible.

After the city grew I revolted into Slavery.



This civic would allow me to two-pop whip the settler next turn after I had spent one turn honestly building it. A settler is usually a three-pop investment, but since I'm imperialistic I can whip my settlers for 2*45 hammers after one turn of honest building.



And just like that I have my first settler. In the meantime the worker had finished the mine on the riverside plains hill and had moved over to the next city site. I thought earlier about chopping the forest where I wanted to settle, but this would have meant delaying Prague or not finishing the plains hill mine. Neither of these looked attractive for the only 8:hammers: that forest would give. So instead I put one turn of a mine on the grassland hill 1SW of Praha.



Prague was settled and started on a monument for some border pops. I wanted that other flood plain in its culture sharpish. The worker started on a copper mine right away.

After the Wheel I began teching Pottery.



We have no commerce traits, no commerce tiles, and only a small chance at any commerce wonders, so a commerce tech it was. It doesn't look like I'll be able to trade with people as I'm isolated. To make things worse I have no stone and no industriousness so the Pyramids are out (are they?). So cottages it is!

After the settler we whipped at the beginning of the round Aachen built a worker followed by another warrior. It then started on our second settler for our third city. The workers were building a road between the two cities and hooking up the copper in the process.



Notice the binary research. Binary research means going with either 100% gold or 100% beakers. Here's why.



I have 16 raw commerce. 14 is being turned to :science: and 1 into :commerce:. Where's the other one you ask? Well it disappears. So run the slider at 100% of either one and you'll be fine. If you really want to, you can check different levels in between such that there's no waste.

And I ended the round here with the following tech choice.



Before we make any final decisions we'll review the empire.



Aachen can two-pop whip another settler this turn or wait and still do so next turn. After that I'll slow build a granary and then whip out a worker.



Prague is going to build this granary, finish the axeman, and then start on a library.



Red city has almost all of the food in our empire. It will be a decent city having three hills and two fish. It also has some forests that will allow us to chop in some infrastructure and chop out some workboats.

Orange city has no food but gets three grassland hills, a plains hill, a lighthouse-able lake (thanks to Bandobras Took for this), and six pre-civil-service farmable grassland tiles.

Blue city also has no food, but doesn't have any of the irrigable land of Orange city. Come civil service it will be passing as it has five grassland hills and four grassland tiles.

If you have any other suggestions of cities in the nearby area I'd love to hear them. It definitely looks like we're isolated so there's no rush to settle the bad cities. Hopefully there's some better land up to the northeast. And if not better land hopefully some better sea. I've currently got a lot of blue and only two fish to show for it.

So here's the tech tree and how long it will take to research everything.



We don't have a lot of leeway and pretty much every plan is mutually exclusive. Here are my current ideas. The estimated times of arrival are very estimated. If somebody with more patience wants to calculate the true turns they should finish go for it!

1. The Great Lighthouse (eta turn 95)
Fishing -> Sailing -> Masonry. Red city gets settled right away and builds workboat, workboat, lighthouse, Great Lighthouse with help from chops. Aachen and Prague build workers, settlers, and a few more troops.

2. Oracle (eta turn 80)
Writing -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> Oracle (Monarchy/Code of Laws). Aachen stops on the settler and builds more workers and a library. Prague builds a library. Scientists run if practical.

I'd like to be able to insert writing into option 1 or fishing into option 2, but I just don't see it happening and us getting the respective wonder in time. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic.

I look forward to your much needed advice!
 
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