The new patch

[Txurce]

I think Thal found a job immediately upon graduating. He's already working for Firaxis. The similarities in the new patch to TBC are unbelievable... and I'm not through reading the list.

Thal, you may not be able to comment on the above, but how do you think the changes will affect TBC?

Finally, do you have any idea if TBC will work with Hotseat?

[Seek]

Originally Posted by Txurce

I think Thal found a job immediately upon graduating. He's already working for Firaxis. The similarities in the new patch to TBC are unbelievable... and I'm not through reading the list.

Thal, you may not be able to comment on the above, but how do you think the changes will affect TBC?

Finally, do you have any idea if TBC will work with Hotseat?

Thanks for the heads up! (I only look at TBC threads and ones I'm subbed to these days) I asked about Hotseat and Valkyrin said it's probably not happening - but we can hope mods will be supported!

Off to check out the patch notes

[Txurce]

Originally Posted by Seek

Thanks for the heads up! (I only look at TBC threads and ones I'm subbed to these days) I asked about Hotseat and Valkyrin said it's probably not happening - but we can hope mods will be supported!

Off to check out the patch notes

1. Please!

2. Your mind will be blown. Check out the RA!

[Thalassicus]

Aw drat! With the last update I felt I finally got everything nearly complete, and will have to start readjusting things all over again.

I see a lot of differences because they have access to the c++ part of the code, so they aren't restrained in what they can do. It seems the overall goals are the same in many areas. The section on combat and units especially has some similarities, like slower mech infantry and better tanks, with the ironclad->battleship upgrade and so on.

It's nice to see they're finally dropping the free-tech mechanism from research agreements, though it's a shame they didn't take an approach that helps less-advanced civs or makes Declarations of Friendship useful.

[Ahriman]

Aw drat! With the last update I felt I finally got everything nearly complete, and will have to start readjusting things all over again.

Yeah, I understand what you feel. I have little intention of actually playing vanilla, so it actually becomes frustrating when they change things. Which is bizarre, we should celebrate a patch that makes positive changes.

On their changes:

Spoiler:

Diplomacy. All good, but a bit horrifying that this still wasn't there. The AI didn't care about gifts, even hidden in the background?

Correct issue that was causing late-game continent-bound AI’s to over-build units intending to invade, and never properly execute the amphibious invasion.

Huzzah!

Policy “Finishers” added to all 10 policy trees. Taking all policies in a tree will grant an additional bonus effect.

Was this really needed?

Unhappiness per city increased to 3 from 2

Hmm, I wonder where they got that from....

All great person tile improvements now connect all strategic resources.

Good call!

New bonus resource: Stone (+1 production, improved with a Quarry). See the Stone Works building note below for additional details.

Not sure I saw a need for this.

Academy yield increases with Scientific Theory.
Customs House yield increases with Economics.
Manufactory yield increases with Chemistry.

Hmm.....

Luxury resources now give 4 Happiness, down from 5.

I don't think this is a good idea. This makes luxuries way less interesting and important.

Arsenal moved to rifling and now provides city defense instead of unit production.

Why did we need another city defense building?

Walls now gives 4 Defense (was 5).
Walls of Bablylon now give 6 Defense (was 7.5).
Mughal Fort now gives 6 Defense (was 9).
Castle now gives 4 Defense (was 7.5).

Ugh.... no no no no.
These are already hardly worth building.

Factory production increased by 1 hammer but modifier decreased to 10%.

Ugh. Sucks now. 10% production yield? For a special building that takes a strategic resource? The whole industrial revolution AND modern assembly line manufacturing?

Workshop production modifier reduced by 5%.

Terrible, wrong direction.

I hope TBC ignores the vast majority of their building changes.

Great library now gives 3 additional science, and provides a free Library in the city where it was built.

Because this was... underpowered???

Hanging Gardens now give 10 Food instead of 1 population per city and Happiness.

I think this is interesting. So, its now for tall empires, to get a megacity.

Germany: Now receives a 25% discount on land unit maintenance.

Wow. That is a very, very large benefit.

Freedom, Autocracy and Order are now mutually exclusive.

I don't think that is a good idea, and I don't think it is logical. You can't have freedom and socialism? Methinks some Tea Party people are working at Firaxis.....

Tradition Finisher: +15% Growth and +2 Food in each city.

Wha?
Why does the Tradition tree (for tall empires) give a big bonus for wide empires?

Honor Opener now additionally provides Culture for each barbarian killed.

Culture for killing barbarians in the honor tree is a good idea. I still think its a bad idea to have culture for killing other civs.

Honor Finisher: Grants gold for each enemy unit killed.

Hmmm....

Theocracy now increase gold yield by 10% in cities with a Temple.

Instead of happiness? Strong policy -> useless policy.

Constitution now provides +2 Culture per Wonder.

Laaaame.
It was a good policy when 3 wonders one in each city could give a big boost to your 3 city empire. But if all it does now is a tiny boost per wonder, then you have to have a ton of wonders to get any bonus, which will never happen on a high difficulty level.

Police State now provides 3 Happiness per Courthouse, and reduces the time it take to build Courthouses by 50%.

I think this is an interesting approach.

Communism now provides 2 Production and 10% Production towards buildings in each city.

Laaaame. A small bonus in building production is a terrible bonus in the very late game.

[Architect]

The biggest thing I wish we could lobby them to do is the City State yield work you did for Culture and Military bonuses. Makes the CS very balanced IMO.

[Seek]

@Thal - I thought the same thing reading the patch notes!

@Architect - the devs still haven't made culture a yield for who knows what reason as evidenced by the fact that the landmark doesn't increase at a tech like the othr GP improvements. It should have been done by now.

My impressions are that the devs wanted to truly make happiness the limiting factor of expansion. They've reintroduced a lot ICS friendly mechanisms while nerfing almost every source of happiness. See the culture (less available but much reduced cost/city), production (much less available but more ways to get small boosts) and to a lesser extent, gold changes specifically. I think the player's average empire size will increase significantly but the rate of new cities will be slower, which strikes me as more realistic and fun.

I'm not entirely sure that it will work correctly, but it will be interesting to play - it's going to feel like a pretty different game.

Looking forward to:
Policy tree finishers (Sneaks suggested something similar back in February) - This should make for more interesting decision-making wrt to SP picks and should help the AI which typically fills trees out more than the player.
New RA - This could work if tweaked a bit. While the current TBC mechanic is equitable, having a big bonus at the end feels more fun to me than a small continuous bonus. It could also be interesting if merged with the current mechanic in TBC by giving a bonus that is equal to 50% of both civ's median tech cost divided by two (or similar) to aid more backward civs. Perhaps the cost of RAs should also be based on whoever is at the *lowest* era, thereby encouraging RAs with more backward civs. Not sure how to tie in DoFs atm.
More positive diplo modifiers!
Some of the new wonder effects look great.

The building rebalance is interesting, but we'll have to see if it aha out as intended. See comment above wrt culture and production buildings. Defensive structures may paradoxically be *more* valuable because of their reduced effectiveness.

The rest will take some thought and/or play to determine quality I think, so I won't comment right now (though I mostly agree with Ahriman's statements above about everything I haven't mentioned in this post). It's a little frustrating to read the notes because it isn't clear whether some changes are in place of or in addition to the previous effects (be it buildings, SPs, etc.).

[Txurce]

Originally Posted by Thalassicus

Aw drat! With the last update I felt I finally got everything nearly complete, and will have to start readjusting things all over again.

It's nice to see they're finally dropping the free-tech mechanism from research agreements, though it's a shame they didn't take an approach that helps less-advanced civs or makes Declarations of Friendship useful.

I did think of the work you laying ahead for you, both because some of their changes are on the coding level, and because they are interesting enough to make you reconsider present approaches. This is more of a purpose question, though - is TBC balancing and improving vanilla, or heading in its own, however similar direction?

With regard to DoF's, it seems to me their use is the mechanic for cooperation, now more meaningful with the addition of positive diplomatic modifiers.

Originally Posted by Ahriman

Yeah, I understand what you feel. I have little intention of actually playing vanilla, so it actually becomes frustrating when they change things. Which is bizarre, we should celebrate a patch that makes positive changes.

On their changes:

I think their changes to hammers and happiness have to be viewed as a whole, and almost certainly played, before they can be evaluated. But I really liked their global approach.

[Montov]

I really hope the mod will be made compatible with the new patch; imho especially the unofficial patch part.

[Txurce]

Originally Posted by Seek

My impressions are that the devs wanted to truly make happiness the limiting factor of expansion.

New RA - This could work if tweaked a bit. While the current TBC mechanic is equitable, having a big bonus at the end feels more fun to me than a small continuous bonus. It could also be interesting if merged with the current mechanic in TBC by giving a bonus that is equal to 50% of both civ's median tech cost divided by two (or similar) to aid more backward civs. Perhaps the cost of RAs should also be based on whoever is at the *lowest* era, thereby encouraging RAs with more backward civs. Not sure how to tie in DoFs atm.

Happiness may just be readjusted. Note how much more happiness the policies give. And there is now more reason to trade the AI luxury for luxury... thereby alleviating the post-early game gold excess.

I'm very interested to see what you and Thal do to make the TBC RA mechanism work atop the vanilla mechanic.

[Gamewizard]

I am looking foward to the policy tree finishers, a subtle reward for choosing a possibly weaker policy rather than jumping around trees to grab all the good ones. I too am confused why Tradition gets per city food bonuses...seems like it would better fit Liberty. Perhaps they think that the %growth increase better fits the few tall cities (ex: 3 tall cities with 18 surplus each + finisher = a net gain of 5 food per city, essentially a free vanilla hospital per city...although I don't know how likely it is to achieve 18 or more surplus food in vanilla)

[Ahriman]

I think their changes to hammers and happiness have to be viewed as a whole, and almost certainly played, before they can be evaluated.

I don't. A 10% yield on a building that costs X hammers can be evaluated fairly well on its own.

But I really liked their global approach.

I don't. I really dislike the shift towards buildings that give flat yield bonuses rather than % bonuses. One of the best things that TBC did is use yield bonuses to make small empires viable. The vanilla changes are in the opposite direction. And they also reduce the gains from city specialization, which is bad.

[Seek]

Originally Posted by Txurce

Happiness may just be readjusted. Note how much more happiness the policies give. And there is now more reason to trade the AI luxury for luxury... thereby alleviating the post-early game gold excess.

Meritocracy and Humanism are buffed somewhat, but Landed Elite is severely nerfed (I wonder if it's per 10 citizens globally or locally) and it's unclear whether Theocracy's happiness effect was removed. I'm not seeing much increase here, particularly if Theocracy doesn't provide happiness. EDIT: Reread the description for LE, it seems to be local. Also, I was erroneously thinking it was in place of Aristocracy bonus (1 happy per 2 citizens) so ignore the LE comment above.

@Ahriman: I think what we define as "small empire" will shift from 2-4 cities to 4-7 cities, more along the lines of civ4. Though I prefer % modifiers as well.

@Gamewizard: The food bonus for the Tradition finisher is excellent for small empires. Large empires usually don't have the happiness to grow their cities, so it risks making them OP when each city can work an extra mine - large empires already have a production edge over small empires. This change in TBC (as it is now on the SP) from 2 to +1 for specialists is actually one I disagree with.

[Txurce]

Originally Posted by Seek

Large empires usually don't have the happiness to grow their cities, so it risks making them OP when each city can work an extra mine - large empires already have a production edge over small empires.

I have yet to have a happiness problem once I reach the relevant bonus in Autocracy.

Edit: Some Wonders now also give increased happiness.

[Seek]

Originally Posted by Txurce

I have yet to have a happiness problem once I reach the relevant bonus in Autocracy.

Edit: Some Wonders now also give increased happiness.

1. Which is halfway through the game. At this point I think the usefulness of +2 food is significantly less than the first half. Moreover, do you take Autocracy every game? I certainly don't..
Btw, do you think Police State been buffed or nerfed? And of course this all depends on what vanilla SPs are changed or kept here.

2. Yes, wonders will be much more relevant now! Tbh, I have been building fewer and fewer wonders as of late. They will be quite a bit harder to choose between as well.

[Txurce]

Originally Posted by Seek

1. Which is halfway through the game. At this point I think the usefulness of +2 food is significantly less than the first half. Moreover, do you take Autocracy every game? I certainly don't.. Btw, has Police State been buffed or nerfed? I think the latter. Of course this all depends on what vanilla SPs are changed or kept here.

I take Autocracy in every game I warmonger. Depending on how many cities I take, I may or may not have a happiness problem prior to that occupation policy. (SOW would allow me to buy happines buildings immediately, but this is rarely needed post (Police State? Is that what I'm talking about?)

I never take Autocracy when playing builder - but I don't have a happiness problem in those games, either, thanks to luxuries, policies and CS.

[Seek]

Originally Posted by Txurce

I take Autocracy in every game I warmonger. Depending on how many cities I take, I may or may not have a happiness problem prior to that occupation policy. (SOW would allow me to buy happines buildings immediately, but this is rarely needed post (Police State? Is that what I'm talking about?)

I never take Autocracy when playing builder - but I don't have a happiness problem in those games, either, thanks to luxuries, policies and CS.

Do you play expansionist science games? Those were what I had in mind when I made the statement. Right now they aren't as viable as the other styles, but they might be post-patch.

Er, I think it's called Police State, but I could be totally off! Any opinions on the new Police State mechanics?

[Txurce]

Originally Posted by Seek

Do you play expansionist science games? Those were what I had in mind when I made the statement. Right now they aren't as viable as the other styles, but they might be post-patch.

I've played a couple with Germany after Thal buffed their SA, and meant to pursue them further, even though I also doubted I would do better than going small. But Thal has since made so many interesting changes that I keep being sidetracked!

[Gamewizard]

Originally Posted by Seek

1. Which is halfway through the game. At this point I think the usefulness of +2 food is significantly less than the first half. Moreover, do you take Autocracy every game? I certainly don't.. Btw, has Police State been buffed or nerfed? I think the latter. Of course this all depends on what vanilla SPs are changed or kept here.

2. Yes, wonders will be much more relevant now! Tbh, I have been building fewer and fewer wonders as of late. They will be quite a bit harder to choose between as well I think.

At first look I would say Police State is buffed, and by buffed I mean by it being more interesting and fun, rather than just picking the policy and instantly having lots of happiness, but now you have to un-annex the city by building the courthouse (keeping the building relevant), which makes more sense to me.

And I agree about wonders, I've almost stopped building them, only GEing the later powerful ones. I particularly like the new Hanging Gardens...I don't think I ever built the current one. I feel they did a good job buffing the weak ones (Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Great Lighthouse, Great Wall, Notre Dame) while nerfing powerful ones (Cristo, Great Library, Sistine Chapel, Stonehenge). Also good job nerfing the National College which I've always thought is OP.

[Gamewizard]

I also really like what they did with Piety, focusing on the religious type buildings. Gives a good image of being a state dedicated to religion. Plus I never liked Theocracy (although I think 10% gold is low, a city would need 20 gold base income just to negate the temple's cost). Honor got buffed well and I think Thal deserves a lot of credit here. Commerce still seems weak, compared to Thal's Commerce especially.