Deity OCC

[RedKi-rr]

Is it possible to win OCC game at Deity in Civ2? If yes - is it easy? And is there any strategy? What if you are in isolation?

P.S. I create this thread by accident (forgot that there is almost the same topic below).
Could somebody copy here Paul's guide? (his page is in German and unaccessible)

[Ali Ardavan]

It is indeed possible to win Deity OCC in Civ2. It is not easy, but if you know what you are doing you can win most of the time. Pual's guide, even though old, is still the only guide on OCC. Some CFC players like TimTheEnchanter and ElephantU are master OCC players and could expand/improve on the guide. I have been thinking about writing an OCC guide myself, but have never put in the time. I do not have the guide handy, but I know I have downloaded it at some point in time. If no one can point out a link to it, I can upload it.

[RedKi-rr]

Oh, it's indeed not so easy as I expected...
I easily won usual deity as I got some nice guide.
Diplomats, we love the president day, fundamentalism are great for this...

I will be very grateful for any good workable links.

Also, for instance, in civ3 or civ4 there are nice diplomacy and you can trade techs and bribe AIs. But not in civ1 or civ2, in these ones you should wisely choose place and wonders and so on.

[Magic_gorter]

English OCC version

[RedKi-rr]

Thanks a lot!

[RedKi-rr]

Eventually, I won random Deity OCC game. I could lost it as well. I was lucky with AIs and their wars. Date doesn't matter for me)

It's interesting to note several moments. When I begin it recently it seemed to me that civ2 OCC is easier than civ1 OCC. You can trade techs with AIs, rivers are much stronger, you can win Colossus almost always...But the end of game looks like disaster. AIs demand Spaceship's techs and brake alliance, eventaually this "ally" attack you after launching (so, need good millitary as well). It's rather competetive and fun. You won't see this in civ1, but it has its own special problems (greatly cheating and aggressive AIs, Colossus at 3300 BC, less commerce and so on).
Well, I had a lot of fun with these OCC!))

One more questions - what is the average date for launching? What is a good date for average start? And - Is Emperor OCC with one settler considerablly easier?

[Ali Ardavan]

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

Eventually, I won random Deity OCC game.

Congratulations.

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

...But the end of game looks like disaster. AIs demand Spaceship's techs and brake alliance, eventaually this "ally" attack you after launching (so, need good millitary as well). It's rather competetive and fun.

That is indeed often the case but it depends a lot on geography. In fact, when I expect it to happen I spend several terms getting ready for it prior to building Apollo and starting the space race. I build barracks, airports, and sea ports to allow me to build vet units. Then I build as many advanced units as my shield support allows. The ideal is to defend before launch with what you have and replenish your units afterwards but many a time I have had to halt the space race to build military units.

Geography plays a big role in this. If the rivals are close and are on your land piece major military conflict is a lot more likely.

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

One more questions - what is the average date for launching? What is a good date for average start?

Dates depends on geography as well. You can look through GOTM results to get some sample dates. If you do, look at older results, many OCC players like ElephantU and TimTheEnchanter have since left.

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

And - Is Emperor OCC with one settler considerablly easier?

As for emperor vs. deity my opinion is that deity is easier. Before Shakespeare and Republic, you have an extra content citizen in emperor which makes things a little easier. After either Republic or Shakespeare that difference becomes negligible. In Deity the AI have an extra edge but that does not make a big difference either. On the other hand, you get a second none settler at the start in deity which is a huge advantage.

[RedKi-rr]

@Ali Ardavan, thank for your answers!

Indeed, its better to build some defence (including sam defence etc.) before launching. But I realized that only after several broken Spaceships...%) I think the same attack should be in civ4 as well. For example, in culture and space victories. AI should always bertray in such dangerous situations. But at friendly it never attacks.

I completely agree that geography plays a big role, and would add an interactions between civs. Sometimes one civ eats others and runaway.

I am unfamiliar with GOTM's. Unfotunately for me. It seems that it is one of the most interesting challenges in different civs.
I briefly checked GOTM for civ2, but find only OCC for other levels mostly. I will try again.

I read you thread about comparing Emp. OCC and Deity OCC. It's interesting, but I think that there are more things than just one content citizen. I tried several times both these, and wonder grabbing was easier at Emperor, manipulating with AIs also seems easier. Another question - is free settler important up to Republic? Even at Monarchy that +2 food is not huge, but may be I am completely wrong rising the city up to 8 and playing some time with Monarchy at this size.
I tried to play according to gides, but always did something wrong. So, my launchind date is just about 1950AD, i try to trade minimally with AI and try to techlead as long as possible, i never use caravans to trade with AI (it looks like one big difficult chapter in the book%) ), my land usually rather average (which i can get in most of starts). Oh, now I always build United Nations%)) In civ1 and in civ2.

BtW, about success probability...
Look this one
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=78349
I found out it by accident when was looking for GOTM by your advice)

[haleewud]

Until I found CivFanatics, I never did much trading (caravans or freight) with the AI either. But in an OCC, it is very important to trade as often as possible. Along with the gold that you get, you get the same number of beakers towards you next advance. If you get a good OCC site (similar to a good SSC site if you know what that means), a single delivery can yield 1000+ (or even more) gold. This can help you buy all sorts of stuff (like more caravans or spaceship parts) much faster than you can build them.

In GOTM 114, all of the players were required to play OCC. When I was starting to build my spaceship, I had over 12000 gold. Most of that money was from delivering freight to the AIs. I delivered 44 caravans or freight in that game to the AI for over 26000 gold. I was able to basically buy the spaceship one piece at a time (although, my city could produce 80 shields per turn, so I was able to build the Structural units without any gold).

[Major Advantage]

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

I completely agree that geography plays a big role, and would add an interactions between civs. Sometimes one civ eats others and runaway.

You are totally right about that. I recently replayed GOTM122 as OCC and failed. My life-long allies, the Carthagians, managed to conquer the whole planet by the time my spaceship was completed. Then they broke the alliance, destroyed all my city improvements in one turn and stockpiled tons of tanks outside my city.
I didn't want to lose, so I decided not to play any further.

Concerning trade: Each rbd shield for a wonder or SS-part will cost 4g, so it makes sense to deliver the van/freight instead if the payout will be >200g. And this consideration does not include the additional science you get with the delivery.
And of course, your three trade routes can't be established too early, regardless of the delivery payouts.

[Ali Ardavan]

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

I am unfamiliar with GOTM's. Unfotunately for me. It seems that it is one of the most interesting challenges in different civs.

Go to the GOTM forum and download the latest game (currently GOTM 123). Play it till you know where all the rivals are. Post your comments/log/status in the spoiler thread and see how others are doing.

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

I read you thread about comparing Emp. OCC and Deity OCC. It's interesting, but I think that there are more things than just one content citizen. I tried several times both these, and wonder grabbing was easier at Emperor, manipulating with AIs also seems easier.

That is indeed true and I discuss these, and other things, in that thread. However, a second settler at start is a huge advantage and I do not think these other things measure up to it.

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

Another question - is free settler important up to Republic?

That is not the right way to look at it. It is true that under republic/democracy you can celebrate one size up as long as you have at least one extra food so anything over +1 is next to immaterial. And most of the 40 shields towards a settler can be bought. The value of the settler is all it does up to that point. In a regular game you can build a second city with it in a few turns which is a huge advantage. In OCC, or in games when terraforming is essential at the beginning the work that the settler does makes a big difference at a time when everything is scarce. At the beginning you typically have 1 arrow towards science. If a settler can build a road and make that 2, you can finish those early techs twice as fast and get to Monarchy, Trade, Map making, and some other essential techs much faster.

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

i try to trade minimally with AI and try to tech lead as long as possible, i never use caravans to trade with AI (it looks like one big difficult chapter in the book%) )

Big mistake. Trade is by far the most powerful feature of the game as others have already pointed out. Here is the simplest rule of success at Civ2: When in doubt as to what to build, build a settler or a van.

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

BtW, about success probability...
Look this one
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=78349
I found out it by accident when was looking for GOTM by your advice)

Its author ElephantU, was one of the most prolific OCCers around here. I do not agree with all he says there, but most of it is good and relevant.

[RedKi-rr]

I will try GOTM 123. Hope my version of the game is suitable)

Saying about the second settler I automatically meant OCC games. Here you can road 1-2 squares and then settle this one settler. With 3 arrows come to monarhcy and then build a settler (at monarchy -2 food is not so much). I can say nothing about usual game, but in OCC games I felt myself more comfortable (I think mainly due to the wonders). For the perfect playing the second settler can be better. However, in most cases (considering level of player, geography) Emperor is easier, probably.

Now I'm going to try Emperor OCC with one settler, before I won Emperor OCC with 2 settlers and Deity and lost Emperor OCC with 1 settler (I made a lot of mistakes here, especially didn't build defense after launching%)).

In civ2 its possible to have only 3 trade caravans and suitable goods provide x2 revenue (IIRC. I did it long time ago. So, I can muss it). Eventually you will have benefits from them only from time to time (at least without chain of ship). Althouht 1000+ per caravan/freight seems very attractive) Usually my city gives 1100 (+-200) bpt at the end...So, i will defenitely try trade caravans in my next game). It will be nice on railroaded continent.

BtW, question about GOTM. How its possible to find out whether it was the first try of the game or not? Or all these stuff just based on truth and traditions?

[Ali Ardavan]

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

BtW, question about GOTM. How its possible to find out whether it was the first try of the game or not? Or all these stuff just based on truth and traditions?

It is based on truth, tradition, and honor. You turn in up to three saved files at years +1, +1000, and right before victory. Certain things can be checked. But many more cannot.

[RedKi-rr]

@Ali Ardavan, I see...It's very interesting when there are such traditions.

I reconsider a little bit my opinion about the second settler) There were a couple of games where the second settler would be very very nice. Now I think that Emperor OCC vs. Deity OCC mostly depends on geographic. Sometimes having only one settler doesn't make much differ.

And I tried trading! It's amazing! It saved for me about 20-30 turns...But the number of trade caravans is bouned, isn't it?

Also, I tried the last 2 GOTMs) Rather interesting) I read some threads, and the discussions begin from the resourse distribution pattern.%) Is there any thread about this?

BtW, Ali Ardavan, what is your best OCC landing date?And what is average?

@Major Advantage, GOTM122 I also played as OCC (I know its late, but I have information only from your post here). Landed at 1915 AD, it seems to me that it is rather comfortable map for OCC. Well, and it found out to be my best OCC game at this moment) The Carthagians are strong here, but according to my last experience its better to build UN and say good bye to all AIs and not to give them Railroad and other things. In my game no AI has SS strucure...When did you begin to build Spaceship? Also probably we just have different versions))

[Major Advantage]

In that game, i launched my spaceship in 1860, so it would have landed in 1875. That was rather early by my standards, usually I reach AC around 1900.
And something funny I encountered in other OCC-games: Twice the spanish managed to launch their ship a few turns before I could, however they didn't have nuclear fusion, so my ship could overtake theirs in outer space.

[Ali Ardavan]

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

And I tried trading! It's amazing! It saved for me about 20-30 turns...But the number of trade caravans is bouned, isn't it?

No it is not. At times all your commodities get blocked, but they will open up after a while.

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

I read some threads, and the discussions begin from the resourse distribution pattern.%) Is there any thread about this?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=191447

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

BtW, Ali Ardavan, what is your best OCC landing date?And what is average?

I do not know. Nor do I think it is a relevant piece of data. Map, starting location, and locations of rivals all make a big difference.

[Ali Ardavan]

In 2005, I decided on a long term project. To play OCC on earth with historical positions as all different nations. The project is still on going.

My first game was Emperor on large World that ships with the game, second one was Deity on custom designed extra large world (larger than 10K tiles). After that I decided to standardize and all the games were played as Deity with 7 rivals on the large World map that shipped with the game with the specials distributed randomly. Below are my landing dates. More details are available if anyone cares.

Persian 1901
Japanese 1833
English Lost in 1916. Celts were in the game.
Zulu 1908
Celt 1880 (English were in the game, I learned from past experience)
Viking 1867
Aztec 1897
Roman 1849
Sioux 1892
Aborigenese 1857 (starting in New Zealand)
Russian 1873
Cuban 1876
Hawaian 1903 (1 tile island and I had access to only one special: a fish)
Babylonian 1888
Carthaginian 1929
American 1890

I have played many OCC games, but I think the earth ones are most interesting. The most challenging and exciting games are when you start in the old world: Middle east, Europe, and North Africa.

[RedKi-rr]

@Ali Ardavan, impressive dates!

Thanks a lot for the link.

I realize that I waste about 40-50 turns somewhere...One of the main differences that I don't build Marco Polo. I think I need improve this. Using caravans boosted me, the same could do Marco Polo.

BtW, Does anybody build United Nations? And which is the usual wonder ordering?
Mine - Colossus, Copernicus, the Theatre, the College, Darwin, United Nations (or subst with Darwin)
I prefere safe play - I mean let's AIs will be backward instead of me forward.

@Major Advantage, your date is almost Jokemasters one. Well, I need improve my game somewhere)) At least I have some experience now)

[Major Advantage]

Originally Posted by Ali Ardavan

Hawaian 1903 (1 tile island and I had access to no specials)

So you did it with just one tile of land and nothing but bare ocean around you???
That is great!

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

@Ali Ardavan, impressive dates!

Thanks a lot for the link.

I realize that I waste about 40-50 turns somewhere...One of the main differences that I don't build Marco Polo. I think I need improve this. Using caravans boosted me, the same could do Marco Polo.

BtW, Does anybody build United Nations? And which is the usual wonder ordering?
Mine - Colossus, Copernicus, the Theatre, the College, Darwin, United Nations (or subst with Darwin)
I prefere safe play - I mean let's AIs will be backward instead of me forward.

@Major Advantage, your date is almost Jokemasters one. Well, I need improve my game somewhere)) At least I have some experience now)

Marco Polo is not always necessary, if you are on a huge continent you will find the AIs sooner or later anyway. However it is nice to know what techs they have and what they are researching and where your offshore-trading-partners are, so Marco is nice thing to have.
I don't always build Darwin though. Those two techs are nice, but at that time, I usually get advances every 2 or 3 turns. And Darwin requires 400 shields = 8 vans (or 7 and some city production), so it's eating up a lot wonder/spaceship-storage. So if you already have a huge stockpile of vans, it should be used to build Darwin, if not, reconsider if it is worth it.
UN will definitely make things "safer" in the end. However, it is not always necessary, especially if you are far ahead in techs and I don't mind a few AI-dragoons wasting their life while attacking my tanks. UN also requires a lot of vans, which you will need soon after for Apollo and your spaceship.
So again, it is a depends-on-the-situation-wonder.

[Ali Ardavan]

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

..One of the main differences that I don't build Marco Polo. I think I need improve this. Using caravans boosted me, the same could do Marco Polo.

Majoir Advantage already gave a very good answer to this. Let me just add that in a typical game Marco is almost always my first wonder. You usually get quite a few techs by trading at that point. In fact, in my more recent games I minimize science as soon as I discover Trade till I build Marco. Alliances, gifts, tributes, and maps are all very valuable at this point in the game.

Playing on earth with standard starting positions, however, means that you know where your rivals are. By that time in the game you know at least 4 and possibly all your rivals (from top 5 cities). Maps are thus not as valuable. Furthermore, if you start in Europe, Middle East, or North Africa by that time you have run into at least half your rivals and done exchanges with them. Therefore, at times playing OCC on earth I have skipped Marco.

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

BtW, Does anybody build United Nations?

Rarely in an OCC game. It sets you back quite a few turns and I do not think its worth justifies that.

Originally Posted by RedKi-rr

And which is the usual wonder ordering?
Mine - Colossus, Copernicus, the Theatre, the College, Darwin, United Nations (or subst with Darwin)

I rarely build Darwin in OCC games for the reasons Major Advantage has already described. My order is typically Marco, Colossus, Shakespeare, Copernicus, Newton, Apollo. Sometimes I build Hanging Gardens but it is a risky move. At times I build Colossus before Marco and Copernicus before Shakespeare. Depending on the geography Lighthouse and King Richards are added to the mix. Sometimes I build Eiffel right after launch to ease tensions for a few turns.

Originally Posted by Major Advantage

So you did it with just one tile of land and nothing but bare ocean around you???
That is great!

Thanks. Looking more closely, I made a mistake in my earlier report. I did have access to one special: a fish. Nevertheless, it was a very challenging and unusual game. It took me till year +200 to build Marco as my first wonder. And then no one wanted to gift me money! I lost Colossus to Indians in +280. It was in +420 that I got my first monetary gift. Every thing depended on the generosity of my allies since with only one shield I had to rush buy everything. I grabbed Copernicus in 540, Shakespeare in 720, and King Richards in 920. Only after building King Richards I could switch to Republic due to shield support. With ample food and no need for terrain improvements my capital quickly grew and maxed out in 1380. Newton came along in 1510. My first trade route came after the Newton (highly unusual but so were many things about this game). Roman Industrialization in 1740 reduced my shield output to zero due to support for my boat which was making much needed deliveries. Second and third routes got established in the 1750s. Miniaturization in 1772 (aided by Darwin) and an offshore platform the next turn finally got me out of the zero shields situation for good.

Space Flight got discovered in 1853 and Apollo built the next turn. My two main allies and benefactors, Romans and Indians, canceled alliance at this point. After building 15 structurals in 15 turns I ran out of funds and the rest took quite a few extra turns. Advanced rivals like Indians discovered key techs like Plastics on their own. By the end most rivals were in the space race but none had a launchable ship when mine arrived which was amazing.

The remote location was a blessing at the end. I did not have to worry about rivals attacking my city and spent no time beefing up defense.