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Old Jul 18, 2011, 05:46 AM   #1
wobuffet
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Avoiding the "warmongering menace to the world label"

It seems to be awfully easy to convince all the AI players that you're a warmongering menace the world. I don't have any idea exactly what this is based on, however – DoW's made, Cities taken over, damage dealt, units killed, military size, number of turns at war, etc.?

And does it degrade over time, or does the label pretty much stick?


In terms of motivation, I just started a game (King, Standard speed) where I got DoWed by Alexander ("Our proximity has fated us to be enemies") and his two Allied City-States early on. He took over a frontier city of mine, I took it back, then we made peace. I didn't make peace with the two CS's because I wanted to take one or both of them over, and I did manage to take one of them a few turns later.

Lo and behold, 3 of 4 AI Civ's that I've met are convinced I'm a warmonger, even though I didn't start a single war myself.


edit: It's from before the June patch, but I found this thread where some folks have dug into the diplomacy XML files: http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread...erpretation%29

Last edited by wobuffet; Jul 18, 2011 at 06:28 AM.
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Old Jul 18, 2011, 05:53 AM   #2
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Conquering two city states would definitely get you a warmonger label. (That's wiping out 2 complete civilizations)

And taking back your own city didn't help there either; you'd have been better off if you had kept the city from falling to Alex to begin with as far as warmonger status goes.

Basically completely wiping out a civ regardless of who started it is a similar penalty to a DOW. But the penalties are cumulative.
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Old Jul 18, 2011, 06:04 AM   #3
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I don't think you can honestly.
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Old Jul 18, 2011, 06:07 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by joncnunn View Post
Conquering two city states would definitely get you a warmonger label. (That's wiping out 2 complete civilizations)
Nope, just one.

And I assume that the AI doesn't consider taking over a CS nearly as seriously as it does taking over a Major Civ, no?

Really I'd just like some kind of documentation or pointer to the appropriate XML files to investigate myself, if possible.
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Old Jul 18, 2011, 08:26 AM   #5
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Relative size also plays a huge factor. If you really want to avoid it, stay small. Killing Civs and CS seems to add % modifiers to how they perceive you, but really the end decision will be based on how big they perceive you as a threat. If you end up having more than half a continent to yourself, you'll have a hard time convincing the small civs otherwise. It will either be "You are a warmongering menace" or "you build cities too aggressively".
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Old Jul 18, 2011, 08:47 AM   #6
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Yeah in my current game I took over a military CS that was close to me and had a useful luxury resource, the entire world thinks i am a warmonger now ... Probably the last time Ill take over a CS
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Old Jul 18, 2011, 05:02 PM   #7
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Actually, if anything the AIs take wiping out a CS MORE seriously than taking out a major civ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wobuffet View Post

And I assume that the AI doesn't consider taking over a CS nearly as seriously as it does taking over a Major Civ, no?
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Old Jul 18, 2011, 07:27 PM   #8
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this is by far the stupidist insult they have
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Old Jul 18, 2011, 07:59 PM   #9
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Here's how the system works (based on XML variables and study of logs):

Civ B is evaluating Civ A's actions and assigns them a warmonger score. These scores are dependent on Civ B's personality as follows:

temp = 5 * (declarations against majors) + 10 * (majors conquered) + 5 * (declarations against minors) + 10 * (minors conquered)

WM score = (B's warmonger hate) * temp

Notice that the only actions considered are declarations of war and the final blow in conquering a civ. I am certain that these are the only two things considered, city conquering if it is not the last city does not make any difference at all. Also notice that Majors and Minors are considered exactly the same. These actions are only considered if B knows A and the third party at the time the event occurs I believe. Defensive pacts, coop declarations, who they're at war with - all of those things are irrelevant currently, your warmonger rating goes up regardless.

Leader warmonger hate variables range from 1 (Monte) to 8 (Ramk), with a mean and median of 5. Including all DLC, the current distribution is really just limited to 4 through 7:

1: 1 leader
2: 1
3: 1
4: 6
5: 5
6: 5
7: 4
8: 1

"Defenders of the Free World" (7 and up): Ramk, Gandhi, Elizabeth, Washington, Kamehameha
"Do what you like" (3 and under): Montezuma, Alexander, Napoleon

In any given game, these warmonger hate variables are adjusted up or down by up to 2 points (as are all AI personality variable). Then, the WM score above is compared against a series of thresholds to determine the effect on Civ B's opinion of Civ A.

Critical: WM score >= 200 --> -100
Severe: >= 150 --> -70
Major: >= 100 --> -40
Minor: >= 50 --> -15

For reference, a Declaration of Friendship is worth +35, so once you get to Major you will have a very hard time keeping your friends. The "warmongering menace to the world" label will appear for any of the above levels, even Minor. It is not necessarily shown by all leaders who think it, certainly not by deceivers and maybe not by friends.

So, on average, a typical leader with a WM hate of 5 will just reach Minor if you:

1) Declare war twice, or
2) Conquer a CS or civ

Double either the above actions or do both and you get to Major. You really have to play very very nice to avoid getting this label completely.


That's what I understand of the current implementation. I really really hope they address this as part of diplo tweaking in a patch soon ... as it is, it's a real pain and WAY to sensitive for even standard size maps.
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Old Jul 18, 2011, 08:46 PM   #10
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getting your friends to join the war really helps since we now have the "war against common foe" bonus which really helps cancelling out war monger hate for those civs

also when a civ really hates you they find fault with everything, so they'll tend to call you a warmonger even if you've done very little actual mongering. I suspect the interface doesn't distinguish minor war monger from critical (uses the same text regardless) - I think of it as just name calling

looking at the numbers it only takes one CS conquest to push you over 50 and into the minor war monger status

defence pacts shouldn't count - but what can you do

does taking a major civs capital factor in?
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Old Jul 18, 2011, 08:57 PM   #11
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No, taking an original capital has no effect. You can game the system by declaring as little as possible, then taking out original capitals and leaving some minor outlying city or doing most of the work and getting an ally to deal the final blow.

I have managed to game it so that the last two AIs don't consider me more than a minor warmonger even when I've taken out five original capitals. It's cheap, but very effective.
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Old Jul 19, 2011, 04:41 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by That nerdy kid View Post
this is by far the stupidist insult they have
Nah, the award the worst negative modifier without a doubt goes to 'they believe you are trying to win the game in a similar way to them, and they don't like it!'

Completely immersion-breaking, beyond your control, and somehow the AI think they know how you are going to win - 1 before even you do - 2 as soon as they meet you.

It's a terrible modifier and should be completely taken out of the game.
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Old Jul 19, 2011, 05:07 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdog5000 View Post
No, taking an original capital has no effect.
Well, it does carry a permanent diplo penalty with that civ (whose capital you took).


Quote:
I have managed to game it so that the last two AIs don't consider me more than a minor warmonger even when I've taken out five original capitals. It's cheap, but very effective.
How do you know whether you're considered a minor, critical, etc. warmonger?
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Old Jul 19, 2011, 05:59 AM   #14
snarzberry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdog5000 View Post
Here's how the system works (based on XML variables and study of logs):

Civ B is evaluating Civ A's actions and assigns them a warmonger score. These scores are dependent on Civ B's personality as follows:

temp = 5 * (declarations against majors) + 10 * (majors conquered) + 5 * (declarations against minors) + 10 * (minors conquered)

WM score = (B's warmonger hate) * temp

Notice that the only actions considered are declarations of war and the final blow in conquering a civ. I am certain that these are the only two things considered, city conquering if it is not the last city does not make any difference at all. Also notice that Majors and Minors are considered exactly the same. These actions are only considered if B knows A and the third party at the time the event occurs I believe. Defensive pacts, coop declarations, who they're at war with - all of those things are irrelevant currently, your warmonger rating goes up regardless.

Leader warmonger hate variables range from 1 (Monte) to 8 (Ramk), with a mean and median of 5. Including all DLC, the current distribution is really just limited to 4 through 7:

1: 1 leader
2: 1
3: 1
4: 6
5: 5
6: 5
7: 4
8: 1

"Defenders of the Free World" (7 and up): Ramk, Gandhi, Elizabeth, Washington, Kamehameha
"Do what you like" (3 and under): Montezuma, Alexander, Napoleon

In any given game, these warmonger hate variables are adjusted up or down by up to 2 points (as are all AI personality variable). Then, the WM score above is compared against a series of thresholds to determine the effect on Civ B's opinion of Civ A.

Critical: WM score >= 200 --> -100
Severe: >= 150 --> -70
Major: >= 100 --> -40
Minor: >= 50 --> -15

For reference, a Declaration of Friendship is worth +35, so once you get to Major you will have a very hard time keeping your friends. The "warmongering menace to the world" label will appear for any of the above levels, even Minor. It is not necessarily shown by all leaders who think it, certainly not by deceivers and maybe not by friends.

So, on average, a typical leader with a WM hate of 5 will just reach Minor if you:

1) Declare war twice, or
2) Conquer a CS or civ

Double either the above actions or do both and you get to Major. You really have to play very very nice to avoid getting this label completely.


That's what I understand of the current implementation. I really really hope they address this as part of diplo tweaking in a patch soon ... as it is, it's a real pain and WAY to sensitive for even standard size maps.
Thanks for the work, good stuff.

So you only accrue warmonger hate for DoW's and wiping out a civ/cs completely. This means that if a civ DoWs you, say in an early rush, and you survive and go on to take all of their cities bar one that you will generate zero warmonger hate for all of your gains.
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Old Jul 19, 2011, 07:53 AM   #15
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Do you accrue war mongering points if you are isolated and have not met other civs yet? ie is it safe to take out CS's (or another civ) prior to meeting other civs?
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Old Jul 19, 2011, 08:55 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by MisterBoomBoom View Post
Do you accrue war mongering points if you are isolated and have not met other civs yet? ie is it safe to take out CS's (or another civ) prior to meeting other civs?
It still affects them...

I'm curious though. I frequently smack a Civ out of existence as part of an early push, and yet afterwards I'm still perfectly fine to RA/Trade with everyone else and they still send me DOFs which I usually accept based on how likely I think these people will be involved in wars (I try not to DOF people with lots of rivals sorta deal)

I can see how it can stack quickly, but you get no penalty if you got DOWed and kill everything except a single city. You can be seriously aggressive and still keep friends.

+35 for DOF is the modifier or does it reduce your warmonger status by that much?
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Old Jul 19, 2011, 09:07 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by wobuffet View Post
It seems to be awfully easy to convince all the AI players that you're a warmongering menace the world. I don't have any idea exactly what this is based on, however – DoW's made, Cities taken over, damage dealt, units killed, military size, number of turns at war, etc.?

And does it degrade over time, or does the label pretty much stick?


In terms of motivation, I just started a game (King, Standard speed) where I got DoWed by Alexander ("Our proximity has fated us to be enemies") and his two Allied City-States early on. He took over a frontier city of mine, I took it back, then we made peace. I didn't make peace with the two CS's because I wanted to take one or both of them over, and I did manage to take one of them a few turns later.

Lo and behold, 3 of 4 AI Civ's that I've met are convinced I'm a warmonger, even though I didn't start a single war myself.


edit: It's from before the June patch, but I found this thread where some folks have dug into the diplomacy XML files: http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread...erpretation%29
Something I know no one talked about yet is your actual mistake.

You can fight CSs, even kill them, with less hate against you when they are allied with a Major Civ that is also at war with you. No one will complain. (much. a few high CS lovers will)

The moment you made peace with alex, and not the CSs, you opened yourself up to being hated by everyone else, as there was no 'reason' for you to be fighting the CSs anymore.
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Old Jul 19, 2011, 09:14 AM   #18
wobuffet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdog5000 View Post
Here's how the system works (based on XML variables and study of logs):

...

That's what I understand of the current implementation. I really really hope they address this as part of diplo tweaking in a patch soon ... as it is, it's a real pain and WAY to sensitive for even standard size maps.
Wow, thanks so much for sharing this knowledge! Great to know. Do the critical/severe/major/minor distinctions appear at all ingame?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MadDjinn View Post
Something I know no one talked about yet is your actual mistake.

You can fight CSs, even kill them, with less hate against you when they are allied with a Major Civ that is also at war with you. No one will complain. (much. a few high CS lovers will)

The moment you made peace with alex, and not the CSs, you opened yourself up to being hated by everyone else, as there was no 'reason' for you to be fighting the CSs anymore.
This makes a lot of sense, actually. There should really be some dialogue that pops up asking "You have made peace with (or eliminated) Alexander. Would you like to make peace with <City-State(s) allied with Alex>?"
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Old Jul 19, 2011, 01:31 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by MisterBoomBoom View Post
Do you accrue war mongering points if you are isolated and have not met other civs yet? ie is it safe to take out CS's (or another civ) prior to meeting other civs?
I know that you can can take out a CS and have no warmonger penalty from Civ X if X has met neither you nor the CS. It's harder to figure out whether you're safe if they know you but not the CS, or know the CS and not you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snarzberry View Post
Thanks for the work, good stuff.

So you only accrue warmonger hate for DoW's and wiping out a civ/cs completely. This means that if a civ DoWs you, say in an early rush, and you survive and go on to take all of their cities bar one that you will generate zero warmonger hate for all of your gains.
Correct. Being declared on, and then leaving them alive, will leave you with no warmonger penalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wobuffet View Post
Well, it does carry a permanent diplo penalty with that civ (whose capital you took).

How do you know whether you're considered a minor, critical, etc. warmonger?
True, there is now (new in the June patch) the diplo penalty with the civ whose original capital you took, and if they denounce you (which they will) that can have side effects. But there's no warmonger effect.

I know the level of warmonger hate by peeking in the diplo AI logs after the game or to see the effects of in game actions. That's part of how I figured this out, filling in the rest by connecting the dots with XML variables and such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furycrab View Post
+35 for DOF is the modifier or does it reduce your warmonger status by that much?
Each civ has an internal opinion of you which they never tell you that guides their interactions with you. Having a DoF boosts this internal opinion of you by 35 points, while being labeled a Major warmonger drops it by 40 ... so if both are true, then their opinion of you is 5 points lower than before.

You can read more about opinions and such in the link at the bottom of the FP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wobuffet View Post
Wow, thanks so much for sharing this knowledge! Great to know. Do the critical/severe/major/minor distinctions appear at all ingame
You're welcome It's a confusing system which is why I investigated in the first place.

There is no visibility of warmonger level in game - you get the same "warmongering menace" message at Minor and at Critical. This is part of the confusion with the system, I think a less intense message for Minor and Major would help (along with other reforms). You can see these things in AI log files if you turn on logging.
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Old Jul 19, 2011, 06:23 PM   #20
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Thanks, Jdog5000!
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