Civ5 Civilizations/Leaders Wanted!

[chrissifniotis]

Originally Posted by Kurtbob

The Stone Works Zimbabwe idea isn't dead yet. I just wanted to see if others liked my expansionist Bantu idea with a unique settler.

Bah. I totally forgot to include the denfensive bonus for the Zimbabwe! That's the whole reason I focused on stone so much in the first place... I noticed you gave Quarriers, instead of just stone, a food bonus and a gold bonus. I assumed we were staying away from granting extra bonuses to Marble but the vanilla stone works does give a bonus to marble so it would be unfair to leave out a bonus for marble for the Zimbabwe. I also think, following this logic, that stone or marble can be a requirement to build the Zimbabwe since the vanilla can be built with one or the other.

Alrighty. Zimbabwe as a UB needs:

1. stone defense bonus (to illustrate the importance of it's unmasoned stone walls)
2. Stone food bonus (safe haven for population)
OR
3. Trade bonus
I don't think the Zimbabwe can have a gold and food bonus. Might become OP'd.

1: +1. +1,, and +2 city defense from stone. +1 from Marble. Requires Stone or Marble near city.

2.: +1. +1, and +2 city defense from stone. +1 from Marble. +10% trade route yield. Requires Stone or Marble near city.

What do you think?

Eh, don't mind me on the Settler UU, maybe I need to see it at work to appreciate it more. I always want to be sure of things as I observe the concepts in game, it's why I'm holding off my own civ ideas and editing other ones I've posted until G+K is out, I'd like to get Faith, Religion and Espionage down before I get on with it.

I was trying a last ditch effort to incorperate a financial ability using Marble, it can be striken if it's no good. Having said that I'm happy with number 2 without the +1 Gold per Marble tile.

[Kurtbob]

Originally Posted by chrissifniotis

Eh, don't mind me on the Settler UU, maybe I need to see it at work to appreciate it more. I always want to be sure of things as I observe the concepts in game, it's why I'm holding off my own civ ideas and editing other ones I've posted until G+K is out, I'd like to get Faith, Religion and Espionage down before I get on with it.

I was trying a last ditch effort to incorperate a financial ability using Marble, it can be striken if it's no good. Having said that I'm happy with number 2 without the +1 Gold per Marble tile.

Ok. We can lose the +1 from marble but we should keep the +1 since it was in the vanilla version. I also forgot that Stone Works grants +1 in a city too.

So. Zimbabwe. +1. +1 . +1 from quarries. +2 defense per stone resource in city radius. +10% trade route yield. Requires Stone or Marble in city radius.

A city with four stone and one marble (the best quarry start I have personally ever seen) would have an additional (assuming it has the population) +6, +8 defense, +1, and the 10% trade yield. Not too overpowered I think.

So assuming the Bantu use this instead of a Unique Settler, how could we mesh the Zimbabwe with a REX ICS Unique Ability? Or is the trade route bonus good enough?

[chrissifniotis]

Originally Posted by Kurtbob

REX ICS Unique Ability?

Sorry, would you mind explaining the term 'REX ICS' for me?
*Japanese accent* Ai no spiku Ingurishu.

I liked the last UA you did before, first four cities get free Zimbabwe upon Calendar.

[CivOasis]

REX = Rapid Expansion
ICS = Infinite City Sprawl (frowned upon, and the patches have tried to kill this strategy)

[Kurtbob]

Originally Posted by chrissifniotis

Sorry, would you mind explaining the term 'REX ICS' for me?
*Japanese accent* Ai no spiku Ingurishu.

I liked the last UA you did before, first four cities get free Zimbabwe upon Calendar.

CivOasis summed it up nicely. The Bantu UA should be all about REX, rapid expansion.

I'm a bit iffy about granting four free unique buildings, especially if they have a build requirement. The free walls simulated the importance of a Zimbabwe's un-masoned stone walls. The Zimbabwe building does the same thing and threfore shouldn't also be included in the UA (double representation is OP IMO).

So, the Bantu would look like this:

Civilization: Bantu
Leader: Shaka
UA: Great Migration: Growth in cities is not affected by settler production. -33% unhappiness from number of cities.

UU1: Zimbabwe - +1. +1 . +1 from quarries. +2 defense per stone resource in city radius. +10% trade route yield. Requires Stone or Marble in city radius.

UU2: Impi: Replaces Warrior. Cost 40. Combat 6. -1 movement cost to move into enemy ZOC.

What do you think? Too bland? Just right? Settler idea was better?

[Kurtbob]

Originally Posted by chrissifniotis

I always want to be sure of things as I observe the concepts in game, it's why I'm holding off my own civ ideas and editing other ones I've posted until G+K is out, I'd like to get Faith, Religion and Espionage down before I get on with it.

I understand this. I'm sure many people are holding off their new / revised Civ ideas until G&K comes out. I think the Bantu idea is workable since it doesn't incorporate faith, religion, or espionage bonses. I would assume G&K wont prevent a REX game strategy, but you never know.

[CivOasis]

Well, I can't say I'm too fond of merging the Bantu states together. I know Zulu have some fan history, but, IMO, either Zimbabwe or the Swahili would be better choices. I'm not 100% positive on leaders for Zimbabwe, which would be the more likely of the two, but the Swahili are definitely doable.

[Kurtbob]

Originally Posted by CivOasis

Well, I can't say I'm too fond of merging the Bantu states together. I know Zulu have some fan history, but, IMO, either Zimbabwe or the Swahili would be better choices. I'm not 100% positive on leaders for Zimbabwe, which would be the more likely of the two, but the Swahili are definitely doable.

Right. I know a lot of people out there don't want to just mix the dozens and dozens of Bantu peoples together in one group. Zulu, Xhosa, Swahili, Mbundu, Lingala, Chewa, Sukuma, Ganda, etc might all have a place in Civ. Just for the sake of discussion, what African civs would people like to see assuming a Bantu civ is not desirable?

I assume:

Zulu - Dominant group of peoples in South Africa before the British.
Zimbabwe - Large enclosed settlements

Swahili is important, but I don't know if its civ worthy. I have a very limited knowledge of Swahili though. Isn't it a language used by a large population of East African Muslims? Perhaps you can enlighten me

I personally still do like the Bantu idea, but I do like being persuaded by better ideas.

[CivOasis]

Well, historically, the Swahili were a group of associated trading sultanates, known most significantly for their highly specialised trading cities, which often required to trade inland to maintain food for themselves. They set up and conducted trade as far away as China (known to have traded African animals such as giraffes over there). Additionally, with the help of the sultanate in Oman, they repelled Portuguese colonisation.

They would definitely be more trade-oriented, but their language, at the bare minimum, has left a continuing mark on the region.

[chrissifniotis]

Originally Posted by Kurtbob

Just for the sake of discussion, what African civs would people like to see assuming a Bantu civ is not desirable?

My personal preferences are the Zulu, Mali, Kongo and Swahili. A quick look through the map and I might think of some more.

[Pouakai]

Africa could easily have this:

Kanem-Bornu
Zimbabwe
Zulu
Kongo
Swahili
Tuareg (Potentially)
Ghana (As above)

[Kurtbob]

Originally Posted by CivOasis

Well, historically, the Swahili were a group of associated trading sultanates, known most significantly for their highly specialised trading cities, which often required to trade inland to maintain food for themselves. They set up and conducted trade as far away as China (known to have traded African animals such as giraffes over there). Additionally, with the help of the sultanate in Oman, they repelled Portuguese colonisation.

They would definitely be more trade-oriented, but their language, at the bare minimum, has left a continuing mark on the region.

Hmmm....they sound as if they should have a UA that mirrors Arabia's. I honestly wouldn't mind Arabia receiving a new Faith based UA, with the oil bonus, and another civ like the Swahili having Arabia's old UA.

What would be the Swahili uniques? From my limited interent search, it dosen't appear that there is/was a 'Swahilia' though their obviously is a Swahili peoples and language.

[Nyanko]

Originally Posted by Kurtbob

Hmmm....they sound as if they should have a UA that mirrors Arabia's. I honestly wouldn't mind Arabia receiving a new Faith based UA, with the oil bonus, and another civ like the Swahili having Arabia's old UA.

What would be the Swahili uniques? From my limited interent search, it dosen't appear that there is/was a 'Swahilia' though their obviously is a Swahili peoples and language.

There wasn't really a unified Phoenicia ether, They were just the coastal Canaanites. Nor was there a unified ancient greek state. Just the cultural association of being "Greek". I think if you could find a list of cities a Swhahili and a half decent leader, they could make a compelling civ.

On the Bantu, I really don't like the idea of a REX orientated civ, it just seems wrong to me

Originally Posted by chrissifniotis

@ Nyanko: Excellent idea! Again when time permits I'll be sure to check the Koori later on.

Thanks for commenting

[Pouakai]

Originally Posted by Kurtbob

Hmmm....they sound as if they should have a UA that mirrors Arabia's. I honestly wouldn't mind Arabia receiving a new Faith based UA, with the oil bonus, and another civ like the Swahili having Arabia's old UA.

What would be the Swahili uniques? From my limited interent search, it dosen't appear that there is/was a 'Swahilia' though their obviously is a Swahili peoples and language.

The mod 'Zambezi' that myself and several others (foremost including Cyon, sukritact and CivOasis) are working on is an expansion of African representation in the game. The Swahili civilization we have is featuring a Dhow UU, IIRC a Coral Port UB (although an oceanic UI could potentially work) and a UI representing Coastal trade, potentially international?

[chrissifniotis]

Originally Posted by Nyanko

There wasn't really a unified Phoenicia ether, They were just the coastal Canaanites. Nor was there a unified ancient greek state. Just the cultural association of being "Greek". I think if you could find a list of cities a Swhahili and a half decent leader, they could make a compelling civ.

On the Bantu, I really don't like the idea of a REX orientated civ, it just seems wrong to me


Thanks for commenting

No worries, seeing as an Australia civ idea is up, no reason not to post Aboriginal Australia.

You also make good points on Phoenicia and Greece.

[CivOasis]

For a non-Bantu civ in sub-sahelian Africa, the Malagasy (under the Merina Kingdom) could be a good one.

[Kurtbob]

Originally Posted by Pouakai

The mod 'Zambezi' that myself and several others (foremost including Cyon, sukritact and CivOasis) are working on is an expansion of African representation in the game. The Swahili civilization we have is featuring a Dhow UU, IIRC a Coral Port UB (although an oceanic UI could potentially work) and a UI representing Coastal trade, potentially international?

Very cool. A Dhow UU would be a welcome addition. What is a Coral Port? A port made partly or entirely of coral? A port near a coral reef? A port that deals in the trading / manufacturing of coral and coral merchandise?

I am looking forward to an African Civ expansion/Mod. Kudos to you guys for puting forth the energy and time to make it happen.

@Nyanko
My statement 'there is no 'Swahilia' was a bit narrow minded and sadly it insinuated I didn't consider peoples without a state Civ worthy, which is untrue. I certainly believe there is a place for all civs, societies, peoples, etc in CiV.

Why is a REX Civ wrong? Is it a play style that is frowned upon? Would the AI be irritating to play against? Or is there just a deep feeling that somehow someway it just wouldn't work?

@CivOasis
A Malagasy (Madagascar) Civ would be interesting. A people of mixed African and Indonesian ancestory (right?) could have some pretty unique abilities, coupled with a very unique homeland, in CiV.

@chrissifniotis
Thanks for all the brain storming for the Bantu. Good times.

[Pouakai]

I'm not entirely sure, Cyon came up with the idea for the Coral Port. I think it's got something to do with some Swahili port towns being built from Coral

[Kurtbob]

Originally Posted by Pouakai

I'm not entirely sure, Cyon came up with the idea for the Coral Port. I think it's got something to do with some Swahili port towns being built from Coral

I see. I looked it up for myself and it does appear that the island community of Lamu, off of the Kenyan coast, did use Coral for construction.

Its a cool idea and I'm sure the Coral Port will have an interesting ability. Seems to me that most Swahili founded cities are coastal or on islands which happend to be rich in coral. Perhaps the Coral Port will grant bonuses for Atolls (increased production and gold perhaps?).

[Nyanko]

Originally Posted by Kurtbob

Why is a REX Civ wrong? Is it a play style that is frowned upon? Would the AI be irritating to play against? Or is there just a deep feeling that somehow someway it just wouldn't work?

I've just never liked the playstyle of REX, even if its the 'most efficient', build a few towns and send out the cavlalry has always been my favorate method, REX and ICS just seems cheap and, "gamey". If we remember, there were a number of nerfs early on that helped limit the prevalence of REX and ICS; So I suspect that its something they dont want to make more powerful than it is.