Modern UUs

[PSPSoldier534]

When I play Civ 5, I find myself biased towards 3 civs. The most overplayed civs, for me, are Germany, America, and Japan. And all those have one thing in common. The Modern Era is by far my favorite one in all of the Civ games, and this one is no exception. I like the massive variation in units to choose from, and deeper strategic decisions that arise as a result, but I do have one gripe with it. If I recall correctly, there are only three late game UUs, the Panzer, B17, and Zero (respectively to the civs I listed in the beginning.) And those are only for the Industrial era (except the B17.) There are no more for the Modern Era, which is disappointing, considering it offers a massive number of units to choose from. I would propose at least one more improved modern unit, and I have ideas that may work:

An M2 Bradley for a Mechanised Infantry improvement. It would be identical to standard Mech Inf, but would gain a +20% bonus against armored units, since they come standard with TOW missiles IRL, and ingame would provide a good counter to tanks (especially Panzers and Modern Armor) if you don't have Aluminum and/or didn't research Lasers.

Or, a Merkava for Modern Armor, since in real life, it is designed to absolutely excel at defense, it should not have the defensive penalty. It could be offered in a DLC or given to one of the Arabian empires if they wouldn't mind maybe adding a third unique slot.

At least in some DLC or expansion, they should include a Civ with a Modern UU or expand the unique characteristics of existing Civs. I always liked the Navy SEAL in Civ 4, for instance. It gave America a massive end game boost if used correctly, and I would very much like such an opportunity to do so in Civ 5 (the Panzers in both games are still great, though.)

[awesome]

i wouldn't really expect them to add a third unique slot, though i guess it's possible.
and the merkava would have to be for an israel civilization, but i really wouldn't expect that anytime soon, either, even if i think it'd be pretty cool.
a paratrooper unit would be pretty cool, too, even if i'm not sure would get it. maybe russia or england?

[Camikaze]

I also enjoy the late game due to the variety on offer, but there is a big problem with late game unique units and buildings, in that they are invariably very underpowered. Panzers, Zeros or B17s do not win you games. They provide a mild advantage in late game warfare, but for most people by that stage the game is either already over or at least well on the way to being over. Leveraging earlier advantages allows you to get to this position. So this is why this is the sort of thing that would be absolutely awesome for a scenario. The late game can be great fun, but introducing more unique units into it isn't good for balance.

[awesome]

some late game buildings might be nice, too

[PSPSoldier534]

Originally Posted by Camikaze

I also enjoy the late game due to the variety on offer, but there is a big problem with late game unique units and buildings, in that they are invariably very underpowered. Panzers, Zeros or B17s do not win you games. They provide a mild advantage in late game warfare, but for most people by that stage the game is either already over or at least well on the way to being over. Leveraging earlier advantages allows you to get to this position. So this is why this is the sort of thing that would be absolutely awesome for a scenario. The late game can be great fun, but introducing more unique units into it isn't good for balance.

Not necessarily. I've had many games where some close calls come in the modern/future era, and I could safely say that if it wasn't for Panzers, I may have lost about 20% of them, and another 15% from B17's. The Zero not so much. Granted it is rare, but when it happens it is significant. And yes, some scenarios in the modern era would be very welcome.

[insaneweasel]

Totally off topic, but I wish there were more early/middle game units. Maybe horse archers, war wagons, mace wielders, etc.

[awesome]

Originally Posted by awesome

some late game buildings might be nice, too

like, uh, the dutch could get the dike again, but it would replace the hydro plant this time. so it could get production from rivers, lakes and coasts instead of just rivers.
and someone else can get a broadcast tower that gives a whole bunch of extra culture

[PSPSoldier534]

Originally Posted by insaneweasel

Totally off topic, but I wish there were more early/middle game units. Maybe horse archers, war wagons, mace wielders, etc.

Can't have any grudge against variety .

[Camikaze]

Originally Posted by PSPSoldier534

Not necessarily. I've had many games where some close calls come in the modern/future era, and I could safely say that if it wasn't for Panzers, I may have lost about 20% of them, and another 15% from B17's. The Zero not so much. Granted it is rare, but when it happens it is significant. And yes, some scenarios in the modern era would be very welcome.

The point is more, though, that if you'd have a UU earlier in the game, the modern/future era wouldn't have been a close call. You'd have already secured the game.

[awesome]

there's a thread in the civ5 general discussions forum about how greece is kind of mediocre partly because of their early units, so not always.

but now that i think of it, having too many late unique units would kind of take away from them being such big game changers, so while a few more would be nice, maybe only having a handful of them is best.

[PSPSoldier534]

Originally Posted by Camikaze

The point is more, though, that if you'd have a UU earlier in the game, the modern/future era wouldn't have been a close call. You'd have already secured the game.

I agree, the majority of games do tend to be decided very early, but I just wanted state that sometimes you are roughly equal to some other opponent, maybe he just got a luckier start versus you, but despite that, you proceeded on fighting over the balance of power and those modern UU's could've greatly helped. It doesn't happen often, but I just like my Panzers . Also, these are nice for late starts, especially when selecting the Industrial age. Basically the same situation as early game just with more advanced units and air power (which can be fun sometimes.)

[Roxlimn]

Originally Posted by Camikaze

The point is more, though, that if you'd have a UU earlier in the game, the modern/future era wouldn't have been a close call. You'd have already secured the game.

That's not necessarily true. For Pangaea settings, it is, but I think there's a reason so many people choose that for higher diff settings - it's just easier to win.

It can be difficult to stage an intercontinental invasion pre-industrial era, especially when you have some small amount of security concerns at home. Faced with a runaway AI, sometimes your only choice is to invade his continent to stall his win con. It's easiest to do this when you have all the tools at your command: fast embarkation speed, bombers, artillery, and tanks.

[civ7]

Originally Posted by Camikaze

I also enjoy the late game due to the variety on offer, but there is a big problem with late game unique units and buildings, in that they are invariably very underpowered. Panzers, Zeros or B17s do not win you games. They provide a mild advantage in late game warfare, but for most people by that stage the game is either already over or at least well on the way to being over. Leveraging earlier advantages allows you to get to this position. So this is why this is the sort of thing that would be absolutely awesome for a scenario. The late game can be great fun, but introducing more unique units into it isn't good for balance.

Bingo. That's why early UUs need to have a small bonus and late UUs a larger bonus, enough to turn the tide.

[PSPSoldier534]

Originally Posted by civ7

Bingo. That's why early UUs need to have a small bonus and late UUs a larger bonus, enough to turn the tide.

That is certainly a good solution.

[Camikaze]

Originally Posted by awesome

there's a thread in the civ5 general discussions forum about how greece is kind of mediocre partly because of their early units, so not always.

Originally Posted by Roxlimn

That's not necessarily true. For Pangaea settings, it is, but I think there's a reason so many people choose that for higher diff settings - it's just easier to win.

It can be difficult to stage an intercontinental invasion pre-industrial era, especially when you have some small amount of security concerns at home. Faced with a runaway AI, sometimes your only choice is to invade his continent to stall his win con. It's easiest to do this when you have all the tools at your command: fast embarkation speed, bombers, artillery, and tanks.

Well yeah, it's a general pattern rather than a hard and fast rule. It inevitably depends on the unit in question, and if it comes too early, then it's going to be hard to use much as well. But the point is the later in the game a unique unit comes, the lower its utility will be.

[PSPSoldier534]

Originally Posted by Camikaze

Well yeah, it's a general pattern rather than a hard and fast rule. It inevitably depends on the unit in question, and if it comes too early, then it's going to be hard to use much as well. But the point is the later in the game a unique unit comes, the lower its utility will be.

Definitely true. I like the solution brought up earlier, to make early UU's weaker and later ones stronger to boost their utilities. It just doesn't seem right to have the early stages of the game so disproportionately more important than the later ones. Makes playing past the medieval era in most games a bit redundant. But then again, you never know when those "close call" games will come in.

[SpetsnazRussian]

Or maybe instead of having say a Modern Armour...have each Civilization to have a unique of it's on countries Main Battle Tank. Such as for Russia...the T-90. Or Germany...the Leopard and have bonus' for each one. Although...for ones say as the Aztec's or Siam...which they would have. It's just a small suggestion...but hey it can be given a try...just like the guy who ranted for Death Robots in Civ5, and then they were put in the game. Many of these idea's are interesting.

[JWAT44]

i think america should have the rapter in place of the jet fighter and have it lose or reduce the penalty for ranged attacks. i like the idea of each civ having its own unique modern armor unit (the leopard or abrams would be the strongest of all)

[headcase]

Originally Posted by awesome

and someone else can get a broadcast tower that gives a whole bunch of extra culture

A unique broadcast tower would be cool because there's a lot of bonuses to choose from that all make sense. More culture, gold, science, great people.

I'd actually probably have it give small bonuses to culture, science, AND gold, making it a nice all-arounder but held back by how late it is in the game.

[PSPSoldier534]

Originally Posted by JWAT44

i think america should have the rapter in place of the jet fighter and have it lose or reduce the penalty for ranged attacks. i like the idea of each civ having its own unique modern armor unit (the leopard or abrams would be the strongest of all)

Well, a good bombardment jet would be nice but for aesthetic purposes it shouldn't be the raptor, as that's a dedicated dogfighting aircraft.