Change America

[digitalcraft]

You have to remember that WWII industrialization was not very long ago. in the grand scheme of things it's a very short period of time. It was remarkable as the one time the US pulled together for a common goal instead of being all "memememe" but its not really a defining characteristic of the US, maybe the opposite.

On the other hand, the expansion of the US on the north American continent is fairly big in the 235 year history of the US. around 200 of the 235 years that was a major thing the US was doing. Maybe one could make an argument for reduced cost settlers in exchange for the +1 sight or something like that.

[mujrim]

Originally Posted by qemist

So what was your precious America's production in the Ancient era? zero, eh. The Classical? zero again. The mediaeval? Zero. I agree, let's have realism and give America zero production until the Industrial period.

Which precious country did you live in that existed during the ancient era?

[PasturedCow]

In reality a lot of the civs don't deserve to exist in the game considering when they were actually founded.

Back to the game itself, america's UA isn't bad but it's hardly a top civ. It could be improved, sure, but there are plenty of other civs that are worse that are in need of greater attention. *cough* england *cough*

[Hasire]

Originally Posted by mujrim

Which precious country did you live in that existed during the ancient era?

China, polynesia, probably japan, Iroquois, Siam.

[awesome]

wikipedia: "Archaeological evidence shows that Iroquois ancestors lived in the Finger Lakes region from at least 1000 AD"

that's not really the ancient era, unless you're making the argument that they represent all native americans. but anyway, if the game is only ancient and classical era civilizations, you might as well not have it go past those eras and that would be a different game.

[Hasire]

What technology state did the iroquois have in 1000 AD? That is the only thing that matters. I would suspect it would be ancient era tech, maybe classical.

[awesome]

living in an era and having technology equivalent to it aren't really the same thing, but moot point

[Revoran]

Originally Posted by SemperFi2382

Don't forget "Seward's Folly" (aka the purchase of Alaska from Russia)

Cheap land purchases is perfect as one of America's traits IMO.

To make it truly perfect they would have to first purchase the land for cheaps, then massacre heaps of natives (Barbarians?) living on said land.

I kiiid, I kiid.

[swmaniac]

Misplaced Nationalism aside, I do think that while the purchase of land and extra sight are... historically based UAs, it's really not powerful enough when compared to the others in the game (Japan, Persia, Russia, France are examples of civs with UAs that are immensely more powerful).

I think the US definitely needs some sort of wartime production boost, but only when at war with a major civ (none of this random city-state garbage). Maybe 20% (lol, arbitrary number) unit production boost when at war with a major power? That could bring it up to the level of the other Civs without, I think, going overboard.

[Rinnero]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
Germany: total military deaths: 5.5 million
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern...orld_War_II%29
Germany: total dead casualties at Eastern Front: 4.3 million

When you evaluate role of each country in war what can be more objective data to compare than this?

The Soviets didn't defeat Japan.

1 million japanese army defeated in 3 weeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...n_of_Manchuria


But enough of this. Everyone interested can just read wiki. What is important is that US's UA barely can have any connection to WWII, unlike for example German's or Russian's. By the way, in Rise of Nations civs had quite diversed and relevant to reality UAs. For example China could build citizens instantly (represents great population), Inca recieved gold when working mountains (represents their huge amount of gold and probably el dorado), Russia doubled attrition (Napoleon and Hitler had hard time fighting at their land).

Here is the list: check who is interested.
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6029147/index.html

Unfortunately it doesnt contain americans (they were added with expansion), so here is their UA:
(as far as I remember)


Power of innovation: (US is quite innovative: both technologically and in terms of human rights and so on)

- one wonder is built instantly (not sure what this represents but gameplay wise that was interesting)
- adopting new form of ruling doesnt cost anything (america likes democracy)
- first scientific tech is free, 1 scientist per university is free (obviously, US is good at techs, just as Japan)
- carriers are 20% cheaper and built faster (america has 11 of 21, and it actively uses it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_carrier)
- each infantry unit produces additional resourses (err... i believe that represents taxes that people (including militaries) pay)


I dont think that its good to copy things, but its not reason not to copy either. Egipt is almost always associated with wonders, Spain is with exploration... The bigger country the more choices it has when choosing UAs. But most of them just dont have that much uniquieness...

So, I think its ok to make UAs based on the same things as in other games.

Converted america's UA will be like:

- first wonder has +50% production modifier if no one builds it yet
- start with 15 culture
- start with 30 science (one free first tech)
- +1specialist slot in scientific buildings
- carrier production +50%
- military units are 50% maitenance

That would be unusual and "US-flavored" civ with unique playstyle and decisions.

If we are to balance it to currently existing civs (therefore lowering uniqueness), we should either have one strong (+1 specialist slot or 50% military maitenance), or several weak.


Or it can be like:

- UA: wonders have +15% production modifier if no one builds it.
- UA: military units are 50% maitenance cost, non military units are 3x maintenance cost.
- UU: Carrier: +4 move, +20% CS, can carry 5 planes.
- UB: Laboratory: 2 extra specialist slots.



We cannot say that USA had the most gross productivity because Soviet countries used other methods of evaluating such numbers.
Also, GDP is actually money, not production. Right now China is becoming a factory of the world.

I undestand that US bought a lot of lands, more than any country. But gameplay wise this ability is extremely useless because of tradition that reduces costs of acquiring tiles by 2-5 times (400->80 or 240->60 for example). Adopt tradition and forget about buying tiles.
+1 sight range doesnt give you anything real except for 1-2 additional ruins (with warrior->spearman update and map of f&%king ocean). Its just funny and you use it out of curiosity.

[Roxlimn]

+1 sight range allows easy target spotting for every siege weapon in every era. It allows Settlers to waltz past barbarians without escort, and makes it easier to plan counterinvasions or the routing of retreating enemy units.

It allows you to size up the size and disposition of enemy troops during peacetime, without having to purchase open borders from Guarded or Hostile enemy nations.

With B17s, +1 sight range allows Paratroopers to paint targets on the terrain of their choosing, in the best defensible locations.

It is an outstanding promotion on key units in every army, and to have your entire army have it, automatically, all the time, is just short of having March on every unit.

[McRoos]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

As far as historical context, I would argue that the industrial powerhouse we created was due to our unique circumstances, not anything special about the American civilization. How many other nations were handed almost an entire continent at their birth to expand into? How many countries out there have the geographical advantages of the USA, with 2 oceans, bountiful farmland, rivers, mountains, resources, etc? And how many of these countries are blessed with awesome natural defenses and have zero enemies nearby to defend themselves from anyway?

What you should add is the fact that the US was able to rapidly shift from a "consumer oriented industry" to a "military focused industry" on a very very large scale.
Historians have always said that that was their best war effort !!!

The weapons were not so impressive. The Germans beat every other nation on all weapons during WWII. They only had one problem.... the could nog produce enough of it.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by McRoos

What you should add is the fact that the US was able to rapidly shift from a "consumer oriented industry" to a "military focused industry" on a very very large scale.
Historians have always said that that was their best war effort !!!

The weapons were not so impressive. The Germans beat every other nation on all weapons during WWII. They only had one problem.... the could nog produce enough of it.

Yeah I fully agree, our (american) industrialization/mobilization for WW2 was incredibly impressive. As the descendent of German Jews, believe me the American war effort is not lost on me (nor the Russians massive sacrifices). I guess my point is just we were dealt a great hand. No matter how well we play it, you can still usually track our advantages back to those starting cards. The fact remains that the massive mobilization just would not have been possible without the geographic advantages we enjoyed for the previous 150 years leading up to WW2.

[Aspon]

this why I don't ask for Germanys unique unit to be the flying saucer they could not produce enough of them and there entire flying saucer production got completely destroyed by allied bombing before a single one could get off the ground.

albeit I fear we may not be done with them because of the massive sightings of flying saucers now could be Nazi's I hope its really America having taken the Nazi tech, the scary thing is flying saucers are not extra terrestrial there from here the Nazis invented them look it up.

I was also going to suggest egypt have a unique flying unit for the classical era as they did have flying machines but again they did not get the chance to actively use these in war well to the best of our current knowledge anyway.

thats not to say aliens have not been here I have been abducted and seen them but flying saucers is earth tech not alien. albeit if we did include aliens in civ it would be interesting as what I was taken by was bird like and I have a strong feeling could fly they really would of had ancient flying units.

Moderator Action: Don't spam, stay on topic, and don't derail any threads.

[Becomedeath]

EDIT - Moderating myself on this one.

[spider1]

Originally Posted by Aspon

this why I don't ask for Germanys unique unit to be the flying saucer they could not produce enough of them and there entire flying saucer production got completely destroyed by allied bombing before a single one could get off the ground.

albeit I fear we may not be done with them because of the massive sightings of flying saucers now could be Nazi's I hope its really America having taken the Nazi tech, the scary thing is flying saucers are not extra terrestrial there from here the Nazis invented them look it up.

I was also going to suggest egypt have a unique flying unit for the classical era as they did have flying machines but again they did not get the chance to actively use these in war well to the best of our current knowledge anyway.

thats not to say aliens have not been here I have been abducted and seen them but flying saucers is earth tech not alien. albeit if we did include aliens in civ it would be interesting as what I was taken by was bird like and I have a strong feeling could fly they really would of had ancient flying units.

Do you have frizzy hair like that guy on the Ancient Aliens show?

And the USA built flying saucers as well. I can already see some mod'er hard at work on this now.........

[Aspon]

Originally Posted by spider1

Do you have frizzy hair like that guy on the Ancient Aliens show?

And the USA built flying saucers as well. I can already see some mod'er hard at work on this now.........

no I think ancient aliens is misleading because they try to jump to conclusions and make assertions without evidence it is a well documented fact that Nazi Germany were building flying saucers look it up whether they would have flown or worked is another question all together there flying saucer factory or under ground concentration slave labor camp producing these got destroyed due to a tip off to the allies who bombed the crap out of it, the fact is they were producing them.

[turtlefang]

I'm not sure I would claim that its a well documented fact that the Germans were working on flying saucers in WWII. Most of these claims come from a single source - a book entitled German Secret Weapons of World War II written by Rudolf Lusar in the late 1950's.

Lusar was a major in major in a German army technical unit during the war. He covered technical advances in the war - V1 and V2, Goliath mini-tank, the U XII, but also included a chapter on "Wonder Weapons" - which included a chapter on two flying saucer projects. Both of which are a little far fetched as he claimed that one of them was actually operationally tested in 1945, could climb to 39,000 ft in less than 30 seconds and achieve 2,000 kilometers per hour (significantly faster than the speed of sound). Since Lusar and the both sites were captured by the Western Allies, it seems very strange that no additional proof ever appear. And breaking the sound barrier in 1945 would have been an achievement not seen until the X-15 many years later.

The Germans did test and use a Flying Wing - which helped in the design of the ME262 and HE162. But it was always only meant to be a concept testing aircraft - never used for operational purposes.

[ShahJahanII]

Originally Posted by Rinnero

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
Germany: total military deaths: 5.5 million
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern...orld_War_II%29
Germany: total dead casualties at Eastern Front: 4.3 million

When you evaluate role of each country in war what can be more objective data to compare than this?


1 million japanese army defeated in 3 weeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...n_of_Manchuria


But enough of this. Everyone interested can just read wiki. What is important is that US's UA barely can have any connection to WWII, unlike for example German's or Russian's. By the way, in Rise of Nations civs had quite diversed and relevant to reality UAs. For example China could build citizens instantly (represents great population), Inca recieved gold when working mountains (represents their huge amount of gold and probably el dorado), Russia doubled attrition (Napoleon and Hitler had hard time fighting at their land).

Here is the list: check who is interested.
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6029147/index.html

Unfortunately it doesnt contain americans (they were added with expansion), so here is their UA:
(as far as I remember)


Power of innovation: (US is quite innovative: both technologically and in terms of human rights and so on)

- one wonder is built instantly (not sure what this represents but gameplay wise that was interesting)
- adopting new form of ruling doesnt cost anything (america likes democracy)
- first scientific tech is free, 1 scientist per university is free (obviously, US is good at techs, just as Japan)
- carriers are 20% cheaper and built faster (america has 11 of 21, and it actively uses it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_carrier)
- each infantry unit produces additional resourses (err... i believe that represents taxes that people (including militaries) pay)


I dont think that its good to copy things, but its not reason not to copy either. Egipt is almost always associated with wonders, Spain is with exploration... The bigger country the more choices it has when choosing UAs. But most of them just dont have that much uniquieness...

So, I think its ok to make UAs based on the same things as in other games.

Converted america's UA will be like:

- first wonder has +50% production modifier if no one builds it yet
- start with 15 culture
- start with 30 science (one free first tech)
- +1specialist slot in scientific buildings
- carrier production +50%
- military units are 50% maitenance

That would be unusual and "US-flavored" civ with unique playstyle and decisions.

If we are to balance it to currently existing civs (therefore lowering uniqueness), we should either have one strong (+1 specialist slot or 50% military maitenance), or several weak.


Or it can be like:

- UA: wonders have +15% production modifier if no one builds it.
- UA: military units are 50% maitenance cost, non military units are 3x maintenance cost.
- UU: Carrier: +4 move, +20% CS, can carry 5 planes.
- UB: Laboratory: 2 extra specialist slots.



We cannot say that USA had the most gross productivity because Soviet countries used other methods of evaluating such numbers.
Also, GDP is actually money, not production. Right now China is becoming a factory of the world.

I undestand that US bought a lot of lands, more than any country. But gameplay wise this ability is extremely useless because of tradition that reduces costs of acquiring tiles by 2-5 times (400->80 or 240->60 for example). Adopt tradition and forget about buying tiles.
+1 sight range doesnt give you anything real except for 1-2 additional ruins (with warrior->spearman update and map of f&%king ocean). Its just funny and you use it out of curiosity.

Well Japan's economy now is 4 times larger than Russia's...
They are currently the 3rd most powerful country in the world economically.
Back to the topic, I think the USA need a small buff, maybe something that really goes along with the trait name "Manifest Destiny".

[snarzberry]

Originally Posted by Aspon

this why I don't ask for Germanys unique unit to be the flying saucer they could not produce enough of them and there entire flying saucer production got completely destroyed by allied bombing before a single one could get off the ground.

albeit I fear we may not be done with them because of the massive sightings of flying saucers now could be Nazi's I hope its really America having taken the Nazi tech, the scary thing is flying saucers are not extra terrestrial there from here the Nazis invented them look it up.

I was also going to suggest egypt have a unique flying unit for the classical era as they did have flying machines but again they did not get the chance to actively use these in war well to the best of our current knowledge anyway.

thats not to say aliens have not been here I have been abducted and seen them but flying saucers is earth tech not alien. albeit if we did include aliens in civ it would be interesting as what I was taken by was bird like and I have a strong feeling could fly they really would of had ancient flying units.

Now I finally understand. You're taking the piss right? well played. All this time I thought your posts were coming from someone incredibly stupid and now I realise that you've been joking at everyone's expense all along. I think you overplayed your hand on this occasion though. Too obvious.