[BTS] SGOTM 14 - Fifth Element - Page 40

MeowZeDung · Nov 14, 2011, 02:27 PM

I like 1W of the Rice, or 1E of the Iron for cottage helper. 1W of rice looks stronger.

unclethrill · Nov 14, 2011, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeowZeDung

I like 1W of the Rice, or 1E of the Iron for cottage helper. 1W of rice looks stronger.

I don't have the save available or a screenshot but I vote for the spot that wil grow quickly to be able to work the cottages. We need enough excess food so it can grow to 5 or 6 in as few turns as possible otherwise it is a waste of a settler.

BLubmuz · Nov 15, 2011, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beestar

If the only thing we're waiting on is CottageHelper's location, could we vote on it? We should keep the game on track even if there are only a few of us.

Not seeing news i decided to wait.
Cottage helper will go on the coast for me. Otherwise it won't help not even itself.

Have you tried some simulation? I did and it's a disaster.

beestar · Nov 16, 2011, 07:34 AM

I favour the central (non-coastal) spot based on my calculations. Haven't had time to do a simulation - actually things are really busy outside of civ for me right now.

It's not clear to me whether UT's vote would be for coastal or not. There's some food for the central spot (floodplains that can be farmed), and it really doesn't need to do anything except work cottage tiles and build a granary.

Let's just get this show going - maybe poke pnp_dredd to see if he's around, but if you don't hear back from him in a day, you can break any ties.

If you do decide on the coastal location for Cottage Helpers, then we need to get Philly working cottages ASAP. I would set it to avoid working the mine and quarry tiles, instead favouring growing cottages. As I recall, placing the NE pigs city in the right place lets it work some cottage tiles for Philly - can't quite remember from the save.

BLubmuz · Nov 16, 2011, 08:40 AM

Beestar, even with the FP farmed that city will have a +3F until more tiles are farmed.
I can't see how it can help Philly with cottages in the short-mid term. This is why i insisted on my choosen site.
Instead, it can work the 2 cottages for Wash pretty quickly and build more structures to be of help.

For what i understood, Dredd approved my choice and probably UT too.

If anyone does not post a red light, i post my definitive PPP shortly. I think i'll go for some 15-20 turns to try to save time, unless some major event happens.

BLubmuz · Nov 17, 2011, 07:28 AM

OK, no answer, so:
New city will be on the coast, start granary and try to catch a foreign religion
Wash: after the Sistine, Tao missionaries for the cities already Confu, then market.
Reach 3 Tao Temples ASAP to build the first Cath in Philly.
Same for the Confu cities, missionaries for the Tao cities, then 3 temples to allow the Confu Cath in Boston.

I'll play in 6-8 hours from now.

A more deatiled PPP is somewhere.

unclethrill · Nov 17, 2011, 11:41 AM

Sounds like you have it well in hand. Good luck!

BLubmuz · Nov 17, 2011, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclethrill

Sounds like you have it well in hand. Good luck!

Thank you. I hope to have you back at full soon.

BLubmuz · Nov 17, 2011, 03:59 PM

Played. Turn 146, 720 AD.

Cities:
I settled on the coast and i was right: that city will need seafood to grow, still at size 2, granary completed thanks to 2 chops.
For the last one, the settler is waiting in Philly.

Techs:
Lib is 2 turns away, actually 2 turns.
Our break even is slightly below 60%, thanks to resource trades and we have enough gold in the bank to complete it in 2 turns.
I managed to have some gold trading techs, all with South or West. My idea of Compass was good, but Mansa/Shaka completed it in the same turn.

No worries, next turn it was known by almost anyone, so i traded with Lizzy. Then Monty came for Philo, no dude, too costly. A couple turns later Machinery was on the table, so i traded Philo (i was already few turns away from Lib) for it. I exchanced the WMaps with Monty for 10 gold and gathered some 100 gold in tech trades.
Optics is not researched yet, South has Engineering+Drama, Lizzy Drama. Both are NOT on the table.

So i think we must go for Nationalism and self research Astro. The difference is minimal and South can research Edu.

Cathedrals/Religion:
I revolted to Tao in the very first turn of my 2nd session, right after the trades.
Philly has its fisrt one, thanks to 2 chops. Soon Boston will build its one.

Good news: There's a Buddhist missionary on route for our land, at present in the hub, protected by our exploring archer (just a coincidence).

As i learned from Dhoomstriker time ago, i keep the missionaries in cities with already a religion for some turn before to spread. It guarantees you won't waste hammers.
Now Boston is Tao too. Next turn we can spread Wash.

We have our 2 latest cities without religion. Let's hope for some foreign one will autospread.

West completed Sh.Paya and G. is in free religion, so no diplo problems on that front.

Military:
The World is peaceful, and East is still hatred by S and W.
Our first WE is on his way for the barb city and more will follow.
Moai built.

If you're too busy, i can play one more 10-15 turns set, but in any case i uploaded the save. Turn log:

Spoiler:

No autolog, sorry i forgot to set it up.

pnp_dredd · Nov 18, 2011, 12:15 AM

Cool, I'll post a PPP up over the next few days. We'll need to play extended turnsets, so I'll plan to play 2x20 turns in close succession if everyone's OK with that.

BLubmuz · Nov 18, 2011, 05:36 AM

I'm OK for that.
If we agree to take Nation. from Lib, then we must research Optics and build a caravel ASAP to unfog that area in the West, where i suppose the WOZ is.

The problem is that by the time the caravel will reach the destination, we can have teched all what we need, so we must take a gamble. The path to MS can be the way to go, so GP after Optics, then Astro. Or viceversa if you like to build some observatory.

pnp_dredd · Nov 20, 2011, 01:53 AM

PPP

Goals:
get temples and cathedrals up.
Use war elephants to take out barb city, then settle silverfish.
Specialise cities (Seattle, a production city, does not need a library or cottages, it needs mines, farms and a forge...).
Get a caravel out to explore the fogged area far to the west, by heading clockwise past WWotE.
Workers reallocated to prioritise cottages in the LCs, then food/hammers in peripheral cities.

Liberalism (nationalism) optics astro gunpowder MT

Washington: focus on population growth. work food tiles rather than hammer tiles. Build Uni, MoM, Hermitage, Conf temple/monastary, aqueduct
NY: conf temple, conf missionaries (x3), tao temple, CH then focus on Artists
Boston: focus on food for growth and Artists, except when building wonders/cathedrals: Taj, Tao temple, Conf Academy
Philly: get those last cottages done! (why is there a worker building cottages around seattle???). conf temple, conf monastary, cathedrals, harbour as needed.
Atlanta (Moai/military city): trireme, lighthouse, elephant, elephant. HEpic when available. Galleons ASAP.
Chicago: Focus on hammers. Taoist missionaries (x3), LH then focus on Artists.
Seattle: cancel library, build LH, tao temple
San Fran: granary, LH
LA: cancel LH, begin forge

Diplo: remains friends with everyone except WWotE (vikings/india). Are we even happy to join a fake war against these guys? Trade for Drama/Engineering when they become available. Trade techs for 1/3 of their value in gold if that becomes available.

Civics: revolt to Free Speech / Pacifism at the end of the golden age.

BLubmuz · Nov 20, 2011, 03:47 AM

Seems a good plan at first sight.

Boston will need to produce the Taj in few turns, so you'll maybe wants to balance production and specialists. (IIRC we already agreed on that)
We need also to decide for the Hermitage, i think it must go in Philly.

A caravel produced in Atlanta can better go CW East, south, west, N, so we can also see some of the East lands and make our WM more valuable. Do not wait for the HE, build it ASAP.

You will have a GAge soon, so better decide what civics changes we want.
I think we can go for FP and Pacifism. I think that FM is powerful, even more than Merc. and that a GM for another GAge can be interesting, but i don't know if the detour is worth.

MeowZeDung · Nov 20, 2011, 05:37 AM

I don't think Taj in our GPFarm is a good idea. Other than for building one cathedral Boston needs to work food tiles for specialists, not hammer tiles. Hermitage will need a calculation to see which is more optimal, Washington or Philadelphia. Best case scenario we want it in Washington where there is more raw culture to be multiplied so that the wonder produces the most total culture. I understand the argument that that might put Washington too far ahead of the other LCs, but that's the whole point of GA bombs at the endgame. Also, Philly is going to be busy building Cathedrals anyway. Better to build Hermitage and Taj both in Washington imo.

Dredd's ppp has a green light from me.

BLubmuz · Nov 20, 2011, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeowZeDung

I don't think Taj in our GPFarm is a good idea. Other than for building one cathedral Boston needs to work food tiles for specialists, not hammer tiles. Hermitage will need a calculation to see which is more optimal, Washington or Philadelphia. Best case scenario we want it in Washington where there is more raw culture to be multiplied so that the wonder produces the most total culture. I understand the argument that that might put Washington too far ahead of the other LCs, but that's the whole point of GA bombs at the endgame. Also, Philly is going to be busy building Cathedrals anyway. Better to build Hermitage and Taj both in Washington imo.

Dredd's ppp has a green light from me.

Your reasoning has some good point, but we need some calculations. Surely Taj in Boston will give 2 GA points, actually 7. Not bad for sacrifice some specialist for 8-9 turns. Those GA points will be wasted in Wash. Same for the Hermitage. I think that Boston and Wash will end on a close race to be our first LC and Philly will be dead last, so the hermitage along with some culture-generating building will be more useful.

Who takes in charge the calculations? I can try if anyone else won't.

beestar · Nov 20, 2011, 09:42 AM

I'd like to investigate the save further but I don't have a lot of time for Civ in the next few days, so please don't wait for me.

In theory Hermitage should go in the highest-culture city as MZD said. If Philly is the crappiest city, it probably should be working cottages and building cathedrals - these should give a higher payoff in terms of culture than Hermitage, but I agree more detailed calculations are needed.

About exploration, one option is to build a Trireme now and upgrade it to a Caravel with 50 gold later. This usually gives us the first Caravel a few turns quicker.

Do we have any better idea of who the other AIs are? Checking out their favorite civics should give us some more information.

beestar · Nov 20, 2011, 10:49 AM

Oh, one more thing, when we can beg?

pnp_dredd · Nov 20, 2011, 04:05 PM

Taj in Boston makes sense. Boston has good production capacity when needed, and an extra 2 GA points/turn should make up for a few less turns running Artists now. That leaves a hole in Washington's build order. Should I go for MoM, and if so should I complete it or just hold it for fail gold?

Hermitage should almost certainly go in Washington. I think there are too many unknowns to do the calculation properly to work it out - any uncertainty in our completion date can throw that calculation right off, particularly the number of GArtists we can get. If someone wants to have a go then go ahead by all means, but I think there will be too many unknowns.

Sending the caravel clockwise takes us past the WWotE, who are our worst enemies and won't open borders. Is it worth declaring just so we can pass through their lands? One other AI are friendly, so there will be an important diplo hit for declaring...

thanks for the reminder about the GAge. I don't think there's any need to go into slavery at this stage? I'll need some more builds through - I haven't factored in the extra GA hammers. I'll have another look at the save this evening and refine a couple of other points. Aiming to play in 48-72 hours from this post

BLubmuz · Nov 20, 2011, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnp_dredd

Taj in Boston makes sense. Boston has good production capacity when needed, and an extra 2 GA points/turn should make up for a few less turns running Artists now. That leaves a hole in Washington's build order. Should I go for MoM, and if so should I complete it or just hold it for fail gold?

Hermitage should almost certainly go in Washington. I think there are too many unknowns to do the calculation properly to work it out - any uncertainty in our completion date can throw that calculation right off, particularly the number of GArtists we can get. If someone wants to have a go then go ahead by all means, but I think there will be too many unknowns.

Sending the caravel clockwise takes us past the WWotE, who are our worst enemies and won't open borders. Is it worth declaring just so we can pass through their lands? One other AI are friendly, so there will be an important diplo hit for declaring...

thanks for the reminder about the GAge. I don't think there's any need to go into slavery at this stage? I'll need some more builds through - I haven't factored in the extra GA hammers. I'll have another look at the save this evening and refine a couple of other points. Aiming to play in 48-72 hours from this post

You're right, there're too many uncertainities, but i'll try something.

The MoM is worth the hammers only if we launch a 2nd GAge. If we agree that FM can be a good boost to our economy (+1TR and generally more income from the TR, making each one worth as a cottage) i guess we have to go that path after Optics.

Will try some calculations here too.

Dredd, the basics

: a caravel CAN explore rival territory. No need to declare, just pass

. Building it in Atlanta will make that the shortest trip to that fogged area. We'll also acquire some knowledge of that area, making our WM more valuable. No need to beg, just sell the WM.

pnp_dredd · Nov 21, 2011, 02:53 AM

ahh THOSE caravels. I thought you meant the other ones!

I've upgraded the PPP with everyone's suggestions.

Washington runs out of cultural things to build once it completes it's University. It's left with:
Hermitage once we get Nationalism
Conf temple/monastary once it catches Confucianism (this turn)
Cathedrals which aren't available right now
Wonders. The best wonder in terms of culture/hammer is probably TGL (44 hammers/culture) closely followed by MoM (45 hammers/culture). The others aren't worth it. Note that both of these are far better than a university in terms of culture (67 hammers/culture).
An aqueduct which it will need eventually.

On that basis I propose to build MoM in Washington before we complete Taj in Boston, simply because it's a building that makes sense in Washington and we may as well. I don't like TGL because Washington is likely to pop one more great person and I really don't want a scientist. Does TGL keep producing culture once it becomes obsolete?

Quote:

About exploration, one option is to build a Trireme now and upgrade it to a Caravel with 50 gold later. This usually gives us the first Caravel a few turns quicker.

This is a good idea. Does it need to be within our borders to upgrade?

Nov 16, 2011, 08:40 AM	#785
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,457	Beestar, even with the FP farmed that city will have a +3F until more tiles are farmed. I can't see how it can help Philly with cottages in the short-mid term. This is why i insisted on my choosen site. Instead, it can work the 2 cottages for Wash pretty quickly and build more structures to be of help. For what i understood, Dredd approved my choice and probably UT too. If anyone does not post a red light, i post my definitive PPP shortly. I think i'll go for some 15-20 turns to try to save time, unless some major event happens. __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02

Nov 17, 2011, 07:28 AM	#786
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,457	OK, no answer, so: New city will be on the coast, start granary and try to catch a foreign religion Wash: after the Sistine, Tao missionaries for the cities already Confu, then market. Reach 3 Tao Temples ASAP to build the first Cath in Philly. Same for the Confu cities, missionaries for the Tao cities, then 3 temples to allow the Confu Cath in Boston. I'll play in 6-8 hours from now. A more deatiled PPP is somewhere. __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02

Nov 17, 2011, 11:41 AM	#787
unclethrill Why am I up right now? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 2,040	Sounds like you have it well in hand. Good luck! __________________ G-Minor 49 #3 Deity EQM #3 Economic Left/Right: -8.12 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.10 As left as Ghandi and as liberal as the Dalai Lama SGOTM9 - 16 : Fifth Element Member: #12 - Bronze Medal -- #14 Wooden Spoon "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch." -- Nigel Powers

Nov 17, 2011, 03:59 PM	#789
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,457	Played. Turn 146, 720 AD. Cities: I settled on the coast and i was right: that city will need seafood to grow, still at size 2, granary completed thanks to 2 chops. For the last one, the settler is waiting in Philly. Techs: Lib is 2 turns away, actually 2 turns. Our break even is slightly below 60%, thanks to resource trades and we have enough gold in the bank to complete it in 2 turns. I managed to have some gold trading techs, all with South or West. My idea of Compass was good, but Mansa/Shaka completed it in the same turn. No worries, next turn it was known by almost anyone, so i traded with Lizzy. Then Monty came for Philo, no dude, too costly. A couple turns later Machinery was on the table, so i traded Philo (i was already few turns away from Lib) for it. I exchanced the WMaps with Monty for 10 gold and gathered some 100 gold in tech trades. Optics is not researched yet, South has Engineering+Drama, Lizzy Drama. Both are NOT on the table. So i think we must go for Nationalism and self research Astro. The difference is minimal and South can research Edu. Cathedrals/Religion: I revolted to Tao in the very first turn of my 2nd session, right after the trades. Philly has its fisrt one, thanks to 2 chops. Soon Boston will build its one. Good news: There's a Buddhist missionary on route for our land, at present in the hub, protected by our exploring archer (just a coincidence). As i learned from Dhoomstriker time ago, i keep the missionaries in cities with already a religion for some turn before to spread. It guarantees you won't waste hammers. Now Boston is Tao too. Next turn we can spread Wash. We have our 2 latest cities without religion. Let's hope for some foreign one will autospread. West completed Sh.Paya and G. is in free religion, so no diplo problems on that front. Military: The World is peaceful, and East is still hatred by S and W. Our first WE is on his way for the barb city and more will follow. Moai built. If you're too busy, i can play one more 10-15 turns set, but in any case i uploaded the save. Turn log: Spoiler: Here is your Session Turn Log from 150 AD to 720 AD: Turn 121, 150 AD: The revolution has begun!!! Turn 121, 150 AD: Dorothy adopts Caste System! Turn 121, 150 AD: The Church of the Nativity has been built in a far away land! Turn 122, 175 AD: Dorothy has completed The Parthenon! Turn 123, 200 AD: Heron (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land! Turn 124, 225 AD: Seattle has been founded. Turn 124, 225 AD: Antoine Laurent Lavoisier (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land! Turn 124, 225 AD: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land! Turn 125, 250 AD: You have discovered Monarchy! Turn 125, 250 AD: You have discovered Theology! Turn 125, 250 AD: Confucianism has spread in Seattle. Turn 126, 275 AD: Dorothy's Chariot 2 (New York) (4.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (1.32) Turn 126, 275 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0% Turn 126, 275 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (17/100HP) Turn 126, 275 AD: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP) Turn 126, 275 AD: Dorothy's Chariot 2 (New York) has defeated Barbarian's Archer! Turn 126, 275 AD: You have discovered Feudalism! Turn 127, 300 AD: You have discovered Horseback Riding! Turn 127, 300 AD: San Francisco has been founded. Turn 127, 300 AD: You have discovered Paper! Turn 127, 300 AD: You have trained a Archer in Atlanta. Work has now begun on a Archer. Turn 127, 300 AD: Wicked Witch of the West adopts Vassalage! Turn 127, 300 AD: Good Witch of the West adopts Vassalage! Turn 128, 325 AD: Wicked Witch of the South adopts Vassalage! Turn 129, 350 AD: Wicked Witch of the South has completed The Colossus! Turn 130, 375 AD: Johannes Kepler (Great Scientist) has been born in Boston (Dorothy)! Turn 131, 400 AD: The revolution has begun!!! Turn 131, 400 AD: Dorothy converts to Taoism! Turn 131, 400 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established. Turn 131, 400 AD: Good Witch of the South adopts Bureaucracy! Turn 132, 425 AD: You have trained a Settler in New York. Work has now begun on a Work Boat. Turn 132, 425 AD: Socrates (Great Scientist) has been born in Gao (Good Witch of the South)! Turn 132, 425 AD: Good Witch of the West has completed Shwedagon Paya! Turn 133, 450 AD: The borders of Philadelphia have expanded! Turn 133, 450 AD: Enrico Fermi (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land! Turn 134, 475 AD: You have discovered Compass! Turn 134, 475 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in New York. Work has now begun on a Confucian Monastery. Turn 134, 475 AD: You have constructed a Courthouse in Atlanta. Work has now begun on a Archer. Turn 134, 475 AD: The borders of Seattle have expanded! Turn 135, 500 AD: Los Angeles has been founded. Turn 135, 500 AD: Dorothy has completed The Sistine Chapel! Turn 135, 500 AD: You have trained a Archer in Atlanta. Work has now begun on Moai Statues. Turn 136, 520 AD: You have discovered Metal Casting! Turn 136, 520 AD: The borders of San Francisco have expanded! Turn 136, 520 AD: Good Witch of the North adopts Bureaucracy! Turn 136, 520 AD: Parthian (Barbarian) has been captured by the Viking Empire!!! Turn 137, 540 AD: You have discovered Education! Turn 137, 540 AD: Wicked Witch of the North adopts Bureaucracy! Turn 137, 540 AD: Wicked Witch of the North adopts Theocracy! Turn 138, 560 AD: The borders of Los Angeles have expanded! Turn 138, 560 AD: Wicked Witch of the West adopts Bureaucracy! Turn 138, 560 AD: Good Witch of the West adopts Bureaucracy! Turn 138, 560 AD: Good Witch of the West adopts Free Religion! Turn 139, 580 AD: You have constructed Moai Statues in Atlanta. Work has now begun on a Stable. Turn 139, 580 AD: You have constructed a Taoist Temple in Chicago. Work has now begun on a Work Boat. Turn 139, 580 AD: Leaders of Judaism have a vision of uniting all Jewish faithful under the The Apostolic Palace. Turn 139, 580 AD: Wicked Witch of the South has completed The Apostolic Palace! Turn 142, 640 AD: You have discovered Machinery! Turn 142, 640 AD: You have constructed a Stable in Atlanta. Work has now begun on a War Elephant. Turn 143, 660 AD: Nicolaus Copernicus (Great Scientist) has been born in Karakorum (Wicked Witch of the North)! Turn 144, 680 AD: New York has grown to size 10. Turn 144, 680 AD: Good Witch of the East has 60 gold available for trade. Turn 144, 680 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Los Angeles. Turn 144, 680 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Philadelphia. Turn 144, 680 AD: Chicago will grow to size 11 on the next turn. Turn 144, 680 AD: Los Angeles will grow to size 2 on the next turn. Turn 144, 680 AD: Washington celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!! Turn 144, 680 AD: Harappan (Barbarian) has been captured by the Zulu Empire!!! Turn 145, 700 AD: Chicago has grown to size 11. Turn 145, 700 AD: Wicked Witch of the South has 100 gold available for trade. Turn 145, 700 AD: The borders of Chicago are about to expand. Turn 145, 700 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Atlanta. Turn 145, 700 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Philadelphia. Turn 145, 700 AD: Boston will grow to size 12 on the next turn. Turn 145, 700 AD: Los Angeles will grow to size 2 on the next turn. Turn 145, 700 AD: Washington celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!! Turn 145, 700 AD: You have constructed a Taoist Pagoda in Philadelphia. Work has now begun on a University. Turn 145, 700 AD: You have trained a War Elephant in Atlanta. Work has now begun on a War Elephant. Turn 145, 700 AD: The borders of Chicago have expanded! Turn 146, 720 AD: Boston has grown to size 12. Turn 146, 720 AD: Los Angeles has grown to size 2. Turn 146, 720 AD: Good Witch of the East has 7 gold per turn available for trade. Turn 146, 720 AD: The borders of Boston are about to expand. Turn 146, 720 AD: New York will grow to size 11 on the next turn. Turn 146, 720 AD: Seattle will grow to size 5 on the next turn. Turn 146, 720 AD: Taoism has spread in Boston. No autolog, sorry i forgot to set it up. __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02

Nov 18, 2011, 05:36 AM	#791
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,457	I'm OK for that. If we agree to take Nation. from Lib, then we must research Optics and build a caravel ASAP to unfog that area in the West, where i suppose the WOZ is. The problem is that by the time the caravel will reach the destination, we can have teched all what we need, so we must take a gamble. The path to MS can be the way to go, so GP after Optics, then Astro. Or viceversa if you like to build some observatory. __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02

Nov 14, 2011, 02:27 PM	#781
MeowZeDung Prince Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 338	I like 1W of the Rice, or 1E of the Iron for cottage helper. 1W of rice looks stronger.

Nov 16, 2011, 07:34 AM	#784
beestar subdeity Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Pacific Standard Time Posts: 1,553	I favour the central (non-coastal) spot based on my calculations. Haven't had time to do a simulation - actually things are really busy outside of civ for me right now. It's not clear to me whether UT's vote would be for coastal or not. There's some food for the central spot (floodplains that can be farmed), and it really doesn't need to do anything except work cottage tiles and build a granary. Let's just get this show going - maybe poke pnp_dredd to see if he's around, but if you don't hear back from him in a day, you can break any ties. If you do decide on the coastal location for Cottage Helpers, then we need to get Philly working cottages ASAP. I would set it to avoid working the mine and quarry tiles, instead favouring growing cottages. As I recall, placing the NE pigs city in the right place lets it work some cottage tiles for Philly - can't quite remember from the save.

Nov 18, 2011, 12:15 AM	#790
pnp_dredd civ junkie Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 892	Cool, I'll post a PPP up over the next few days. We'll need to play extended turnsets, so I'll plan to play 2x20 turns in close succession if everyone's OK with that.

Nov 20, 2011, 01:53 AM	#792
pnp_dredd civ junkie Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 892	PPP Goals: get temples and cathedrals up. Use war elephants to take out barb city, then settle silverfish. Specialise cities (Seattle, a production city, does not need a library or cottages, it needs mines, farms and a forge...). Get a caravel out to explore the fogged area far to the west, by heading clockwise past WWotE. Workers reallocated to prioritise cottages in the LCs, then food/hammers in peripheral cities. Liberalism (nationalism) optics astro gunpowder MT Washington: focus on population growth. work food tiles rather than hammer tiles. Build Uni, MoM, Hermitage, Conf temple/monastary, aqueduct NY: conf temple, conf missionaries (x3), tao temple, CH then focus on Artists Boston: focus on food for growth and Artists, except when building wonders/cathedrals: Taj, Tao temple, Conf Academy Philly: get those last cottages done! (why is there a worker building cottages around seattle???). conf temple, conf monastary, cathedrals, harbour as needed. Atlanta (Moai/military city): trireme, lighthouse, elephant, elephant. HEpic when available. Galleons ASAP. Chicago: Focus on hammers. Taoist missionaries (x3), LH then focus on Artists. Seattle: cancel library, build LH, tao temple San Fran: granary, LH LA: cancel LH, begin forge Diplo: remains friends with everyone except WWotE (vikings/india). Are we even happy to join a fake war against these guys? Trade for Drama/Engineering when they become available. Trade techs for 1/3 of their value in gold if that becomes available. Civics: revolt to Free Speech / Pacifism at the end of the golden age. Last edited by pnp_dredd; Nov 21, 2011 at 03:01 AM.

Nov 20, 2011, 03:47 AM	#793
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,457	Seems a good plan at first sight. Boston will need to produce the Taj in few turns, so you'll maybe wants to balance production and specialists. (IIRC we already agreed on that) We need also to decide for the Hermitage, i think it must go in Philly. A caravel produced in Atlanta can better go CW East, south, west, N, so we can also see some of the East lands and make our WM more valuable. Do not wait for the HE, build it ASAP. You will have a GAge soon, so better decide what civics changes we want. I think we can go for FP and Pacifism. I think that FM is powerful, even more than Merc. and that a GM for another GAge can be interesting, but i don't know if the detour is worth. __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02

Nov 20, 2011, 05:37 AM	#794
MeowZeDung Prince Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 338	I don't think Taj in our GPFarm is a good idea. Other than for building one cathedral Boston needs to work food tiles for specialists, not hammer tiles. Hermitage will need a calculation to see which is more optimal, Washington or Philadelphia. Best case scenario we want it in Washington where there is more raw culture to be multiplied so that the wonder produces the most total culture. I understand the argument that that might put Washington too far ahead of the other LCs, but that's the whole point of GA bombs at the endgame. Also, Philly is going to be busy building Cathedrals anyway. Better to build Hermitage and Taj both in Washington imo. Dredd's ppp has a green light from me. Last edited by MeowZeDung; Nov 20, 2011 at 05:41 AM.

Nov 20, 2011, 09:42 AM	#796
beestar subdeity Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Pacific Standard Time Posts: 1,553	I'd like to investigate the save further but I don't have a lot of time for Civ in the next few days, so please don't wait for me. In theory Hermitage should go in the highest-culture city as MZD said. If Philly is the crappiest city, it probably should be working cottages and building cathedrals - these should give a higher payoff in terms of culture than Hermitage, but I agree more detailed calculations are needed. About exploration, one option is to build a Trireme now and upgrade it to a Caravel with 50 gold later. This usually gives us the first Caravel a few turns quicker. Do we have any better idea of who the other AIs are? Checking out their favorite civics should give us some more information.

Nov 20, 2011, 10:49 AM	#797
beestar subdeity Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Pacific Standard Time Posts: 1,553	Oh, one more thing, when we can beg?

Nov 20, 2011, 04:05 PM	#798
pnp_dredd civ junkie Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 892	Taj in Boston makes sense. Boston has good production capacity when needed, and an extra 2 GA points/turn should make up for a few less turns running Artists now. That leaves a hole in Washington's build order. Should I go for MoM, and if so should I complete it or just hold it for fail gold? Hermitage should almost certainly go in Washington. I think there are too many unknowns to do the calculation properly to work it out - any uncertainty in our completion date can throw that calculation right off, particularly the number of GArtists we can get. If someone wants to have a go then go ahead by all means, but I think there will be too many unknowns. Sending the caravel clockwise takes us past the WWotE, who are our worst enemies and won't open borders. Is it worth declaring just so we can pass through their lands? One other AI are friendly, so there will be an important diplo hit for declaring... thanks for the reminder about the GAge. I don't think there's any need to go into slavery at this stage? I'll need some more builds through - I haven't factored in the extra GA hammers. I'll have another look at the save this evening and refine a couple of other points. Aiming to play in 48-72 hours from this post

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