[BTS] SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by bcool

We might want to trade aesthetics to the eastern witches next turn for their spare gold (they will be 1 turn from finishing it, so the trade will be very small and 95%? chance of no diplomatic consequences)

I thought of trading Aesthetics with Eastern Witches, but two reason refrained to do so,
diplo hit (the obvious) and the why are they possibly beelining the "Music route" via Aesthetics.
Given how fast they are about to finish that tech, I might hold it to maximize chances for Music. Sometimes, I feel their tech pace is as fast as a quick speed emperor game.

If we are going to Music route, we must do it swiftly, they're all monster tech.

[Tachywaxon]

Hey bcool, you initially wanted to trade CoL for Monotheism and Construction, but along this strategic path, what did you have in mind to get Calendar. We cannot trade with fake Shaka/Mansa and fake Ragnar/Asoka, then possibilities were limited to get Calendar.

[bcool]

Even if they are beelining music, the 40-50 gold they would give us would let us run the tech slider at close to 100% for 1 turn. That will shave off significant time for us to tech music. I think it is worth it. We have vision on their research so we should be able to adjust our tech if the race is close.

I've personally never gotten a diplo hit for small value trades. So a 40-50 gold trade for 1 turn of research on aesthetics seems highly highly likely not to trigger a diplo consequence.

[bcool]

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

Hey bcool, you initially wanted to trade CoL for Monotheism and Construction, but along this strategic path, what did you have in mind to get Calendar. We cannot trade with fake Shaka/Mansa and fake Ragnar/Asoka, then possibilities were limited to get Calendar.

I wanted to trade the northern witches CoL for monotheism and construction but I think the northern witches traded for CoL so that trade can't happen anymore.

And I never suggested trading CoL to anyone else

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by bcool

Even if they are beelining music, the 40-50 gold they would give us would let us run the tech slider at close to 100% for 1 turn. That will shave off significant time for us to tech music. I think it is worth it. We have vision on their research so we should be able to adjust our tech if the race is close.

I've personally never gotten a diplo hit for small value trades. So a 40-50 gold trade for 1 turn of research on aesthetics seems highly highly likely not to trigger a diplo consequence.

Well, what I meant was slightly different; before the tweaks, I wished to trade with Eastern Witches, but at two turns from getting the tech, I was highly doubtful to get away from this.

Okay, I don't mind to trade away Aesthetics for the one whose wallet is the biggest in the next turn. So I agree. You are right how fast we can get a tech by step of 100% slider. For example, if we had plenty of gold, getting Currency at three turns was possible with very small tweaks.

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by bcool

I wanted to trade the northern witches CoL for monotheism and construction but I think the northern witches traded for CoL so that trade can't happen anymore.

And I never suggested trading CoL to anyone else

First, do you like the idea of brokering Calendar and self-teched Currency for Monotheism and Construction or you see it a failure trade or ad-hoc trade?

As for me, I see it in the good light, we are trading away a tech we didn't tech by ourselves, thus (tech brokering).

And at one moment or another, they will get it through trade, better if we are the beneficiary of the trade.

[bcool]

Tachy did you miss this post?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...postcount=2036

reproduced here

Okay now that I have looked at the save, I think your plan to finish currency and trade it along with calendar for construction and monotheism is the best plan. I didn't see any way to improve your get-currency-this-turn tweaks.

Looks good to me. And Tachy mentioned in an email that she could beg for gold and that might make the difference if the trade is close as well once we have currency.

We might want to trade aesthetics to the eastern witches next turn for their spare gold (they will be 1 turn from finishing it, so the trade will be very small and 95%? chance of no diplomatic consequences)

We might as well cancel our resource gifts (pigs and crabs) to the eastern witches (we are not going to get open borders with them anytime soon I don't think and there is no need to give them more healthy resources I don't think)

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by bcool

Tachy did you miss this post?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...postcount=2036

reproduced here

I saw it and understood its content.

But my question was tailored implicitly with the word "if it were like".
At first, you wanted CoL for Construction and Monotheism with northern witches...but I wondered then where you can trade calendar. Steal?

That post is based of the save, not what wished theorically before play.
I remember you didn't like getting calendar.

You like my plan now, but there were supposedly a previous plan you liked better and I wish to know why.

[bcool]

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

I saw it and understood its content.

But my question was tailored implicitly with the word "if it were like".
At first, you wanted CoL for Construction and Monotheism with northern witches...but I wondered then where you can trade calendar. Steal?

That post is based of the save, not what wished theorically before play.
I remember you didn't like getting calendar.

You like my plan now, but there were supposedly a previous plan you liked better and I wish to know why.

The original plan was to trade currency for calendar and CoL of construction and monotheism from the northern witches.

But the northern witches picked up CoL in trade.

If the northern witches were not willing to trade calendar I had a back up plan of stealing calendar

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by bcool

The original plan was to trade currency for calendar and CoL of construction and monotheism from the northern witches.

But the northern witches picked up CoL in trade.

If the northern witches were not willing to trade calendar I had a back up plan of stealing calendar

Okay then I understand now. Anyways, this new method still will work, I am sure with the beggings in addition. Then this matches rather similarly to the original plan with the twist we know for sure we won't use EP into calendar. Also meaning, no waiting for calendar resources use.

To update the news, we have calendar from a trade, so the number in WFYABTA is one mark higher. I think it is 2 (or more) (CoL and Calendar) and minor techs I don't remember well. If someone can update that info for me, I will be grateful. Because if we trade higher than 5 techs, then we can check the some AI's personalities. I think WFYABTA reason overwrites "We don't like you just enough". I think it is...hmm.

The only good thing with stealing plan I think is to maintain WFYABTA limit stable.
I think we may use the EP in other technologies because we have calendar now.

[mabraham]

I've now lost track of whatever is going on. There's been too much repetition and clarification based upon conditional plans I'm not even sure what turn Tachy is on, or what techs we have acquired... Is someone able to summarise, please?

When the active player pauses for comment in the next phase of the game, I think a screenshot of the tech trading status will be necessary to keep people on top of the current position. There are far too many variables of which AIs research and trade which techs while we research, steal and trade which techs at what times for us to construct robust plans. Accordingly, if the active player can't implement the ideas on the PPP without consultation, we need hard information upon which to base contributions

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Just verified this in the Espionage article. Here's the religious contribution to the espionage cost modifier:

ReligionTypes eReligion = getStateReligion();
if (NO_RELIGION != eReligion)
{
int iReligionModifier = 0;

// City has Your State Religion
if (pCity->isHasReligion(eReligion))
{
if (GET_PLAYER(eTargetPlayer).getStateReligion() != eReligion)
{
iReligionModifier += GC.getDefineINT("ESPIONAGE_CITY_RELIGION_STATE_MOD ");
}

if (hasHolyCity(eReligion))
{
iReligionModifier += GC.getDefineINT("ESPIONAGE_CITY_HOLY_CITY_MOD");;
}
}

iModifier *= 100 + iReligionModifier;
iModifier /= 100;

}

You are all posting too fast for me. Good night ...

Good luck with the rest of your turn set, Tachy!

Sun Tzu Wu

OK, so to get the espionage modifiers we have to have a state religion that is present in the target city. If their state religion is different, we get 15% bonus. If we have the holy city of our state religion, then we get 25% bonus. These add together.

So for practical purposes in this game, once we have Taoism state religion and it is present in the target city, we will get 40% bonus.

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by mabraham

I've now lost track of whatever is going on. There's been too much repetition and clarification based upon conditional plans I'm not even sure what turn Tachy is on, or what techs we have acquired... Is someone able to summarise, please?

When the active player pauses for comment in the next phase of the game, I think a screenshot of the tech trading status will be necessary to keep people on top of the current position. There are far too many variables of which AIs research and trade which techs while we research, steal and trade which techs at what times for us to construct robust plans. Accordingly, if the active player can't implement the ideas on the PPP without consultation, we need hard information upon which to base contributions

Okay,
We acquired (T110) Calendar. Witches of the North have CoL now.
We are at the beginning of T111(latest save uploaded) and we had to tweak to gain Currency for T112.
On T112, we (bcool and I) intend to trade with Witches of the East Calendar tech plus the remaining beakers of Currency tech they are researching right now. If this won't work, gold beggings will make the difference, but I doubt it will be needed.
Putting away that tech trade on T112, there are few changes in my PPP, and bcool did give to me permission to continue as planned (on Gmail). Anyways, that difference in tech won't change much than the tech trade intended by bcool a long/short? time ago.

I intent to play tonight. I can't provide pictures right now, but soon yes.
I must finish my turn-set at all cost to shift to the next player. Time is getting tighter.

Sorry for the disturbances I may cause.
If there are more hazy details, please ask me.

And IIRC, you unknowingly agreed the tech trade (saying something like "sounds good"), so there is no more trouble than that.

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

Okay,
We acquired (T110) Calendar. Witches of the North have CoL now.
We are at the beginning of T111(latest save uploaded) and we had to tweak to gain Currency for T112.

Great. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

On T112, we (bcool and I) intend to trade with Witches of the East Calendar tech plus the remaining beakers of Currency tech they are researching right now.

.... we trade Calendar plus part of Currency for their Mono + Construction? (Sigh, this is the kind of ambiguity that makes the thread hard to follow.) If so, that's great, if only to clear the air.

Presumably we are about to steal Metal Casting? And tech Music since the GArtist for the GA is possible?

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

If this won't work, gold beggings will make the difference, but I doubt it will be needed.
Putting away that tech trade on T112, there are few changes in my PPP, and bcool did give to me permission to continue as planned (on Gmail). Anyways, that difference in tech won't change much than the tech trade intended by bcool a long/short? time ago.

I intent to play tonight. I can't provide pictures right now, but soon yes.
I must finish my turn-set at all cost to shift to the next player. Time is getting tighter.

Sorry for the disturbances I may cause.
If there are more hazy details, please ask me.

And IIRC, you unknowingly agreed the tech trade (saying something like "sounds good"), so there is no more trouble than that.

When I knowingly say "sounds good" then I agree with the proposition :-)

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by mabraham

Presumably we are about to steal Metal Casting? And tech Music since the GArtist for the GA is possible?

Exact on both instances. I will precise later the turn Bond landed in Trojan Horse and more meticulous details for stealing MC.

Music seems possible as AI aren't interested in Literature route. Nonetheless, I will verify this when the moment comes and share the details.

Please trust in me.

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

Exact on both instances. I will precise later the turn Bond landed in Trojan Horse and more meticulous details for stealing MC.

Great.

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

Music seems possible as AI aren't interested in Literature route. Nonetheless, I will verify this when the moment comes and share the details.

Please trust in me.

We do trust you - it's just sometimes hard to follow the thread with different peoples' communication styles

[Tachywaxon]

Hello folks. I will intent to play in 30 minutes. But before I may look into the situation of the game a bit.

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by shulec

My recommended begging guidelines for first begs. Later begging can be more aggressive.

1. Beg for less than 100 gold.
2. Don't beg for less than 50 gold.
3. Beg for 10 or 20 less gold than the AI has. (Beg for 50 if they have 60, beg for 90 if they have 110.
4. If someone has bananas, beg for them instead of gold if we can't trade for them.
5. Don't beg for GPT.
6. Don't beg for techs.
7. Don't make demands (i.e. don't beg from anyone who is not pleased or friendly.)

I basically pulled these guidelines out of the air from my past experiences. I always beg as soon I get currency, or when someone who is pleased with me gets it. I recommend any other beggers chime in.

Make a reminder noting what leader in 25 turns to consider begging again whether you are granted the beg or turned down. (Alt-M)

That is something I completely missed to input in my PPP.

We have two pleased AI's. I will respect these rules. Say green fire if okay (technically I know bcool is agreeing to this).

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Eiffel, Fritz and Ramanujan are the three workers where changes weren't included in PPP. These corrections by bcool are going to be applied (I verified it and automatically thought they are strong).

Only Stevenson in Silver wasn't verified and corrected. I think bcool mentioned something about a missing forest in the real game, but I didn't localize the post in question.
Slight changes are necessary after mining and roading silver plot and those changes will be decided according to what I deem the best micro.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

James Bond was moved into Trojan Horse city at T111. After the five turns of stationary waiting, I will use the missionary to spread taoism at T116 if the holy didn't an automatic spread for us.

T111: Spy moved. Sorry.
T112: 10 % starionary discount.
T113: 20 % starionary discount.
T114: 30 % starionary discount.
T115: 40 % starionary discount. GLib completed.
T116: 50 % starionary discount. Switch to Taoism first I guess and steal if possible under Anarchy.

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After Currency completion, if nobody has Literature, I go for Music in a aggressive way because I saw how fast they teched. Nonetheless, the tweaks won't affect main cities and in addition this time Isengard (we need to fend ourselves asap, but mabraham suggested fake Mansa/Shaka will go after fake Monty/Gandhi) and possibly Silver city if the galley counts that much. Where will the galley go? This doesn't belong to my turn-set but I suppose towards Isengard, which makes a Suez canal.

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The boat initially in North Witch territory will aggressively create a trade route towards Witches of the East. That way, I think we will be able to trade to Witches of the South.

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In Wizard of Oz story, I don't really well story as I am not an american nor and english native, but does wizard of Oz's lands have a higher density of mountains?

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These are final additions to my PPP. Agreeing or not? If no response in 15 minutes (during which I will try to refine my tweaks if possible...), I play. We have to speed up...despite we clearly know Kaitzilla won't be able to prepare anything at this hour.

[bcool]

I wouldn't build research for music race unless you know an AI has literature. The side city builds are important.

this is nothing like the wizard of oz, I don't think we can infer anything from the story itself. However the mountains do not show up in a wheel map, so the mountains were added by the mapmaker that is why we think it is likely hiding the wizard.

we probably don't want to steal techs during anarchy since we don't have a trade route bonus during anarchy. Plus we probably will want to switch to taoism as well.

If possible finish builds on T115, so we can move spies, galleys etc before the probably 2 turns of anarchy.

The boat initially in North Witch territory will aggressively create a trade route towards Witches of the East. That way, I think we will be able to trade to Witches of the South.

I assume the boat is headed to the witches of the west not the east...

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by bcool

I wouldn't build research for music race unless you know an AI has literature. The side city builds are important.

Okay, let's make a compromise. The moment I observe an AI starting teching Literature or Drama. I use the weakest cities to help my research rate. I know research isn't the best build as one beaker roughly does not equal a hammer.
But I assure you, the AI techs so fast. I won't play chancy. Still, I didn't embrace the power of gold trading and begging, so it may change during actual playing.

we probably don't want to steal techs during anarchy since we don't have a trade route bonus during anarchy. Plus we probably will want to switch to taoism as well.

That is what I wanted to hear; we lose some bonus. No steal during Anarchy for sure.

If possible finish builds on T115, so we can move spies, galleys etc before the probably 2 turns of anarchy.

I get confused. You wanted me to move Bond asap. The "spies" in question are those helping Bond if he fails, right?
Anyways, these actions do not belong to my turn-set, so let's postpone the decisions in this path. I likely end my turn-set with GLib.

I assume the boat is headed to the witches of the west not the east...

Again" Why do I always make stupid assertions when I am thinking the contrary. Nothing against bcool though.

Thanks to put me in the right path. Oops the color is bad...