[BTS] SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Looking into the Assets/XML/Units/UnitInfos.xml of BtS 3.19 for ENGINEER, you will find the iBaseHurry and iHurryMultiplier values near the bottom of the ENGINEER unit structure:

<iBaseHurry>500</iBaseHurry>
<iHurryMultiplier>20</iHurryMultiplier>

mabrahams link to the thread where this was described was six years old, so I just wanted to be sure that the values didn't change in BtS or any of the patches of any variant of Civ IV.

Bottom line is we should be able to rely on the formula as previously given:

Great Engineer Rush Hammers = 500 + 20 x <City Population>.

A Great Engineer can rush The United Nations (1000H) in a city of Population 25 outright. It may be possible to grow one of our cities to Population 25 before we complete Mass Media.

Alternatively, a Population 24 city could Great Engineer rush 500 + 20 x 24 = 980 Hammers and if that city has 20 Hpt or more, it can complete TUN in 1t.

Or, a Population 23 city could Great Engineer rush 500 + 20 x 23 = 960 Hammers and if that city has 40 Hpt or more, it can complete TUN in 1t. The 40 Hpt would be the tough requirement to achieve with our candidate cities and technologies; probably not possible.

Do we have any city we can grow to population 23-24 by MM that isn't dedicated to a conflicting role? Chopping a few nearby Forests may reduce the population needed. Whipping is an option that bcool suggested, but that would require at least 2t and has lower hammer per population conversions that apply for all Wonders.

Sun Tzu Wu

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I believe the detailed PPP has the right level of detail for this stage of the game. I'm certainly willing to add more detail, but doubt it would help me play the turn set any better.

The Worker actions may not be the best choices. That might be an area that may require the most change.

It would be wonderful if you can state your desired changes in such a way that I could copy and paste it. That would help me keep to the 3-4 day schedule.

If possible, I would like to start playing in 12-16 hours from now. The detailed PPP has been available for nearly two hours, so that makes it about 14-18 hours from when the detailed PPP was posted. I hope everyone is happy with this proposed schedule.

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

EDIT: Astronomy is listed first, because it allows Observatories which bring in +25% Research at a modest cost of 150H compared to Universities at 200H. However, since Dorthy is Philosophical, Universities can be built at +100% Hammers making them cheaper than Observatories for those cities that do not have Universities. However, we must keep our war plans in mind and build Barracks in all cities expected to produce military units.

I think an observatory makes sense only in Washington and only if we get evidence we need a lot more tech.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Academic Question: How large must a city be to leverage a Great Engineer rush to complete The United Nations in a single turn, including Hammers that city can muster yet that turn? Assume Hill Mines and no Railroad for primary Hammer sources.

Population 24. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...postcount=2595

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Any city without a Courthouse will build one sooner rather than later, even the Capital. In my opinion, they should have been built as soon as possible after Code of Laws in all cities, starting with the ones furthest from the Capital. They reduce city maintenance -50% regardless of any slider setting. Courthouses will probably not be considered for cities with not enough Hammers to build them in 20t or less. In such cases, even building Wealth would be better.

Markets will be considered in high commerce cities and those cities we expect will support a significant number (3 or more) of Merchants. However, like Courthouses, only cities that can build them in 25t or less will be seriously consuidered.

I still do not think any courthouse or market stands up to a cost-benefit analysis unless we get evidence that we need a lot of tech. If MM plus perhaps one of Nat or Gunpowder is it, then after that point our economy becomes irrelevant. Missionaries for conversion and barracks and units for wars are much more pressing needs.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Washington will complete Oxford University in 3t. After that it will focus on growing its population while working all grassland cottages. Some plains cottages and grassland hill cottages (if any) will be considered if it permits reasonably fast growth (.i.e +5 Fpt or better).

I think our plains cottage is a better tile to work than a fresh water lake. We need to build two more plains cottages as a matter of urgency when workers finish jobs around Gems and Stone Cities.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

We probably want Globe Theatre in GP Farm before the war, but with its low Hammer rate and dedication to generating Great Scientists at least until t167, it will build very slowly until then. So, GP Farm must start building Theatre immediately, compleing it in 17t; Five other cities must also complete Theatre as well before Globe Theartre can begin, so I've placed five additional Threatre builds in cities with significant Hammers, so they are completed by the end of the turn set or at least nearly complete, so there's no rush to complete them later; these Theatre builds can be delayed a bit to build something more important.

I know I've been talking about the Globe Theatre, but bcool has rightly pointed out that it is not world conquest we are doing. I'm happy to go along with a GT plan for GPfarm, in part because I like the theatre builds that will ensure we stay happy during wars. If we are not teching we are likely to want to run the culture slider at some level so that we get border pops in captured cities to get more food tiles to keep the population that we capture.

That said, I think theatres take low priority in non-GPfarm cities until T160 or so.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

City Growth:

All cities will focus on growth yet still work higher commerce plots when feasible, until they reach happiness cap or can support their tasks most efficiently. Growth goal shall be +5 Fpt or higher without significant loss of commerce.

Great Wonders:

Mausoleum of Maussollos (never obsolete; +50% Golden Age length; we can build it before our planned Golden Age and extend it 4t; 11t ETA)

I can maybe see this being worthwhile in terms of raw hammers. The other world wonders look like distractions to me.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

City Build Queues and Worker Tasks:

Washington:

Oxford University (3t)
Taoist Monastery (2t; 3 Mines -> 2 Grassland + 1 Plains Cottage)
Taoist Temple (4t; +2 Hpt; +1 Happiness)
Theatre (3t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)
Courthouse (+2.5 Wpt; +2 Ept; Spy specialist option)

Stone City (Switch a citizen to Washington's cottage; after +3P, run Spy specialist + Merchant):

Taoist Temple (4t; t145 Spy specialist +4 Bpt +4 Ept)
Taoist Missionary (2-4t)
Theatre (4t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)
Market (12t; should be able to support 3-4 Merchants)

I don't think market is a good idea.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Worker builds Workshop 2-N (6t); builds Workshop 1-W (6t).
Worker moves to 2-SE of Phant City's Iron (1t); build Iron Mine (6t); build G Farm 1-NE (5t).

I think Washington's cottages and Stone's workshops are a higher priority than moving cross-country to improve tiles for a small city that aren't going to be worked very soon.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Gems City (will be running 0, 0, 2, 3, 6, ... Scientists -> 1 GS through t156):

Taoist Missionary (2t)
Taoist Missionary (4t)
Theatre (4-5t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)
Market (great capacity for running 6-8 Merchants after generating 2 GSs)

Worker completes Jungle Chop (2t); build Workshop (6t); build Road (2t).

We do not need a road here. We need two more cottages in Washington, then incense needs improvement.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

GP Farm (running 8, ... Scientists -> 4 GS through t166):

Theatre (17t; required to build Globe Theatre)

Taoist Missionary: Convert south witches using Horse Archer being built as escort.

South looks like being our opponents in the UN vote (largest population at the moment), so I think we want to avoid converting them so that they do not acquire any shared war or shared religion benefits from Taoism (or defy AP resolutions!).

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Silver City (will be running 3 - 4t, 4 - 4t, 6, ... Scientists -> 1 GS through t163):

Taoist Temple (12t)

Worker builds Farm (5t); builds Farm 1-SE (5t) if Civil Service, otherwise Roads 1-SW, 2-S, 1-SE of Silver City.

I think one more farm is enough for Silver City. That allows it to run seven specialists, or all the rest of the land tiles as workshops.

I also think random roads are not appropriate. Silver City needs a road 1SW of rice in order to get any military units we build later to the front. There is no hurry for this road on that tile. Other roads are wasted on tiles to which we will never come back.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Isengard:

Horse Archer (2t)
Taoist Temple (3t)
Library (4t)
Theatre (3t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)
University (5t)

90 hammers on a library in a city producing 10 commerce gives about 20 turns of 2 beakers back if we don't need large tech, and still not very much if we do need large tech. A university is about the same. We built this city to build units. We should build elephants and longbows for the moment, then trebs or knights when possible.

Temple and theatre first are OK, however.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Culture Bridge:

Caravel (4t)
Theatre (8t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)
Galley (8t; do _not_ complete before we get Astronomy)

Marble City:

Galley (24t)

Phants City (Adds Merchants + Spy specialists when Population can support them):

Courthouse (15-20t)

Much prefer theatre (to free up Isengard) or galley.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Worker build G Mine (4t); build Road (2t); move to 1-E of GP Farm (1t); build Road (2t); move 2-NW (1t).

This road will get some use, but I think we should improve all the Phants tiles first.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Sheep City (In t145, add new citizen to Gem City's Grassland Hill Mine):

Courthouse (15-18t)

Similarly, I much prefer theatre or galley.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Worker builds Workshop (4t); builds Workshop 1-E (6t)
Worker moves onto Copper Hill (1t); build Workshop 1-NW (6t); move 1-S of Isengard (1t); build Workshop (6t).

Fur City (At Pop 8, add 3 Merchants + Spy specialist):

Galley (24t)

Worker completes Fur Camp (4t); moves to Ice Hill Silver (1t); Silver Mine (6t)
Ramanujan builds Road 1-SW on RS Tundra (3t); Road 1-SE on Ice (4t); Move SE on RS P Silk (1t); Build Road (2t); Axeman escort protects Worker.
Archer sits tight watching for 10t.

Cimmerian (Run Artist till border pop):

Walls (7t)
Castle (14t, assuming we can steal Engineering)
Courthouse (~30t)

Worker completes Rice Farm (2t); Build Road (2t); Move 2-SE on GF; Build Road (2t); Build Pig Pasture (4t)

Exploring Units:

Our goal shall be having at most 5, 7 or 9 units out of border for exploration, so we incur no, +1, or +2 Wpt support costs for exceeding this limit.

The Work Boat will be moved south to explore Barbarian city that lies south of its position.

The Chariot will be moved to attempt shulec's teleport idea; more details on how to perform this are needed as well some test that it will work as expected.

The southern Axeman will move west to explore the SE and S part of the SW unrevealed area.

The War Elephant shall move SE along the coast and then explore the big unrevealed area in the SE corner of the map.

Horse Archer built in 2t will escort Taoist Missionaries to South Witches.

Caravel being built in 4t will explore unrevealed area in the southeast corner of the map.

Spy on Pig: explores unrevealed area in SE corner of Map.

Galley near Gems City: move along coast in our culture NE, cross over to North witch area; move SW to Barbarian city.

Great Spy moves to infiltrate North Witches.

Espionage:

Spy in Boston waits there for infiltration of North Witches; Will steal Engineering if the opportunity arises.

Spy near Trojan Horse will be moved there and wait; possibly steal Civil Service after waiting there 5t.

Lost Spies will be replaced ASAP in the nearest Hammer city to the city where the Spy will do his Espionage work.

Game Changing Situations:

Unless it is an Emergency, I will use my own judgement on what to do, giving special consideration of possible negative effects on diplomacy between us and West, South and North Witches.

Please let me know of any omissions.

Sun Tzu Wu

Rest looks good, but I think the GSpy should not head to North unless someone can show a good reason why that should happen rather than infiltrating West again.

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Do we have any city we can grow to population 23-24 by MM that isn't dedicated to a conflicting role? Chopping a few nearby Forests may reduce the population needed. Whipping is an option that bcool suggested, but that would require at least 2t and has lower hammer per population conversions that apply for all Wonders.

I think an instant UN is good only if we've already gotten the AP war started. I'm not sure that we will have enough Friendly allies to win at the first UN vote opportunity. So I'm not sure that growing a city to this size solely for 20 hammers/head is a good use of food, unless it's in GPfarm where we will then draft everyone away with the Globe Theatre.

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

I believe the detailed PPP has the right level of detail for this stage of the game. I'm certainly willing to add more detail, but doubt it would help me play the turn set any better.

The Worker actions may not be the best choices. That might be an area that may require the most change.

It would be wonderful if you can state your desired changes in such a way that I could copy and paste it. That would help me keep to the 3-4 day schedule.

If possible, I would like to start playing in 12-16 hours from now. The detailed PPP has been available for nearly two hours, so that makes it about 14-18 hours from when the detailed PPP was posted. I hope everyone is happy with this proposed schedule.

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

Thinks are looking good for that timeline. Thanks for the hard work! Apart from Isengard builds with a view to warring (and I like Kaitzilla's approach to early war), I think the main points have been agreed and there are only some minor details to resolve.

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by bcool

I like all of these ideas except #6. The Cristo Redeemer is so fun to play with but I think getting an engineer instead of a Great Scientist is going to slow us down more than help us. Plus you need a really big city to build the Cristo Redeemer with a great engineer. It is a tough wonder to build (1000 hammers as big as the UN), so you need a great engineer and at least 5-10 turns of hammers from a big productive city.

I like the idea of getting The Cristo Redeemer, because of its flexible use with a Diplomatic Victory. The Cristo Redeemer can be easily rushed in the same city that rushed The United Nations, unless whipping was used to get the remaining hammers.

If we want Chemistry and Biology, Great Scientist bulbs would be better than getting a Great Engineer. However, The Cristo Redeemer may make it easier to get the Diplomatic Victory than acquiring Chemistry and Biology would.

I'm in favor of trying to get a Great Engineer in cities not dedicated to getting our first six Great Scientists to acquire an Academy, bulb Physics and Electricity. So starting now we can add an Engineer in all other cities with a Forge and enough excess population to generate late Great People. Hagia Sophia in Capital will help add more GE GPPs to that city.

Sun Tzu Wu

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

I like the idea of getting The Cristo Redeemer, because of its flexible use with a Diplomatic Victory. The Cristo Redeemer can be easily rushed in the same city that rushed The United Nations, unless whipping was used to get the remaining hammers.

If we want Chemistry and Biology, Great Scientist bulbs would be better than getting a Great Engineer. However, The Cristo Redeemer may make it easier to get the Diplomatic Victory than acquiring Chemistry and Biology would.

I'm in favor of trying to get a Great Engineer in cities not dedicated to getting our first six Great Scientists to acquire an Academy, bulb Physics and Electricity. So starting now we can add an Engineer in all other cities with a Forge and enough excess population to generate late Great People. Hagia Sophia in Capital will help add more GE GPPs to that city.

Sun Tzu Wu

I don't mind peppering a few engineer specialists - the 1800 beakers from a Gscientist bulb is only about 2.5 turns of tech at 100%, and the possibility of Christo accelerating Diplo is real.

I don't think we want to consider targetting Chem or Biol until we know that we do or might need them to kill the wizard.

[bcool]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Introductory Remarks:

This PPP has not yet incorporated all input presented before my "Got it". I will read those posts now to ensure I didn't miss something there and will make revisions to the PPP as needed. I just don't want to keep everyone else from reviewing what I have. Please note that the micromanagement in cities is not as tight as when we had week long turn sets, but its there when its needed such as the # of Scientists being run in cities that will generate our six Great Scientists who are critical to early Mass Media and a Diplomatic Win.

----

In my Preliminary PPP, I had intended to cover the PPP without concern for the details. I regret not making that clear; I assumed that was what was expected in a Prelimanry PPP based on bcool's comments a few turn sets ago when we shifted from a turn set a week to a turn set every 3-4 days. We just can be as detailed with the preliminary PPP with this more aggressive turn set schedule.

The rough idea for preliminary PPP is just a list of goals. You went into a lot of detail about the bulb path and thus confused us. For example you now list as a goal of building the Globe Theater. This is something that we can debate before you go to the trouble of figuring how where to build the theaters. This saves the team time if we can agree on small and large goals for the turnset before the city builds are decided upon.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

The Preliminary PPP lays unfinished, so in the interests of keeping this turn set on schedule, I volunteer to play it out without a PPP. Just kidding (joking)!

Seriously, I will dive into the Detailed PPP which will contain micromanagement only for those specific parts of the PPP that are critical to the Win turn, irrespective of the "Destroy The Wizard of Oz" requirement, which due to lack of intelligence about the wizard would be impossible to due other than a blanket/carpet search for him (eliminating where he "probably" isn't to determine where he "may" actually be). This aspect will be covered in a subsequent post.

Please refer back to the Grand Strategy:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...postcount=2604

A Strategy may achieve its Goals with perfect efficiency, but if it doesn't "optimally" get one closer to the Grand Strategy Goals, that means an Alternative Strategy is better and time is better spent developing that Alternative Strategy instead.

Detailed Strategy: (No change from the Preliminary PPP)

Detailed Strategy must concern itself with Logistical Capabilities (for those entities in the game that require it, mainly Units). It mainly concerns itself with efficient producing and efficient consuming of Food, Hammers, Commerce, Research, Wealth, Espionage, Units, Great Person points, Great General points, Buildings and Wonders, and others I may have omitted. Some of these things can be only produced and consumed locally within a single City, with some exceptions (a lot of the exceptions concern Corporations).

Research:

Our primary research goal is Mass Media which allows us to build The United Nations which allows us to place the Diplomatic Victory Resolution of the UN ballot.

To acquire Mass Media, we must first acquire, via various means, the following technology path (at a minimum):

Astronomy (3120B) -> (Liberalism - 1t) (330/2184B) -> Printing Press (2496B) -> Scientific Method (3744B) -> Physics (6240B) -> Electricity (7020B) -> Radio (9360B) -> Mass Media (5616B)

EDIT: Astronomy is listed first, because it allows Observatories which bring in +25% Research at a modest cost of 150H compared to Universities at 200H. However, since Dorthy is Philosophical, Universities can be built at +100% Hammers making them cheaper than Observatories for those cities that do not have Universities. However, we must keep our war plans in mind and build Barracks in all cities expected to produce military units.

The long term plan is to bulb at least Physics and Electricity, use Liberalism to acquire "free" Radio. Currently a Great Scientist will bulb exactly 1500 + 3 x 80 = 1740B, since our Civ-Wide Population is 80. EDIT: Our population will be growing this entire turn set, so Civ-Wide Population may exceed 120 by the end of this set set, making the GS bulbs about 1500 + 3 x 120 = 1860B. This means that using two GSs to bulb Astronomy would waste up to 700B.

EDIT: According to bcool's Great Person generation spreadsheet (shows all Great Person generation one turn later than actual) we should generate a both a Great Engineer and Great Scientist on turn 144, and Great Scientists on turns 150, 156, 157, 163 and 166. Of course these Great People can't be used until the turn following their generation.

With the expected revolt to bureaucracy the Great People times will all be pushed back 1 turn.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

EDIT: The best plan for Great Scientist utilization is for the first Great Scientist to construct an Academy in Washington ASAP and bulb three Great Scientists on each of Physics and Electricity:

1) Three Great Scientists bulb (3 x ~1860B = ~5580B) just over 8/9 of Physics
2) Three Great Scientists bulb (3 x ~1860B = ~5580B) just less than 4/5 of Electricity

Yes most of us agree on this now. Great

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

We still have a Great Artist which could be used for a Golden Age (8t) to increase the speed of getting Great Scientists and Mass Media, but several players want the golden age later while building military and maybe building The United Nations?

I think the GA is best used for a switch near the end of our tech path to give the most value out the GA in terms of having the largest population and syncing with the expected switch of several civics for the war effort.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Academic Question: How large must a city be to leverage a Great Engineer rush to complete The United Nations in a single turn, including Hammers that city can muster yet that turn? Assume Hill Mines and no Railroad for primary Hammer sources.

all I know is that it is bigger than we are going to be able to produce. Hmm, now that I think about it maybe if we don't go for last GS on the GPP spreadsheet in GPFarm, we could grow GPFarm to be quite large. And we could build a few workshops for it to use too.
Edit: GPFarm could grow from T168 until T177 (expected MM date) I doubt it could get to more than 19 or 20. We might be able to do some creative build strategies. Use the Great engineer on the UN, then switch to a worker build set up to get max OF, than spills into a forge build that is 1 hammer away from finishing, whip that too, and then we could put ~130 OF hammers into the UN in 3 turns that way.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

City Builds:

Cities will continue building what is in their build queue, except those building Wealth could build Galleys which will convert in the queue to Galleons after Astronomy. Originally suggested by bcool and other cities where a player suggests a better alternative.

Since we currently do not have a quick way (Slavery or Universal Suffrage) to Build things other than forest chopping and Great Engineer rushing, we need to build things in cities well in advance of the need, especially for low hammer cities.

All cites that will be building military units for are future war will need to complete Barracks well before the war starts. For some cities, that may mean building Barracks now or putting it in the queue for building somewhat later.

Any city without a Courthouse will build one sooner rather than later, even the Capital. In my opinion, they should have been built as soon as possible after Code of Laws in all cities, starting with the ones furthest from the Capital. They reduce city maintenance -50% regardless of any slider setting. Courthouses will probably not be considered for cities with not enough Hammers to build them in 20t or less. In such cases, even building Wealth would be better.

Markets will be considered in high commerce cities and those cities we expect will support a significant number (3 or more) of Merchants. However, like Courthouses, only cities that can build them in 25t or less will be seriously consuidered.

Our plan means we will not be running the wealth slider much at all any more. So I'm strongly against Markets even in cities we plan to run merchants. The markets are just too expensive to build in a useful timeframe.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Washington will complete Oxford University in 3t. After that it will focus on growing its population while working all grassland cottages. Some plains cottages and grassland hill cottages (if any) will be considered if it permits reasonably fast growth (.i.e +5 Fpt or better).

We probably want Globe Theatre in GP Farm before the war, but with its low Hammer rate and dedication to generating Great Scientists at least until t167, it will build very slowly until then. So, GP Farm must start building Theatre immediately, compleing it in 17t; Five other cities must also complete Theatre as well before Globe Theartre can begin, so I've placed five additional Threatre builds in cities with significant Hammers, so they are completed by the end of the turn set or at least nearly complete, so there's no rush to complete them later; these Theatre builds can be delayed a bit to build something more important.

I am against building the Globe Theater in GPFarm. The theaters and the Globe Theater cost 6*50 + 300 = 600 hammers to build. I would much rather have 7 Galleons (560 hammers) instead of those theaters and the Globe Theater. Galleons to hunt the wizard or for the war effort. Transportation is as important as producing the military units.

We are not playing for a conquest or domination victory, so I would expect we would only draft a Globe Theater city 5-6 times since we likely only want to dip into Nationhood. Even if we stay in Nationhood I still think the Globe theater isn't worth it. We have a large surplus of happiness resources and several likely cities that we could draft at least twice. I think we are going to have plenty of drafting opportunities without worrying about happiness.

Plus building the Globe Theater in GPFarm works at cross purposes for first using it to produce great scientists and then preparing it to build the UN. I think after T167-8 when GPFarm produces the 1200 gp great person, GPFarm should max food so that it can get as large as it can for the Great Engineer and building the UN.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

City Growth:

All cities will focus on growth yet still work higher commerce plots when feasible, until they reach happiness cap or can support their tasks most efficiently. Growth goal shall be +5 Fpt or higher without significant loss of commerce.

Great Wonders:

Although none of the available Great Wonders are critical or even of major help in achieving the Grand Strategy, some may be useful to build in some of our Hammer cities when nothing else is especially useful. The remaining Great Wonders are:

Parthenon (obsolete with Scientific Method and thus of limited use in accelerating Great Person generation, but it could be built in 10t and provide +50% GGP generation in all cities)

way to late for this one.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Angkor Wat (obsolete with Computers and thus likely to last forever in our game; it provides +1 Hpt for each Priest making them produce more than an Engineer; 12t ETA)

no where close to being an efficient investment of hammers.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

The Hagia Sophia (obsolete with Steam Power and thus probably long lived for us; +50% Worker improvements is nice; 12t ETA)

Nice but I think we can get by with the workers we have and the workers we steal. It is expensive for its benefit.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Chichen Itza (obsolete with Rifling and thus it will last a while, but we may Rifling; +25% Defense is nearly useless to us, we hope; 12t ETA)

yes useless it is.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

The Sistine Chapel (never obsolete; nearly essential for a cultural victory; +2 Culture per turn per specialist; 15t ETA)

again no use to us.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

University of Sankore (obsolete with Computers; +2 Bpt per State Religion building; has great synergy with our Taoist Monasteries and Taoist Temples; 14t ETA)

a nice wonder but we will only have about 7 religious buildings max. So it gives us maybe 14 which is cut to 6-8 after scientific method is researched and the monastery go obsolete. A observatory in the capital is more valuable than this wonder.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Mausoleum of Maussollos (never obsolete; +50% Golden Age length; we can build it before our planned Golden Age and extend it 4t; 11t ETA)

I anticipate we only are going to have 1 Golden Age. I wouldn't mind building this for the failure gold and the chance we could build it. However I'm not sure this is more important than missionaries (the build I imagine many of our high hammer cities other than Isengard building).

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Shwedagon Paya (never obsolete; access to all Religious Civics; we lack access only to Free Religion and although that grants +10% Research we probably do not want that; 11t ETA)

Great Wonders we might consider include Angkor Wat, University of Sankore, and Mausoleum of Maussollos. The latter two seem best to me.

I don't think we have a city to spare to build these wonders. The only one I would consider is MoM.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

City Build Queues and Worker Tasks:

Washington:

Oxford University (3t)
Taoist Monastery (2t; 3 Mines -> 2 Grassland + 1 Plains Cottage)
Taoist Temple (4t; +2 Hpt; +1 Happiness)
Theatre (3t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)
Courthouse (+2.5 Wpt; +2 Ept; Spy specialist option)

I'm against the Taoist temple, the theater, and the courthouse here. I think we want missionaries more than we want any of these other builds. I would also build an observatory here but that is probably beyond your turn set.

I already explained my objection to the Globe Theater.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Stone City (Switch a citizen to Washington's cottage; after +3P, run Spy specialist + Merchant):

Taoist Temple (4t; t145 Spy specialist +4 Bpt +4 Ept)
Taoist Missionary (2-4t)
Theatre (4t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)
Market (12t; should be able to support 3-4 Merchants)

I'm against the theater and the market here. I would rather have more missionaries, build wealth, or start a galley.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Worker builds Workshop 2-N (6t); builds Workshop 1-W (6t).
Worker moves to 2-SE of Phant City's Iron (1t); build Iron Mine (6t); build G Farm 1-NE (5t).

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Gems City (will be running 0, 0, 2, 3, 6, ... Scientists -> 1 GS through t156):

Taoist Missionary (2t)
Taoist Missionary (4t)
Theatre (4-5t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)
Market (great capacity for running 6-8 Merchants after generating 2 GSs)

I'm against the theatre and market here. I think we can build more missionaries, wealth, spies, or boats

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Worker completes Jungle Chop (2t); build Workshop (6t); build Road (2t).

GP Farm (running 8, ... Scientists -> 4 GS through t166):

Theatre (17t; required to build Globe Theatre)

I'm against the theater here. I would rather build wealth or a galley here.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Taoist Missionary: Convert south witches using Horse Archer being built as escort.

Silver City (will be running 3 - 4t, 4 - 4t, 6, ... Scientists -> 1 GS through t163):

Taoist Temple (12t)

I think we should abandon the Temple build here. Build wealth or a galley. Silver needs to max food here until T160 to produce a great scientist. It won't have more than a hammer or 2 per turn. It won't finish the temple in time for the temple to pay off for us. The great scientist is more important that the temple, so I don't think turning on a hammer tile to get the temple faster makes sense either. So I suggest abandoning the temple build.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Worker builds Farm (5t); builds Farm 1-SE (5t) if Civil Service, otherwise Roads 1-SW, 2-S, 1-SE of Silver City.

Isengard:

Horse Archer (2t)
Taoist Temple (3t)
Library (4t)
Theatre (3t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)
University (5t)

I like kaitzilla's plan
2 war elephants for the barbarian city near Elizabeth
Then 4 longbows for Cimmerian the barbarian city we captured. It will be a nice killing ground for any stacks from Ragnar.
Definitely not a university.
I would build treb after the elephants and longbows (I'm hoping engineering will be ours by then then) If not Treb than Galleons.
I'm very okay with paying a bit of maintenance for military units built in Isengard. Isengard is the most efficient place to build military units and we are going to want a lot of military units in the not too distant future. So I think we use it to build them non-stop. Maybe finish the temple after the war elephants and before longbows, but even the temple I'm not sure about

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Culture Bridge:

Caravel (4t)
Theatre (8t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)
Galley (8t; do _not_ complete before we get Astronomy)

I'm against the theater. Galley or wealth build. After the caravel is built I would go max food and then run 4 merchants (perhaps 1 spy) at 6 pop.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Marble City:

Galley (24t)

Phants City (Adds Merchants + Spy specialists when Population can support them):

Courthouse (15-20t)

Worker build G Mine (4t); build Road (2t); move to 1-E of GP Farm (1t); build Road (2t); move 2-NW (1t).

Sheep City (In t145, add new citizen to Gem City's Grassland Hill Mine):

Courthouse (15-18t)

Worker builds Workshop (4t); builds Workshop 1-E (6t)
Worker moves onto Copper Hill (1t); build Workshop 1-NW (6t); move 1-S of Isengard (1t); build Workshop (6t).

Fur City (At Pop 8, add 3 Merchants + Spy specialist):

Galley (24t)

Worker completes Fur Camp (4t); moves to Ice Hill Silver (1t); Silver Mine (6t)
Ramanujan builds Road 1-SW on RS Tundra (3t); Road 1-SE on Ice (4t); Move SE on RS P Silk (1t); Build Road (2t); Axeman escort protects Worker.
Archer sits tight watching for 10t.

I think Fur City will not work the silver or the marble most likely (at least it will not work them in the near future). I would rather have the worker help build workshops near Isengard, or help Cimmerian (the captured barbarian city) That city is in desperate need of a lot of worker turns. Rice, Pigs, several forest chops and then most likely a workshop or 2.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Cimmerian (Run Artist till border pop):

Walls (7t)
Castle (14t, assuming we can steal Engineering)
Courthouse (~30t)

Worker completes Rice Farm (2t); Build Road (2t); Move 2-SE on GF; Build Road (2t); Build Pig Pasture (4t)

Exploring Units:

Our goal shall be having at most 5, 7 or 9 units out of border for exploration, so we incur no, +1, or +2 Wpt support costs for exceeding this limit.

The Work Boat will be moved south to explore Barbarian city that lies south of its position.

The Chariot will be moved to attempt shulec's teleport idea; more details on how to perform this are needed as well some test that it will work as expected.

sounds like this won't work until we defog the tile. So I think the chariot can do something else.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

The southern Axeman will move west to explore the SE and S part of the SW unrevealed area.

The War Elephant shall move SE along the coast and then explore the big unrevealed area in the SE corner of the map.

Horse Archer built in 2t will escort Taoist Missionaries to South Witches.

We are against converting the southern witches now. That idea has been abandoned by me recently after Kaitzilla pointed out that we really don't want them to join the war with the east since they will become friends with the west and north if they do.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Caravel being built in 4t will explore unrevealed area in the southeast corner of the map.

Spy on Pig: explores unrevealed area in SE corner of Map.

I don't know what spy you are talking about. There isn't a spy on a pig in the real game. If you mean the spy that is in the eastern witches territory, I would rather the spy return home to be a backup spy for us.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Galley near Gems City: move along coast in our culture NE, cross over to North witch area; move SW to Barbarian city.

I like Kaitzilla's idea to use this galley and 2 war elephants to take the barbarian city near Elizabeth. Capturing this barbarian city is probably worth at least 100 gold (since it has been around for a long time) and we can gift it to Elizabeth for diplo bonuses.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Great Spy moves to infiltrate North Witches.

I think we want to wait on this. I think we want to see what the western witches research before we commit to this infiltration.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Espionage:

Spy in Boston waits there for infiltration of North Witches; Will steal Engineering if the opportunity arises.

Spy near Trojan Horse will be moved there and wait; possibly steal Civil Service after waiting there 5t.

after we steal Civil Service we want to switch to bureaucracy I would think.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Lost Spies will be replaced ASAP in the nearest Hammer city to the city where the Spy will do his Espionage work.

Game Changing Situations:

Unless it is an Emergency, I will use my own judgement on what to do, giving special consideration of possible negative effects on diplomacy between us and West, South and North Witches.

Please let me know of any omissions.

Sun Tzu Wu

[bcool]

Re: theaters & Globe Theater


I'm against the Globe Theater for the following reasons...
1) We are planning 1 war, so the need for sustained drafting is non-existent.
---We are going for a UN victory guys. if we do 6 rounds of drafting that is 18 muskets. We can get 18 muskets out of
GPfarm x 1
Washington x1
Gems x2
Stone x2
Sheep x2
Phants x2
Silver x2
Fur City x2
Cultural Bridge x2
Marble x2

We have almost all the happiness resources. We have yet to hook up incense and fur, plus we likely will be able to get wine. So we have at least +2 more happiness than we do now.

We have 16 base happiness in cities without forges or markets.
+4 starting
+1 charismatic leader
+1 religion
+10 resources in our own borders (maybe +1 if we can trade for wine)

A city that is size 10 or less can easily draft twice without worrying about happiness. The theaters are just not necessary. Size 11 or 12 cities yes they might get some happiness issues as they regrow (but these cities probably have forges and/or temples)

We do not need theaters. Or the Globe theater to draft an army of 18 muskets. Yes if we want more than 18 muskets maybe, maybe the Globe theater is worth, but really we are going to want more than 18 muskets? (This in addition to the units we whip under police state).

2) The alternative to theaters and the Globe Theater is much more attractive to me. Namely 7 galleons!

I would much rather have 7 galleons (560 hammers) than 6 theaters and the Globe Theater (600 hammers in total).

Or I would much rather have 600 gold than the theaters and Globe Theater for that matter.

Galleons why we need them...
1) hunting the wizard
a galleon chain might be needed to transport a large force to take out a nasty wizard unit.
a galleon chain might just cut a significant number of turns off of a cross map journey that might be needed.
2) Speeding up the conquest of the eastern witches.
We are going to need a significant navy to efficiently fight the eastern witches. And we are going to want the load of building those boats to be distributed out to cities without barracks ideally.

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Introductory Remarks:

Changes will be in this dark red font. If have already reviewed this PPP, you can read just the part in this font color to pick out the differences with the last revision.

This PPP has incorporated all input presented before my "Got it" that is relevant to this turn set.

----

In my Preliminary PPP, I had intended to cover the PPP without concern for the details. I regret not making that clear; I assumed that was what was expected in a Prelimanry PPP based on bcool's comments a few turn sets ago when we shifted from a turn set a week to a turn set every 3-4 days. We just can be as detailed with the preliminary PPP with this more aggressive turn set schedule.

The Preliminary PPP lays unfinished, so in the interests of keeping this turn set on schedule, I volunteer to play it out without a PPP. Just kidding (joking)!

Seriously, I will dive into the Detailed PPP which will contain micromanagement only for those specific parts of the PPP that are critical to the Win turn, irrespective of the "Destroy The Wizard of Oz" requirement, which due to lack of intelligence about the wizard would be impossible to due other than a blanket/carpet search for him (eliminating where he "probably" isn't to determine where he "may" actually be). This aspect will be covered in a subsequent post.

Please refer back to the Grand Strategy:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...postcount=2604

A Strategy may achieve its Goals with perfect efficiency, but if it doesn't "optimally" get one closer to the Grand Strategy Goals, that means an Alternative Strategy is better and time is better spent developing that Alternative Strategy instead.

Detailed Strategy: (No change from the Preliminary PPP)

Detailed Strategy must concern itself with Logistical Capabilities (for those entities in the game that require it, mainly Units). It mainly concerns itself with efficient producing and efficient consuming of Food, Hammers, Commerce, Research, Wealth, Espionage, Units, Great Person points, Great General points, Buildings and Wonders, and others I may have omitted. Some of these things can be only produced and consumed locally within a single City, with some exceptions (a lot of the exceptions concern Corporations).

Research:

Our primary research goal is Mass Media which allows us to build The United Nations which allows us to place the Diplomatic Victory Resolution of the UN ballot.

To acquire Mass Media, we must first acquire, via various means, the following technology path (at a minimum):

Astronomy (3120B) -> (Liberalism - 1t) (330/2184B) -> Printing Press (2496B) -> Scientific Method (3744B) -> Physics (6240B) -> Electricity (7020B) -> Radio (9360B) -> Mass Media (5616B)

EDIT: Astronomy is listed first, because it allows Observatories which bring in +25% Research at a modest cost of 150H compared to Universities at 200H. However, since Dorthy is Philosophical, Universities can be built at +100% Hammers making them cheaper than Observatories for those cities that do not have Universities. However, we must keep our war plans in mind and build Barracks in all cities expected to produce military units.

The long term plan is to bulb at least Physics and Electricity, use Liberalism to acquire "free" Radio. Currently a Great Scientist will bulb exactly 1500 + 3 x 80 = 1740B, since our Civ-Wide Population is 80. EDIT: Our population will be growing this entire turn set, so Civ-Wide Population may exceed 120 by the end of this set set, making the GS bulbs about 1500 + 3 x 120 = 1860B. This means that using two GSs to bulb Astronomy would waste up to 700B.

EDIT: According to bcool's Great Person generation spreadsheet (shows all Great Person generation one turn later than actual) we should generate a both a Great Engineer and Great Scientist on turn 144, and Great Scientists on turns 150, 156, 157, 163 and 166. Of course these Great People can't be used until the turn following their generation.

EDIT: The best plan for Great Scientist utilization is for the first Great Scientist to construct an Academy in Washington ASAP and bulb three Great Scientists on each of Physics and Electricity:

1) Three Great Scientists bulb (3 x ~1860B = ~5580B) just over 8/9 of Physics
2) Three Great Scientists bulb (3 x ~1860B = ~5580B) just less than 4/5 of Electricity

We still have a Great Artist which could be used for a Golden Age (8t) to increase the speed of getting Great Scientists and Mass Media, but several players want the golden age later while building military and maybe building The United Nations?

Academic Question: How large must a city be to leverage a Great Engineer rush to complete The United Nations in a single turn, including Hammers that city can muster yet that turn? Assume Hill Mines and no Railroad for primary Hammer sources.

[COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]Civics Switches:

Switch to Bureaucracy after stealing Civil Service.
[/COLOR]
City Builds:

Cities will continue building what is in their build queue, except those building Wealth could build Galleys which will convert in the queue to Galleons after Astronomy. Originally suggested by bcool and other cities where a player suggests a better alternative.

Since we currently do not have a quick way (Slavery or Universal Suffrage) to Build things other than forest chopping and Great Engineer rushing, we need to build things in cities well in advance of the need, especially for low hammer cities.

All cites that will be building military units for are future war will need to complete Barracks well before the war starts. For some cities, that may mean building Barracks now or putting it in the queue for building somewhat later.

Any city without a Courthouse will build one sooner rather than later, even the Capital. In my opinion, they should have been built as soon as possible after Code of Laws in all cities, starting with the ones furthest from the Capital. They reduce city maintenance -50% regardless of any slider setting. Courthouses will probably not be considered for cities with not enough Hammers to build them in 20t or less. In such cases, even building Wealth would be better. mabraham doesn't consider the Courthouse builds cost effective versus the benefit they provide.

Markets will be considered in those cities we expect will support a significant number (3 or more) of Merchants. However, like Courthouses, only cities that can build them in 25t or less will be seriously considered. mabraham doesn't consider the Market builds cost effective versus the benefit they provide. I agree that there may be limited benefit at 100% research, except when there are several Merchants bringing in Wealth.

Washington will complete Oxford University in 3t. After that it will focus on growing its population while working all grassland cottages. Some plains cottages and grassland hill cottages (if any) will be considered if it permits reasonably fast growth (.i.e +5 Fpt or better). [COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]mabraham doesn't like working fresh water plots and neither do I (Sorry, it didn't occur to me to state something so obvious.)[/COLOR]

We probably want Globe Theatre in GP Farm before the war, but with its low Hammer rate and dedication to generating Great Scientists at least until t167, it will build very slowly until then. So, GP Farm must start building Theatre immediately, compleing it in 17t; Five other cities must also complete Theatre as well before Globe Theartre can begin, so I've placed five additional Threatre builds in cities with significant Hammers, so they are completed by the end of the turn set or at least nearly complete, so there's no rush to complete them later; these Theatre builds can be delayed a bit to build something more important. [COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"] mabraham said "I think theatres take low priority in non-GPfarm cities until T160 or so." I agreed with this statement a priori, but would defer builds only till t155 (next turn set); I simply included the builds in the queues to be sure they were completed in time to start Globe Theatre in GP Farm.[/COLOR]

City Growth:

All cities will focus on growth yet still work higher commerce plots when feasible, until they reach happiness cap or can support their tasks most efficiently. Growth goal shall be +5 Fpt or higher without significant loss of commerce.

Great Wonders:

Although none of the available Great Wonders are critical or even of major help in achieving the Grand Strategy, some may be useful to build in some of our Hammer cities when nothing else is especially useful. The remaining Great Wonders are:

Parthenon (obsolete with Scientific Method and thus of limited use in accelerating Great Person generation, but it could be built in 10t and provide +50% GGP generation in all cities)

Angkor Wat (obsolete with Computers and thus likely to last forever in our game; it provides +1 Hpt for each Priest making them produce more than an Engineer; 12t ETA)

The Hagia Sophia (obsolete with Steam Power and thus probably long lived for us; +50% Worker improvements is nice; 12t ETA)

Chichen Itza (obsolete with Rifling and thus it will last a while, but we may Rifling; +25% Defense is nearly useless to us, we hope; 12t ETA)

The Sistine Chapel (never obsolete; nearly essential for a cultural victory; +2 Culture per turn per specialist; 15t ETA)

University of Sankore (obsolete with Computers; +2 Bpt per State Religion building; has great synergy with our Taoist Monasteries and Taoist Temples; 14t ETA)

Mausoleum of Maussollos (never obsolete; +50% Golden Age length; we can build it before our planned Golden Age and extend it 4t; 11t ETA)

Shwedagon Paya (never obsolete; access to all Religious Civics; we lack access only to Free Religion and although that grants +10% Research we probably do not want that; 11t ETA)

Great Wonders we might consider include Angkor Wat, University of Sankore, and Mausoleum of Maussollos. The latter two seem best to me. mabraham considers maybe Mausoleum of Maussollos only. However, no wonders have been placed in the queues below. Some of the older great wonders may be effective wealth producers when there is a +100% Marble/Stone/Copper/Gold resource multiplier. One of the AIs is likely to complete them somewhat soon, one can hope.

City Build Queues and Worker Tasks:

Washington:

Oxford University (3t)
Taoist Monastery (2t; 3 Mines -> 2 Grassland + 1 Plains Cottage)
Taoist Temple (4t; +2 Hpt; +1 Happiness)
Observatory (+2.5 Wpt; +2 Ept; Spy specialist option)
t157: Theatre (3t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)

Stone City (Switch a citizen to Washington's cottage; after +3P, run Spy specialist + Merchant):

Taoist Temple (4t; t145 Spy specialist +4 Bpt +4 Ept)
Taoist Missionary (2-4t)
Mausoleum of Maussollos (12-19t; +50% Golden Age)
t156: Theatre (4t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)


Worker builds Workshop 2-N (6t); builds Workshop 1-W (6t).
Worker moves to 2-S+1-E of Washington (1t); build Cottage (4t); move 2-W (1t); build Cottage (4t).

Gems City (will be running 0, 0, 2, 3, 6, ... Scientists -> 1 GS through t156):

Taoist Missionary (2t)
Taoist Missionary (4t)
Market (great capacity for running 6-8 Merchants after generating 2 GSs)
t155: Theatre (4-5t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)

Worker completes Jungle Chop (2t); build Workshop (6t); move 1-N+2-E on D Dye (1t); build Plantation (6t).

GP Farm (running 8, ... Scientists -> 4 GS through t166):

Theatre (17t; required to build Globe Theatre)

Taoist Missionary: Convert west witches using Horse Archer being built as escort.

Silver City (will be running 3 - 4t, 4 - 4t, 6, ... Scientists -> 1 GS through t163):

Taoist Temple (12t)

Worker builds Farm (5t); builds Workshop 1-SE (6t).

Isengard: (Base Commerce 19 -> 25 after +3P working Shore plots; justifies Library + University now; each military unit built is costing us minimum 1 Wpt, thus building military can wait a turn set or two when better units can be built)

Horse Archer (2t)
Taoist Temple (3t)
Library (4t)
University (5t)
t157: Theatre (3t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)

Culture Bridge:

Caravel (4t)
Theatre (8t; 1 of 6 needed for Globe Theatre)
Galley (8t; do _not_ complete before we get Astronomy)

Marble City:

Galley (24t)

Phants City (Adds Merchants + Spy specialists when Population can support them):

Courthouse (15-20t)

Worker build G Mine (4t); build Road (2t); build D Iron Mine (4t).

Sheep City (In t145, add new citizen to Gem City's Grassland Hill Mine):

Courthouse (15-18t)

Worker builds Workshop (4t); builds Workshop 1-E (6t)
Worker moves onto Copper Hill (1t); build Workshop 1-NW (6t); move 1-S of Isengard (1t); build Workshop (6t).

Fur City (At Pop 8, add 3 Merchants + Spy specialist):

Galley (24t)

Worker completes Fur Camp (4t); moves to Ice Hill Silver (1t); Silver Mine (6t)
Ramanujan builds Road 1-SW on RS Tundra (3t); Road 1-SE on Ice (4t); Move SE on RS P Silk (1t); Build Road (2t); Axeman escort protects Worker.
Archer sits tight watching for 10t.

Cimmerian (Run Artist till border pop):

Walls (7t)
Castle (14t, assuming we can steal Engineering)
Courthouse (~30t)

Worker completes Rice Farm (2t); Build Road (2t); Move 2-SE on GF; Build Road (2t); Build Pig Pasture (4t)

Exploring Units:

Our goal shall be having at most 5, 7 or 9 units out of border for exploration, so we incur no, +1, or +2 Wpt support costs for exceeding this limit.

The Work Boat will be moved south to explore Barbarian city that lies south of its position.

The Chariot will be moved to attempt shulec's teleport idea; more details on how to perform this are needed as well some test that it will work as expected.

The southern Axeman will move west to explore the SE and S part of the SW unrevealed area.

The War Elephant shall move SE along the coast and then explore the big unrevealed area in the SE corner of the map.

Horse Archer built in 2t will escort Taoist Missionaries to South Witches.

Caravel being built in 4t will explore unrevealed area in the southeast corner of the map.

Spy on Pig: explores unrevealed area in SE corner of Map.

Galley near Gems City: move along coast in our culture NE, cross over to North witch area; move SW to Barbarian city.

Great Spy moves to infiltrate North Witches.

Espionage:

Spy in Boston waits there for infiltration of North Witches; Will steal Engineering if the opportunity arises.

Spy near Trojan Horse will be moved there and wait; possibly steal Civil Service after waiting there 5t.

Lost Spies will be replaced ASAP in the nearest Hammer city to the city where the Spy will do his Espionage work.

Game Changing Situations:

Unless it is an Emergency, I will use my own judgement on what to do, giving special consideration of possible negative effects on diplomacy between us and West, South and North Witches.

Please let me know of any omissions.

Sun Tzu Wu

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by bcool

Re: theaters & Globe Theater


I'm against the Globe Theater for the following reasons...
1) We are planning 1 war, so the need for sustained drafting is non-existent.
---We are going for a UN victory guys. if we do 6 rounds of drafting that is 18 muskets. We can get 18 muskets out of
GPfarm x 1
Washington x1
Gems x2
Stone x2
Sheep x2
Phants x2
Silver x2
Fur City x2
Cultural Bridge x2
Marble x2

We have almost all the happiness resources. We have yet to hook up incense and fur, plus we likely will be able to get wine. So we have at least +2 more happiness than we do now.

We have 16 base happiness in cities without forges or markets.
+4 starting
+1 charismatic leader
+1 religion
+10 resources in our own borders (maybe +1 if we can trade for wine)

A city that is size 10 or less can easily draft twice without worrying about happiness. The theaters are just not necessary. Size 11 or 12 cities yes they might get some happiness issues as they regrow (but these cities probably have forges and/or temples)

We do not need theaters. Or the Globe theater to draft an army of 18 muskets. Yes if we want more than 18 muskets maybe, maybe the Globe theater is worth, but really we are going to want more than 18 muskets? (This in addition to the units we whip under police state).

2) The alternative to theaters and the Globe Theater is much more attractive to me. Namely 7 galleons!

I would much rather have 7 galleons (560 hammers) than 6 theaters and the Globe Theater (600 hammers in total).

Or I would much rather have 600 gold than the theaters and Globe Theater for that matter.

Galleons why we need them...
1) hunting the wizard
a galleon chain might be needed to transport a large force to take out a nasty wizard unit.
a galleon chain might just cut a significant number of turns off of a cross map journey that might be needed.
2) Speeding up the conquest of the eastern witches.
We are going to need a significant navy to efficiently fight the eastern witches. And we are going to want the load of building those boats to be distributed out to cities without barracks ideally.

bc makes good points. 18 muskets and supporting trebs plus airships should be plenty to do serious damage... and after 15 turns we can even draft again. We don't even need to kill the east - if we get west and north voting for us that's probably enough to win. If we judge we can turn off the tech tree, then we can run the slider for culture if we really need to do more drafting - but I doubt it.

I think we should not build theatres or Globe Theatre.

We have lots of profitable stuff to build in the next 30 turns (missionaries, the few remaining buildings, troops for Cimmerian, trebs, airships, galleys/galleons

[bcool]

re: military units in Isengard

STZ is concerned that we are going to be paying for maintenance on the military units we finish. I think this is short sighted.

2 war elephants can capture the barbarian city and get at least 100 gold from capturing this very old city. That alone will pay for the war elephants and the 4 longbows we want out of Isengard for 18 turns.

I really really like building military units using our Heroic Epic city. I really really dislike building a library and university in my Heroic Epic city.

Re: lakes for the capital? YES

It has been suggested we build non-river plains cottages for the capital. It is too late for them to be useful in my opinion. A cottage takes 10 turns to mature. and then a hamlet takes 20 turns to mature. So an cottage built now even if it was immediately worked would never produce more than 2 commerce in the relevant time frame.
It is significantly better to grow faster and get 2 commerce from the fresh water lakes in the capital then run a plains cottage. In fact the river grass hill mine under bureaucracy is better than a plains cottage. I would keep the mines mines too. Upon reflection we might want to build the UN in the capital. I estimate from the attached test game that the capital can grow to be 18 population by T172 if we max food and commerce in the capital. This is competitive with the size that GPFarm will be and the capital has a forge and will have the bureaucracy bonus. I think the capital is clearly better than GPFarm. This argues in favor of growing the capital.

Which means I think even a plains farm near the capital in one of the 2 unused plains tiles will be useful. The other plains can be a workshop (low priority but would still be useful in the UN building phase).

re: test game
This is a test game that I played out from the T134 save so don't look to closely at the details. I used this test game to get a feel for the research rate and to get realistic numbers for washington.

re: courthouses
I'm going to do some cost benefit analysis on courthouse now...
Edit:
Phants city Courthouse
Phants city statistics 24/30 food 34/120 hammers invested in courthouse 6.34 current maintenance (1.17 inflation rate)
So Phants can build the courthouse by T154 by...
always working clams 2 farms & dye
T144 switch coast to ivory (+4 hammers)
T145 add coast (with growth to 6 pop) (+4 hammers)
T146 same (+4 hammers)
T147 switch coast to Gmine (+7 hammers)
T148 add 2nd Gmine (with growth to 7 pop) now + 10 hammers per turn
T149-T154 no change (6 turns 10 hammers)
If we tech out to T177 (33 turns from now)
That means the courthouse will help us for about 20 turns
20*(6.34/2) *1.17 = 74 in wealth savings using this turn numbers
However at 7 pop Phants will have 7.11 in maintenance and by T165 inflation will be 24%
So more realistically 20*(7.11/2)*1.24 = 88 in gold savings at the very minimum. ** since if our empire grows these numbers will go higher. And if you look at the alternative path of growing on coastal tiles, Phants will be running a maintenance of about 7.77.
Phants would be almost at pop 8 by T155


If we don't build the courthouse in Phants city we could grow faster and work coasts instead of mines...
So the maintenance for this path would be a bit higher but we would be working coasts instead of mines
So we would be working mines and ivory (we work 16 mine-turns & 12 ivory-turns)
The coastal tiles would give us 32+12 commerce and 16+12 more food.
Plus it grows faster and would run an extra coastal tile for about 10 turns so another 20 extra commerce
Phants would be at pop 9 by ~T154 without the courthouse, and could then run 2 merchants, a coastal tile, ivory, dye, 2 farms, clams

So courthouse path produces
~a minimum of 88 gold ~40 espionage (+ ability to run a spy specialist) at the cost of losing
64 commerce-8 extra gold in maintenance, 28 food (1+ population and what that can produce --that is generously equal to 14 merchant-turns)

So is 88 gold & 40 espionage > then 56 commerce + 42 gold + 42 science +10 wealth you can build instead of the courthouse while growing?

I think it is a very close call since long term the courthouse will be more valuable.
gold is more valuable than commerce. With Oxford and several universities we will be transforming gold into at least twice as much science.
So 88 gold = 176 science + 40 espionage
42 gold *2 + 56 commerce which is mostly science + 42 science = 182 science

I think the courthouse in Phants city wins since I think 176 science + 40 espionage > 202 science
Plus if we take longer than 30 turns the courthouse will be more valuable.

Sheep City courthouse

Sheep city can also build a courthouse by T154-5 by...
always working clams and a grass hill mine and...
T145 add coast with growth
T146 continue with coast
T147 with growth switch coast to grass hill mine and add workshop
T148-T151 same
T152 with growth add another workshop
T153-54 switch workshops to coasts

The case in Sheep is weaker since Sheep could grow more than Phants city could and it has weaker hammer tiles.
Sheep could be either size 7 without a courthouse (by aggressively growing on coastal tiles) by T155 or it could be Size 5 with a courthouse.
Sheep would be up ~30 food without a courthouse and would have worked ~30 coastal tile turns more than the courthouse path.

courthouse saves a bit less for Sheep too since it is closer to the capital. I estimate the maintenance for size 7 sheep city to be 6.48. So the courthouse saves approximately 20*(6.48/2)*1.24 = 80 gold until we get mass media and produces 40 espionage (and allows a spy specialist).

If we don't build a courthouse in Sheep we produce 60 more commerce from coastal tiles and will have 30 more food (generous equal to 15 merchant turns or 45 gold and 45 research)

So is 80 gold + 40 espionage > 60 commerce-8 in extra maintenance for having a higher pop faster + 45 gold + 45 science + 10 gold it can build

Or is we value gold at 1 gold = 2 science and assume the vast majority of the commerce in sheep city is turned into science then it is

160 science + 40 espionage vs. 207 science
There is an argument for the courthouse in Sheep city if you believe the espionage will be useful.
I favor the courthouse in Sheep City as well

re: playing soon
I think we need some consensus on the theater/Globe theater issue and military units from Isengard before we give the green light to have STZ play. I would like some serious consideration to be made to these issues. I'm okay if STZ can only play today and not tomorrow, but I think there are some serious matters to discuss still.

re: MoM -the GA lengthening wonder
I'm okay building MoM in stone city during the turns it can't build a missionary for us. However, if we can build missionaries I wouldn't build MoM. I think MoM for failure gold is definitely attractive. And if we manage to build it giving it a low priority, great.

re: shared cottage in stone city
I think stone city should give the shared cottage back to washington after we switch to 100% research.

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by bcool

re: military units in Isengard

STZ is concerned that we are going to be paying for maintenance on the military units we finish. I think this is short sighted.

Earlier war needs more units and this delivers faster diplo bonuses and population gains. Sounds great for a couple of gold. As our population grows, so does our quota of free units, I think.

Originally Posted by bcool

2 war elephants can capture the barbarian city and get at least 100 gold from capturing this very old city. That alone will pay for the war elephants and the 4 longbows we want out of Isengard for 18 turns.

I really really like building military units using our Heroic Epic city. I really really dislike building a library and university in my Heroic Epic city.

Definitely.

Originally Posted by bcool

Re: lakes for the capital? YES

It has been suggested we build non-river plains cottages for the capital. It is too late for them to be useful in my opinion. A cottage takes 10 turns to mature. and then a hamlet takes 20 turns to mature. So an cottage built now even if it was immediately worked would never produce more than 2 commerce in the relevant time frame.
It is significantly better to grow faster and get 2 commerce from the fresh water lakes in the capital then run a plains cottage. In fact the river grass hill mine under bureaucracy is better than a plains cottage. I would keep the mines mines too. Upon reflection we might want to build the UN in the capital. I estimate from the attached test game that the capital can grow to be 18 population by T172 if we max food and commerce in the capital. This is competitive with the size that GPFarm will be and the capital has a forge and will have the bureaucracy bonus. I think the capital is clearly better than GPFarm. This argues in favor of growing the capital.

OK, you've convinced me. Work the lakes to grow, and then the mines. Don't bother with cottages unless/until we know we need big tech.

Originally Posted by bcool

Which means I think even a plains farm near the capital in one of the 2 unused plains tiles will be useful. The other plains can be a workshop (low priority but would still be useful in the UN building phase).

The "UN building phase" will be about 5 turns if we were to rush it with 17 population (500+20*17 = 840). Cows, center, 2Pmines Gmine is 16 base hammers. Plus forge and Bureaucracy is 28. 5*28 is the remaining 16. We'd actually have to grow to size 19 to speed up the UN.

Originally Posted by bcool

re: test game
This is a test game that I played out from the T134 save so don't look to closely at the details. I used this test game to get a feel for the research rate and to get realistic numbers for washington.

re: courthouses
I'm going to do some cost benefit analysis on courthouse now...

re: playing soon
I think we need some consensus on the theater/Globe theater issue and military units from Isengard before we give the green light to have STZ play. I would like some serious consideration to be made to these issues. I'm okay if STZ can only play today and not tomorrow, but I think there are some serious matters to discuss still.

re: MoM -the GA lengthening wonder
I'm okay building MoM in stone city during the turns it can't build a missionary for us. However, if we can build missionaries I wouldn't build MoM. I think MoM for failure gold is definitely attractive. And if we manage to build it giving it a low priority, great.

re: shared cottage in stone city
I think stone city should give the shared cottage back to washington after we switch to 100% research.

Agreed on all.

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by bcool

re: courthouses
I'm going to do some cost benefit analysis on courthouse now...
Edit:
Phants city statistics 24/30 food 34/120 hammers invested in courthouse 6.34 current maintenance (1.17 inflation rate)
So Phants can build the courthouse by T154 by...
always working clams 2 farms & dye
T144 switch coast to ivory (+4 hammers)
T145 add coast (with growth to 6 pop) (+4 hammers)
T146 same (+4 hammers)
T147 switch coast to Gmine (+7 hammers)
T148 add 2nd Gmine (with growth to 7 pop) now + 10 hammers per turn
T149-T154 no change (6 turns 10 hammers)
If we tech out to T177 (33 turns from now)
That means the courthouse will help us for about 20 turns
20*(6.34/2) *1.17 = 74 in wealth savings using this turn numbers
However at 7 pop Phants will have 7.11 in maintenance and by T165 inflation will be 24%
So more realistically 20*(7.11/2)*1.24 = 88 in gold savings at the very minimum. ** since if our empire grows these numbers will go higher. And if you look at the alternative path of growing on coastal tiles, Phants will be running a maintenance of about 7.77.
Phants would be almost at pop 8 by T155


If we don't build the courthouse in Phants city we could grow faster and work coasts instead of mines...
So the maintenance for this path would be a bit higher but we would be working coasts instead of mines
So we would be working mines and ivory (we work 16 mine-turns & 12 ivory-turns)
The coastal tiles would give us 32+12 commerce and 16+12 more food.
Plus it grows faster and would run an extra coastal tile for about 10 turns so another 20 extra commerce
Phants would be at pop 9 by ~T154 without the courthouse, and could then run 2 merchants, a coastal tile, ivory, dye, 2 farms, clams

So courthouse path produces
~a minimum of 88 gold ~40 espionage (+ ability to run a spy specialist) at the cost of losing
64 commerce-8 extra gold in maintenance, 28 food (1+ population and what that can produce --that is generously equal to 14 merchant-turns)

So is 88 gold & 40 espionage > then 56 commerce + 42 gold + 42 science?

I think it is a very close call since long term the courthouse will be more valuable.
gold is more valuable than commerce. With Oxford and several universities we will be transforming gold into at least twice as much science.
So 88 gold = 176 science + 40 espionage
42 gold *2 + 56 commerce which is mostly science + 42 science = 182 science

I think the courthouse in Phants city wins since I think 176 science + 40 espionage > 182 science
Plus if we take longer than 30 turns the courthouse will be more valuable.

Good analysis. The courthouse in Phants seems close enough to breaking even that we may as well have it for insurance against the long term.

[bcool]

I updated my analysis for the courthouses slightly after mabraham responded (forgot they would be building wealth in the alternative case), but the numbers are still close enough so the case for courthouses in sheep and phants to stand.

[shulec]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

The Chariot will be moved to attempt shulec's teleport idea; more details on how to perform this are needed as well some test that it will work as expected.

I may not have been clear. Abandon this idea for now. I does NOT work due to the fog covering the island.

I agree that Isengard should build military units and not research buildings.

I agree that we will not need theaters and the Globe Theater.

I don't think there is any reason to rush the UN. Use the GE and finish the standard build. We will not be ready for a diplomatic victory at that time anyway.

[shulec]

This is the most accurate test game. I am putting it here because it was only downloaded by one person. I see that people have been downloading the file that bcool had requested for trying to make the test more accurate. He said he couldn't improve upon it. That would not be the best one to use.

Use the test game below. It is one food short in Culture bridge and Phants City and has seven hammers excess in Phants.

The GP are off a bit, but bcool's spreadsheet should take care of this.

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by mabraham

I don't mind peppering a few engineer specialists - the 1800 beakers from a Gscientist bulb is only about 2.5 turns of tech at 100%, and the possibility of Christo accelerating Diplo is real.

When these later (after t167) Great People are generated our research rate could be improved to the point where a Great Scientist bulb (1800-2000B) is equal to about 2t at 100%.

I agree 100% with that The Cristo Redentor can provide a very flexible means of manipulating AI Diplomacy by switching to a new civic or free religion and then either bribe or use espionage to cause the AI to adopt the new civic or free religion.

Originally Posted by mabraham

I don't think we want to consider targetting Chem or Biol until we know that we do or might need them to kill the wizard.

In my opinion, Chemistry -> Biology can be an effective way to rapidly increase our own populations via farms in preparation for the Diplomatic Victory Resolution (farm over every plot where a farm can be, except sole resources). The closer our own population is to 60%, but equal or over (55% is a safer goal), we need only the vote of any other AI to win.

Sun Tzu Wu

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I am starting to review recent comments. For major changes I will enter those that gained the support of at majority of the team, as far as I'm able to determine that. For less important changes, I'll add those I agree with or that have the support of three other members. (In a true secession game, the player up is dictator for the turn set, so believe I'm being quite accommodating to what the team's preferences are.) For example, I agreed to most of mabraham's suggestions in his very early morning post without further discussion.

I'm unlikely to agree to abandon Courthouse builds that have a significant # hammers already committed. I agree that new Market builds are marginal (unless we expect to work 6 or more Merchants in that city) and will drop them to a whisper of "Nay". On military issues you will need very persuasive arguments, since I do have some experience in such matters; the military goals need to be agreed upon first.

I will begin reviewing comments shortly. Please add your statements of support now, so I can see "which way the wind is blowing" and simply enter the consensus view into the PPP.

I still plan to play the turn set yet today, but that will be delayed till 16:00-18:00 server time I expect, unless ... No, we will come to a consensus view shortly I'm sure.

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

[bcool]

Re: evaluting teching Nationalism ourselves and making an attempt at both the MoM and Taj Mahal.

I just had a thought...

What if we tech nationalism ourselves before astronomy or Printing Press even and build the Taj Mahal...

Of course this would make the MoM more exciting and we could probably time the building of MoM to be before the Taj Mahal.

Of course if we lose the MoM race would teching Nationalism ourselves and building the Taj Mahal be worth the diversion.
Well it is a risk that we spend the research that an AI might tech for us... so worst case we "waste" the research on Nationalism and only get an 8 turn GA...

Our population would be around 100, so that is 100 population producing maybe an extra hammer, an extra commerce, more gp, or both...

Let's say 14 specialists that we want the gp from and maybe 10 specialists that will produce extra gp that we will not use.
so about 75 population producing extra hammers or commerce or both for us. The capital will produce about 14 extra commerce from a GA and that would be multiplied by 1.5 and then by 2.5-2.6 if we are doing 100% science.
The capial alone would produce an extra 52 science per turn.
That leaves 61 other population let's assume and average multiplier of 1.25 (since some cities don't have libraries and universities) and some don't have forges...
61*1.25 = 76 extra hammers/commerce

So 52 + 76 + and extra 42 useful gp per turn.
128*8turns = 1024 extra raw research or hammers. * 1.2 tech prerequisites = 1228 (that is significantly less than the 2808B we need to self tech nationalism.

42 useful gp per turn (looking at spreadsheet realistically probably won't build the Taj until T158 so we get a few great people 1 or 2 turns earlier and could get a great person from GPFarm T175 is we tried.

We would also need 700/2 hammers to build it too...

Hmm. worst case teching Nationalism ourselves and building the Taj Mahal doesn't look that great.

medium case 12 turns of a GA using MoM to length it to 12 turns[/B]. [B](but an AI techs Nationalism and we could have traded for it or stolen it)

increases research up to 1843 over the span of the GA and makes a T173 great person out of GPFarm possible. Research still doesn't add up to the 2808 we would need for nationalism ourselves.
If you consider the value of another great person out of GPFarm, then yes the GA makes sense even if the AI techs Nationalism for us. Since a great scientist or Merchant would be worth ~1800 research or ~1000 gold for the merchant.

However, Still not great considering the cost to build the Taj Mahal. It is close thing, if you factor in the value of the last great person from GPFarm that we would then it makes sense.

(a hidden cost to this would be diverting the capital to building the Taj Mahal instead of an observatory).
edit it is conceivable we could settle on that 10 forest spot mabraham noted in the hub and chop out the Taj Mahal 10 forests would just about build it with the marble bonus. The city would have to contribute 50 raw hammers to the effort (quite reasonable). However this is a ton of worker turns.

Best case (the AI doesn't tech Nationalism for us and we get the MoM too) Well then this plan would look brilliant.


A thought triggered by this thought...
Build MoM in a new city settled by the 10 forests spot in the hub.? That would only need 7 forest chops to build the 450 hammer wonder. If the build fails we basically convert forests to gold. Not a bad plan I don't think...