[BTS] SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[bcool]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Why can't Gems City build all or most of our Taoist Missionaries that are headed to the West Witches?

I suppose the Taoist Missionaries built in Stone City can spread Taoism to one of our nearby cities, right?

I don't see the advantage of switching MoM between cities. Actually I'd prefer to start MoM in Stone City immediately and not interrupt it to improve its chance of actually completing it.

Sun Tzu Wu

Gems can't build the missionaries we need since it can't have a significant number of hammers and still produce the great scientist.

I would like Gems to build a missionary and Stone to build missionaries since we want to convert all or most of Genghis's cities to Taoism. We want to be able to switch Genghis into Taoism and have him stay. And yes maybe we want to spread it to one or 2 of our own cities.

I think the missionaries are a higher priority than MoM. MoM is nice but not critical. The missionaries very well might be critical for our success in the UN vote.
Failure at the MoM is actually nearly as good as building it is. We are effectively building wealth with an additional 100% modifier. And we want that gold.

[bcool]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Of course I have read all discussion since the end of the last turn set. I have read every single post in this thread from post #1! Does that mean that I have the content of all those posts memorized and available within a fraction of a second? No. I hope you do not expect this of all players on the team.

I believe the team will run more smoothly if we help each other to win the SGOTM, learn a lot about Civilization IV Beyond the Sword and have fun doing it. I've been doing it since the game started. Are you? Or would you prefer to continue questioning your team mates abilities and/or commitment to the game?

Sincerely,

Sun Tzu Wu

When I'm planning a complex turn set like this one, I frequently will take written notes. I find it is easier to track the often multiple details and changing positions that the team supports. I made the list of issues above to help.

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I will begin to play the turn set Monday Evening.

I will be changing the detailed to reflect a much earlier start of the religious war. The Apostolic Palace was built 6 turns ago and the Resident Election was 5 turns ago, so we should see our first chance of a religious war resolution in 5 turns (t149). We will have this chance every ten turns from the initial Resident Election (not TAP completion as I stated before).

I will revise the detailed PPP to prepare for a religious war to start in 15t (t159). I'm not the only one who thought we starting a religious war much later at t169. The insistence on all military builds in Isengard is now very understandable.

Please don't switch assumptions in the middle of PPP plans without making a clear announce so everyone can follow the discussion, especially the one writing the ... PPP.

Sun Tzu Wu

[bcool]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

I still plan to build a Theatre here at 3 Hpt. Wealth at 3 Wpt and your not concerned about 11 Wpt unit maintenance and climbing; I don't buy it. But your against the slow building of a Theatre which could be useful in case we later decide that Globe Theatre in GP Farm wasn't a bad idea after all.

OK, I can go with slow building a Barracks in GP Farm. We will need it when we switch to Theocracy and draft from GP Farm, but the unhappiness will kill its growth and useful citizens because it is so close to happiness cap. It will become unhappy with the second draft. So, a Theatre would be needed anyway, because we want to run 100% research and thus can't use the culture slider for extra happiness. At least with a Theatre we get an extra +1 happiness with each 10% of the Culture slider.

So we are back to a Theatre in GP Farm. And frankly, we should be building a Theatre for extra +1 Dye in every city that is close to happiness cap. Culture (Theatre in this case) is what helps keep the populace happy. I'm aware of Incense and Fur being connected soon, but they only add +2 happiness with a Taoist "Cathedral" or Market and a draft causes 3 unhappiness.

Do you want to hold up the turn set over whether or not a Theatre gets slowly built (3 Hpt) in GP Farm?

Sun Tzu Wu

No I don't, go ahead and build the theater in GPFarm at 3 Hpt. I disagree with most of this post however, but I don't think it will be fruitful at this time to pursue this argument when we have bigger fish to fry.

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

I will begin to play the turn set Monday Evening.

I will be changing the detailed to reflect a much earlier start of the religious war. The Apostolic Palace was built 6 turns ago and the Resident Election was 5 turns ago, so we should see our first chance of a religious war resolution in 5 turns (t149). We will have this chance every ten turns from the initial Resident Election (not TAP completion as I stated before).

I will revise the detailed PPP to prepare for a religious war to start in 15t (t159). I'm not the only one who thought we starting a religious war much later at t169. The insistence on all military builds in Isengard is now very understandable.

Please don't switch assumptions in the middle of PPP plans without making a clear announce so everyone can follow the discussion, especially the one writing the ... PPP.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sounds great. I'm glad we all understand each other now.

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by bcool

Isengard

We don't need the horse archer in Isengard because 3 members of team (at least) have suggested that it is a bad idea to convert the southern witches to taoism. So the horse archer is not needed as an escort anymore.

The war elephants have some urgency for them. And the longbows have some urgency for them as well if we plan to start a holy war in 14 turns. I'm pretty sure we don't have time to build a temple and a library and met the goal of capturing the barbarian city and to delay Ragnar in any early holy war.

The temple's bonuses will go away when we tech Mass Media in about 33 turns. So the temple will produce at best 60 hammers for us. So it will return about as many hammers as it will take to build plus it will delay some important military builds. I think we can abandon the temple. And I really want to abandon the library as well. Isengard is the only city that can produce military units at half price, while we can build wealth in other cities to get the same benefit as a library in Isengard would give us.

The Taoist Missionaries are going to the West Witches now. Don't they still need a Horse Archer escort in neutral territory where a Barbarian unit might accost them? I'm leaving the Horse Archer build in; if its not really needed for Missionary escort, I'm sure we can send it with the War Elephants that will be build before it.

All plans for buildings are abandoned. After the two War Elephants and Horse Archer builds, Isengard will build Longbowmen until Engineering and then switch to Trebuchets.

Sun Tzu Wu

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

The Taoist Missionaries are going to the West Witches now. Don't they still need a Horse Archer escort in neutral territory where a Barbarian unit might accost them? I'm leaving the Horse Archer build in; if its not really needed for Missionary escort, I'm sure we can send it with the War Elephants that will be build before it.

The Western witches have Taoism access through Trojan Horse, so we can already draw them into wars. I think we are planning to target Genghis for conversion, because

• Liz has been spreading Taoism herself, and
• Genghis seems to have a personality that likes religion, so we'll hopefully profit most diplo-wise from him switching to our religion.

So I'm not sure we need a horse archer, because Liz has settled the middle of the hub, but it probably doesn't hurt to have one. A unit with Flanking 1 and Sentry would be useful for pre-airship tile visibility in the early stages of the religious war, and a horse archer from stables is ideal for that.

[bcool]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

The Taoist Missionaries are going to the West Witches now. Don't they still need a Horse Archer escort in neutral territory where a Barbarian unit might accost them? I'm leaving the Horse Archer build in; if its not really needed for Missionary escort, I'm sure we can send it with the War Elephants that will be build before it.

All plans for buildings are abandoned. After the two War Elephants and Horse Archer builds, Isengard will build Longbowmen until Engineering and then switch to Trebuchets.

Sun Tzu Wu

Since we are not doing the teleportation trick anymore with the chariot, the chariot could be used for this purpose. Saves on that maintenance you are worried about...

although I'm okay with the horse archer.

Plus the missionaries are going to Genghis I thought (a northern witch)

[bcool]

We could get engineering in 5 turns if we do the infiltration on the northern witches asap...

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by mabraham

Elephants and longbows will not go obsolete against East for quite a long time, e.g. Rifling. We hope to have won the game or killed East long before East can get about 7 more techs. So for practical purposes they will never go obsolete. Even if they do, we will need MPs for the cities we capture so our offensive units can keep moving.

War Elephants are not very effective against Pikemen and in 14t the East Witches will probably be able to upgrade Spearmen to Pikemen. Also, War Elephants can't effectively charge a fortified Spearmen with or without defensive terrain or Cultural Defense.

Longbowmen make very poor offensive units.

Originally Posted by mabraham

The longbows occupying Cimmerian do heaps for our offensive war - they stop Ragnar from bothering us and allow us to focus on Asoka. The wealth they cost is not significant - a few gold when our costs are around 100/turn. The GGs those longbows will earn on defence are multiplied by two from TGW. The fastest way to get the GG you covet is to DOW and take some action from Ragnar's puny stack and have some units built in Isengard snipe Asoka's frontier scouts, units and cities.

Yes, Cimmerian loaded with defensive Longbowmen (promotions must be defensive ones like City Garrison I) will bottle up the Eastern Witch behind it, especially if we can complete a Castle before the start of the war.

Originally Posted by mabraham

Three of us are keen for a war starting in 14 turns. Nobody has suggested more beakers buildings except for you (edit: recent support from shulec for library), and some thought from bcool of an observatory in Washington later on. It is a team game.

Nice of you to finally tell me today ...

I can count you and bcool; Who's the third person?

Sun Tzu Wu

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by bcool

We could get engineering in 5 turns if we do the infiltration on the northern witches asap...

Are you serious? You told me to remove "Great Spy moves in to infiltrate Northern Witches." Do you want that back in the PPP?

Sun Tzu Wu

[shulec]

Originally Posted by bcool

I would like Gems to build a missionary and Stone to build missionaries since we want to convert all or most of Genghis's cities to Taoism. We want to be able to switch Genghis into Taoism and have him stay. And yes maybe we want to spread it to one or 2 of our own cities.

I think the missionaries are a higher priority than MoM. MoM is nice but not critical. The missionaries very well might be critical for our success in the UN vote.
Failure at the MoM is actually nearly as good as building it is. We are effectively building wealth with an additional 100% modifier. And we want that gold.

We need to make sure that we don't spread our religion to Genghis' cites before we get the Holy War. We need to make sure we can win the vote. Elizabeth has quite a few votes. I did test it and unlike AP Religious Leader Diplo Victory votes, you can propose a Holy War when you have enough votes to do it on your own.

On T144, we have 142 votes and we need 132 votes for the holy war. We need to get Missionaries to Phants and Sheep before they go to Genghis.

Elizabeth has Toaism in all but two cities, both currently have populations of 2. There is a city that isn't visible that must have a pop of 9 and have Toaism based on the votes.

Elizabeth is also pleased with the East witches so we will get a You Declared War on Our Friend diplo hit.

[bcool]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Are you serious? You told me to remove "Great Spy moves in to infiltrate Northern Witches." Do you want that back in the PPP?

Sun Tzu Wu

I'm just pointing out possibilities. The issue about what to do with the Great Spy is still somewhat undecided.

I would move the Great spy towards the northern witches, but not infiltrate them. At the minimum we should wait to see what the western witches tech next before we decide to infiltrate the northern witches.

[bcool]

Originally Posted by shulec

We need to make sure that we don't spread our religion to Genghis' cites before we get the Holy War. We need to make sure we can win the vote. Elizabeth has quite a few votes. I did test it and unlike AP Religious Leader Diplo Victory votes, you can propose a Holy War when you have enough votes to do it on your own.

On T144, we have 142 votes and we need 132 votes for the holy war. We need to get Missionaries to Phants and Sheep before they go to Genghis.

Elizabeth has Toaism in all but two cities, both currently have populations of 2. There is a city that isn't visible that must have a pop of 9 and have Toaism based on the votes.

Elizabeth is also pleased with the East witches so we will get a You Declared War on Our Friend diplo hit.

It will take a while to get our missionaries to Genghis's lands, but you make good points. I think we want missionaries for Genghis and a few of our cities too. Our cities (at least a few of them) are going to grow, so we will pick up a few more votes.

So missionaries in stone and gems and (at least one from the capital) have become more important in my mind.

[bcool]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

War Elephants are not very effective against Pikemen and in 14t the East Witches will probably be able to upgrade Spearmen to Pikemen. Also, War Elephants can't effectively charge a fortified Spearmen with or without defensive terrain or Cultural Defense.

Longbowmen make very poor offensive units.



Yes, Cimmerian loaded with defensive Longbowmen (promotions must be defensive ones like City Garrison I) will bottle up the Eastern Witch behind it, especially if we can complete a Castle before the start of the war.



Nice of you to finally tell me today ...

I can count you and bcool; Who's the third person?

Sun Tzu Wu

Kaitzilla, the person who first proposed it. In this post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...postcount=2633

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by bcool

I believe that we have 3 competing goals that we need to do simultaneously. Balancing them is the key for a good game.

3 goals,
1)teching to Mass Media as quickly as possible
2) designing a military plan to take out the eastern witches to get enough population to win the vote
3) developing our diplomatic relationships with the north and the west, and making sure they don't love the south too much.

I think we are focusing too much on the 1st goal at the expense of the 2nd goal and 3rd goal.

We are fine with goal #3 in my opinion. I do agree that we need more effort for goal #2, and military builds in Isengard will help this TS.

I would add an obvious goals #4 and #5:

4) Locate The Wizard of Oz
5) Destroy The Wizard of Oz

Sun Tzu Wu

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by bcool

Kaitzilla, the person who first proposed it. In this post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...postcount=2633

No one else noticed or took it seriously.

Three posts and everyone on team should know its part of our future war plans?

It seems that only Kaitzilla, mabraham and you were aware of this war plan. How do you expect me to plan for it without better communication of it. There were no further posts from any of you expanding on the plan until very recently. Only today, did I find out that it was being taken seriously. Surely, you can't expect me to plan for something I thought was abandoned, assuming I even remembered the discussion of it which ended abruptly with post #2640.

Sun Tzu Wu

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

War Elephants are not very effective against Pikemen and in 14t the East Witches will probably be able to upgrade Spearmen to Pikemen. Also, War Elephants can't effectively charge a fortified Spearmen with or without defensive terrain or Cultural Defense.

Longbowmen make very poor offensive units.

So that is why we will include a crossbow or two and a maceman or two for this initial stack. I didn't mention this before because it was a side track to the main issue of starting to prepare for a war.

Before the gunpowder era, it is standard Civ4 military strategy to bring a mix of units so that you cannot be "hard countered". Some trebs plus a good mix of units will be fine to take a border city or two from Asoka before we decide how committed we really are to this war. AIs do not defend border cities strongly, because they do not value them highly yet.

Now that we've agreed to prepare for a war in about 14 turns is the time to consider stack composition. I expect we can build 2 WE and 4 LB in about the first 7 turns from Isengard. Thereafter we will have to consider 1-2 crossbows, 1-2 maces and a collection of trebs. The details will have to depend when we get CS and Engineering, so they will be up to you to decide, STW. Once the raid on the Liz barb city returns, I hope we can muster 3 war elephants, 1-2 crossbows 1-2 maces and several trebs so that we have a stack that can move safely in the open against Asoka's spoke city and capture it. One or two follow-up longbows to defend a city we capture and be its MP later will probably be wise. Workers to hook up the road, of course. We don't have to be ready to march at the time of the DOW - we just have to not be vulnerable and have some capacity to do some damage in case we will have a chance to get a GG.

[Kaitzilla]

Sorry I was busy today and could not comment much. Yes I support a holy war in 14 turns. Declare against the east on the 13th turn and then get the north and west in on the 14th turn. Delay the missionary spread to Ghenghis if needed to win the vote.

After going through all the trouble to turn Isengarde into a huge military powerhouse, I am against building much of anything else in it but military units. Yes military units cost maintenance, but consider the pros.

They conquer cities.
They keep cities from being conquered.
They chew up enemy if used effectively.

I would rather trade a resource for gpt and use it to support a chunk of army. A gaggle of 3/4xp longbows is a nightmare to take if they are in a castle. The AI is incapable of using a spy revolt, and bombarding the defenses down takes a lot of time on normal speed. If we crush them on the sea, hold them on the land, and scout well with spies, they aren't going to harm us. I routinely crank the espionage slider to 100% for a turn to get city vision on my enemy the turn before I start war just to get a good look.

The AI has some small chances to make us hurt if we play it wrong. If the East Witches quickly aquire Guilds, then knights will be a problem for us unless we have a war elephant or a few spears in our spoke barb city. Asoka could also cause trouble if he manages to spam caravels and get some lucky rolls against our galleons.

We are charismatic. That means we quickly gain promotions, have strong mounted and naval units with the frequent promotions, and have a larger than normal happy cap. I feel with the closed bordered, backwards, Emperor-Level East Witches, we should use our AP advantage before Taoism spreads too far to invoke a world war. Who will trade with them then? I predict they will go into war mode and their tech rate will screech to a halt. Our entire position is one giant choke point.



Basically, I see a whole lot of benefits to this war in 14 turns and very little downside. Our most vulnerable city is also the one capable of putting out ridiculous amounts of military. Fur City can also build a wall and stall long enough for a relief army to relieve it. Longbows are not obsolete until rifling. Elephants are not obsolete until rifling.

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

No one else noticed or took it seriously.

Neither did anyone post against it. We won't get every team member weighing into every discussion, but if there's support and no dissent...

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

Three posts and everyone on team should know its part of our future war plans?

There's five team members making regular contributions to PPP discussion when it isn't their turn set (bc, STW, shulec, Kaitzilla and me - the others are making valuable contributions as well, but not so often). When a significant fraction of the regular contributors support a transition to implementing a war that's been under discussion for the last 80 turns or so, that should get serious consideration.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

It seems that only Kaitzilla, mabraham and you were aware of this war plan. How do you expect me to plan for it without better communication of it. There were no further posts from any of you expanding on the plan until very recently. Only today, did I find out that it was being taken seriously. Surely, you can't expect me to plan for something I thought was abandoned, assuming I even remembered the discussion of it which ended abruptly with post #2640.

Communication in this forum is difficult. Your PPP was produced in stages, and there were quite a number of strategic issues with which the team was grappling. Having read the discussion, how did you expect us to know that you considered the "war in 14 turns" issue discarded despite the absence of discussion to that effect?

It's normally best for the team to discuss some general ideas and strategy, wait for the active player to produce a detailed PPP consistent with what they think is good and what others think is good, and then sort out some nuts and bolts. So when the three of us came to a general agreement, we could expect the active player to work those ideas into the PPP, or indicate why they were not being used. Unfortunately, neither happened, so we had a lot of confusion on all sides.