[BTS] SGOTM 14 - Maple Sporks

[nocho]

A case for rushing Oxford in RedDot. This is assuming that we get out of caste into slavery at the end of the GA (which we should imo). You got to realize that in slavery we can currently only hire 2 specs (scientists) from the library. We have no market yet for merchants. Oxford opens up 3 valuable scientist slots.

Having Oxford 12 turns earlier (the time it takes to build it getting all mines) means at least: 3 extra scienists hired 12 turns earlier at +150% multiplier: 3*12*6*2.5=540 beakers plus OU bonus for 4 base specs (2 GLib, 2 base hired) during 12 turns: 12*6*4*1=288 beakers, or a total of 828 beakers from specs, plus 12 turns of OU bonus for 60% of say 18 base commerce for another 12*18*.6=130 beakers, making a grand total of 960 beakers. Also extra great people points for 3 scientists during 12 turns at +250% multiplier (PHI, NE, parth; not counting GA nor pacifism): 3*12*3*3.5=378 GPP or about half a new great person. Besides it will mean that the market in comparison to building OU manually will also finish 12 turns sooner, which means those merchant slots will become available much sooner and a similar calculation can be made what those 2 earlier hired merchants will deliver.

We are also sure this way we have Oxford when Taj finishes, a GA obviously multiplies these effects.


As compared to rushing Taj, I don't really see a big difference in getting the GA 10 or 15 turns earlier. They'll be equally valuable whenever they occur. Earlier is good for the snowball, later cities are bigger so the effect as well. Main point is that the timing is not that critical imo. Of course Taj is more expensive than Oxford, but the 150 hammers saved is not worth nearly 1000 beakers+378 great people points.

I got to like the MoM lately, but again I'm not sure if 4 turns of GA extra really compensates. A next GA will take a while. We could try to build it (Not Kansas maybe) but with Calendar out already for a long time I think it could fall any moment.

On the GS, as advocated I do fancy the liberalism bulb, but an academy in RD is good too. In fact, maybe even subsequent GS could be in time for a liberalism bulb. I don't think it'll bulb the tech completely and we may still have to get MC/compass out of the way.

I agree that with cuirs we likely won't need to draft muskets. Maybe later rifles, but that will be much later indeed, so agree with sticking to bureau.

[Ororo]

Guys, I'm back. I'm trying to get myself back on track. Here are the major areas I'd like to comment on:

Universities
I agree with nocho that we should start building our 6 unis asap. My candidates are:
Washington, NK, HorseCopper (the obvious ones),
RedDot (OU city, I would probably 2-pop whip/3-pop whip here, the city can regrow pretty fast with all its excess food),
Gizeh (working 4 unimproved tiles = 120 if whipped off) and
NorthernBlues (there are 3 forests to speed things up plus we can afford to whip here - should be something like 2-pop whip Library into Uni, chop, chop, chop, 2-pop whip Uni)


Cuirassiers
Now, there are some interesting opportunities related to them.
First of all, we are CHAR. CHAR is a very interesting trait for Cuirassier wars because it allows you to buils Level 3 Cuirassiers out of the gate without having any settled GG. (Barracks+Stables+Vassalage+Theocracy = 9exp, and we only need 8 for level 3 units) However, this strategy too comes with a cost: we will have to give up Burreau, which is always a tough thing to do. Theo is imo pretty useful during the war, not only because of its XP boost but also for its medium upkeep (OR is High upkeep and Pacifism is not sustainable with a lot of units).
Secondly, we can upgrade some less advanced troops into Cuirassiers, which I've noticed you are already preparing for. Remember that the less advanced troops will keep their exp/promotions so we should only start building those troops once we have our Barracks/Stables/XP civics set up.
Lastly, since Cuirassiers are 2-move units, they can be used for pillaging and thus support our economy a little bit (because trust me, you sometimes even go negative gpt on 0% science during these wars). Cottages, Hamlets and especially Villages and Towns are your friends here Which reminds me, there is a Village 1E of Apache that we can pillage. Imo this city is not going to be the best cottage-site because we're going to start improving it very late.

MoM
I'd definitely advocate for building it since the fail gold is going to be as useful (if not even more) as the Wonder itself.

One minor things I've noticed: We can upgrade our Gold deal with GK from 3 gpt to 4gpt

[nocho]

Good to hear you're back Ororo! Do you want your original place back in the roster meaning you're on deck right now, or do we squeeze you back in right after Norvin ("sub"-on deck...)?

I do think you may well have a point on taking vassalage+theo (obviously need feudalism, but shouldn't be a problem to trade for it at some point). Probably we could do such a switch during or near the end of the Taj-GA. By then I guess it'll be full war-mode and then vassalage should outweigh bureau. As the empire expands bureau gets less important relatively and more costly (high civic upkeep as well iirc), besides with an enormous army the extra free upkeep from vassalage is also significant. And indeed 3 promo units out of the gate is very nice. The fourth promo with charismatic is at what, 13 exp? That'd mean only 2 settled GGs in HC for 4 promo units out of the gate.

Now that you mention the cottage at Apache, I proposed a filler city like 3N of the cap (can't recall exact position now) for cottages and the Oasis (EDIT: 1S of that Oasis). Should give ROI soon. What do you say? Not a necessity, but probably worth it, I'd say.

[Ororo]

I would prefer "sub"-on deck but I'm fine with either.
That filler sounds like a great idea! It uses 2 hills, an oasis and a lot of riverside tiles that wouldn't have been used otherwise.

[DwarfSleepy]

Hi guys, sorry for a few days of silence. I have time to summarise the discussion into a new ppp tomorrow evening.

[Norvin_Green]

Good to hear from you DS.

I like nocho's filler town too plus Ororo's 9xp cuirs!

[Alamankarazieff]

Sorry, I overestimated my free time... I'll respectfully and regretfully resign, I just can't commit seriously enough.

Have fun and good luck !

[nocho]

Originally Posted by Alamankarazieff

Sorry, I overestimated my free time... I'll respectfully and regretfully resign, I just can't commit seriously enough.

Have fun and good luck !

That's unfortunate. Well, at least thanks for dropping by and giving notice and of course thanks for the time invested in the beginning. Good luck and if somehow your time issues are resolved feel free to drop by again.

[sturick]

Hello again my fellow civvers and Sporks!

I apologizing for not commenting more but I have found that when I don't look at the save I don't really have very helpful things to say. So I haven't been saying anything. But I have been following along. And I actually have the save up today so here we go!

The dyes by JumboDye aren't hooked yet. Neither on the pigs by northern blues. We aren't hurting for happy or health. But won't that potentially give us better trade routes in our cities?

I would academy in Red Dot with the next GS coming in 5 turns knowing that another GS is on its way in about 12-14 turns that can bulb Lib. Besides we have to set up our tech tree in order to bulb Lib and that will take some time. If we tech MC we may be able to swing a trade with it for Compass.

Speaking of RedDot, I would agree with nocho's idea to use the GE to rush build Oxford in Red Dot. It would take 11-12 turns to build it naturally. I suppose fewer turns with well-timed whips from infra such as courthouses and unis. But this would also come at the cost of losing specs for a period of time. Taj is in no danger and the GA turns will be helpful for extra GPP generation down the road.

If you are going to Globe in the future, I would put the Globe in Sushi Corner. It isn't really much of a city as it stands. Just chain some farms from Washingtons lake and there you go. Plus, it should be able to hire a spec or two for extra beakers from time to time.

Good luck on the set DS and know I am still watching!

[DwarfSleepy]

Here it goes:

Diplo:

• OB with west witches
• Renegotiate Gold deal with GK from 3gpt to 4gpt

War:

• Keep on defensive. Focus on dominance first
• Apache: move catapult from HC to Apache (7t) to suicide/inflict collateral damage, follow up with Ele/Sword (coming from HC and Gizeh)

Great Engineer: Keep for rushing Oxford in RedDot
Great Scientist: settle in RedDot

The 6 universities needed for OU in the following cities:

• Washington
• NotKansas
• Gizeh
• CrabMarble
• RedDot
• HorseCopper

City builds:

• NK: Uni, then Galley(2t), then Axe
• Wash: Uni, then Axe(1t), then Spear(1t)
• HC: Lib, then Uni, then units (WE/Cat/Axe alternate for 1unit/turn builds )
• Gizeh: finish Sword(1t), then Uni
• Northern Blues: finish LH(3t), then Galley
• RedDot: switch to Uni, fire 2scie after end of GA or now?
• CrabMarble: switch market to Uni
• SushiCorner: finish Granary (with Whip) then Galley
• JumboDye: finish Granary (with whip) then WB

Where/When do we want to slot in a settler for the fillertown?
I also advocate building MoM, but where/when?
All the barracks and stables are important, but after my turnset I guess



Tech:

• finish Nationalism
• look for trades for MC & compass
• Research MC or Compass, or lib (part bulb)
• !!Avoid Machinery!!

Workers: improve land, chop into uni's, build road into spoke


On level 3 cuirs: one of those promos might be the March promotion, to keep an advance going. A pity Toto is no more: he would have made a nice super-medic combined with a GG.


Idea would be to build precursors (Ele's & Horsies), and upgrade. How to get the money? Getting a GM for a trade mission might take very long!)

[pigswill]

@ Alamankarazieff: sorry you're pulling out, thanks for letting us know, civ really can be the thief of time.

Re plan. sounds good overall. Minor quibbles. I wouldn't bother building axes/swords etc, better to build stables and eles. It might also be worth thinking about chain irrigation, particularly grain resources.

[Sengir]

Mostly agree, some points:
- I think the GS should build an Academy in RedDot instead of settling it.
- NK can build the MoM after Uni; SushiCorner can be whipped enough to get out enough galleys before we really need them.
- If the witches don't follow up with more units I think we can start building roads even at war, as long as we have some cover for the workers.
- March needs C3 or MedicI, and I'd rather not spent the second promo on MedicI, but as the fourth promo it makes a lot of sense.
- Getting gold for upgrades: We can shut of research for a couple of turns after getting Cuirs online; that should generate some quick gold. We can also run a lot of merchants during the Taj Golden Age, though I don't think that's the best plan.
- Do we need the additional units for defense/taking Apache? Otherwise we're better of building Barracks/Stables/WE's
- I'd fire the RedDot scientists after the GA. We a 100% production bonus on Uni's so we need only 20 hammers for a three pop whip; we're making 5hpt right now, so we'll have them before the end of the GA. If we want to do a 2pop whip, we'd need 60h more (30 effectively because of the bonus). Working the 2 grass hills + gold + city tile + Wheat (RedDot can use it better at this point than NotKansas) gives us 10hpt > three turns extra after the GA.

2pop vs 3pop
We'll need 40 more for growing to size 12 for a total of 42, we won't make that before we can 2pop whip the Uni, but that's not a problem.
After a 2pop-whip we'll be at size 9, needing 38 food to grow to size 10,
From 10 to 11 is 40, but with granary we'll have 19 in the basket already, so 21 more is needed.
From 11 to 12 is 42 > 22 needed.
From 12 to 13 is 44 > 23 needed
From 13 to 14 is 46 > 24 needed but I think we should stop just before growing, to 23 needed or a bit less.
So we need 38 + 21 +22+23+23 = 127 food to get to where we want when we hit a GA
Nat + building Taj will take 21/22 turns; we have 2food in the bin, so we need (127-2)/21 = about +6fpt
If we do a three-pop-whip we need 36+20 + 21 +22+23+23 = 127 >> (147-2)/21 = +7fpt
If we give the Wheat to RedDot, that shouldn't be a problem (we can hit 11fpt while we still hire two scientist with the Wheat). We might even chose to continue growing past 13 to work some extra tiles. Even without the Wheat we can grow back in time, but I think NK is better of with the Gold tile instead (only after the Uni is done though).

[nocho]

Plan has a solid base, but I also have some things to add/remind.

- You don't mention civics, but presumably 1 turn before end of GA we switch back to slavery/OR?
- Both with OR and later Theo it'll be worth it to spread judaism. With OR we don't need monasteries for that. So I'd get some jew missionaries out, like from Washington/NK after their unis, but maybe before stables.
- I do agree on priority for those buildings though (stables/raxes) over units we don't need right away for defence or getting the barb city out.
- Washington should start on Taj as soon as nationalism is in (OR obviously speeds it up ).
- Definitely academy with GS, not settling!
- I'd whip RD's university when the other last uni is whippable. Likely the one in CrabMarble will take longest, so when you can whip that one, I'd whip the RD one too. Next turn rush Oxford. Remember to take mine+quarry in CrabMarble.
- Instead of the galley in NorthernBlues, after the LH I'd build a settler there for the filler city.
- I'd really do the "build culture+hire artist"-thing for 1 turn in JumboDye, which I mentioned. Getting the fish back immediately will give fastest growth, earlier whipping etc.
- If we can't do MoM anywhere (for fail cash), I won't cry over it. I think other things are higher priority.
- I think we might need some more workers. We'll have filler city to cottage, Apache to improve (might get a free worker from there though) and there's still more stuff to do (northern cities, chain irrigation). NorthernBlues might do some workers after the settler.
- If you can do a favourable trade for MC soon of course you're free to squeeze in forges in hammer-strong cities.

Good luck!

[DwarfSleepy]

Good additions/reminders from everyone. I'll take these into account. I'll play tonight.

Just to make sure: we are going to keep Apache, aren't we?

[nocho]

Yeah, Apache is a keeper.

[Sengir]

Keep Apache indeed. Before we need a worker for the filler city, we need a settler for it

[nocho]

^ That's why I proposed building a settler in NorthernBlues.

[DwarfSleepy]

don't worry guys, it's all factored in, will start playing now

[DwarfSleepy]

I need advice:



Asoka is coming with a stack (1HA, 2SW, 3CAT, 1Ax, 3chariot, 1spear, pretty good mix!), it's 8 turns away from HC.

Since HC is not the bottle neck for a uni (it does it in 3turns now in GA), I would build stables, cats, 1spear and ele's here until 3-4turns before the slowest uni will finish. Do I draw back some troops from the Apache attack?

And since I have your attention: I think we should not pillage the barb village/cottage, it will fit into filler-city's strategy of working cottages.

I'll continue if I have enough opinions. Might not be tonight though...

[nocho]

I'm not sure what we have in HC now, but if we have 8 turns, I'd guess you can finish uni and still build 5 WEs (be it without stable) which should be more than enough to repel those units assuming we still have another say 4 defenders there.