[BTS] SGOTM 14 - Fifth Element

AlanH · Aug 03, 2011, 03:29 PM

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 14 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You can find the Game Details in the first post of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, I shall post them in that thread, and edit that post.

Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

Good luck, and remember rule #1 - ENJOY THE GAME!

BLubmuz · Aug 03, 2011, 07:28 PM

Index of Fifth Element turnset reports for SGotM14:
The linked post has a link to the thread which opens the entire page.

SGotMs results page

Game start: 2011/08/10 - Game end: 2011/12/10

HoF best dates BTS, normal speed, standard map: Culture 1530 AD (LowtherCastle) Space 1685 (bcool) other VCs are meaningless, given the constraints of this game and the map set up. We know LC, bcool less. Both are strong, but not top.

01- t000-034 08/24 Unclethrill (WT played 00 to 01, does not count) Hunting, AH, mining, writing in
02- t034-069 08/25 Blubmuz Oracle for CS in on turn 69. Wheel, Myst, Medi, Masonry, PH, CoL, Math (CS)
03- t069-078 09/20 PnpDredd
04- t078-097 10/03 MeowZeDung
05- t097-110 10/09 and t110-121 10/11 Beestar
06- t121

BLubmuz · Aug 03, 2011, 07:29 PM

Roster:

Unclethrill - UP
Blubmuz - on deck
PnpDredd
MeowZeDung
Beestar - resting

Standby: WithTea (until he recovers)
Lurkers:

Best HoF date: No fixed VC this time!

TS 03 short plan: (save turn 80?)

Builds:
Washington:
NY:
Research:
Alphabet?

Strategy Key Points:

Oracle for CS before turn 72 - Done, by turn 69!

BLubmuz · Aug 03, 2011, 07:29 PM

1) never turn on any of the city automations. If this is necessary, inform the team.
2) never use automated workers.
3) never promote a unit right out of barracks: the first promotion will be given at the front. Naval and air units are promoted to C1.
of course if a city is under siege, CG1 will be given, or C1 if not an archer/GP
4) never give "go to" orders which can go over your last turn. Better: never give "go to" orders for multiple turns if possible.
5) Right before actually play, please check all the cities and the units in the field.
if a city grew on the saved turn, it's to next player assign tiles and specialists - or verify if those accomplishes the TS targets.
6) Sometimes is not possible to have a clear majority on a decision. In case of a tie, the team-leader decides and his decision is definitive.
7) 24/96 rule:
7a) the player who's "up" must submit a "got it" after max 24 hours from the posted save,
7b) then post a PPP in 24 h.
7c1) Wait 24 hours to see any comment/proposal on the PPP
7c2) Post the eventual variations on the proposed PPP, to ensure the other Members he understood their comments
7d) play and submit within next 24 h.
This will be applied if there's no need to deeply discuss a TS.
In case a player can't play in that given time, it will be swapped with the one "on deck".
Better would be if he informs the team on his impossibility to play in the given time.

Fifth Element's Team Leader is Blubmuz!

Please also refer to

This thread (Viewing Threads)
and This other thread (Reference Thread)
for less experienced XotM players also:
Please Read: Welcome to the C-IV GOTM
and List of allowed & disallowed exploits & strategies. and this one for a new BANNED Exploit

BLubmuz · Aug 03, 2011, 07:30 PM

Since it's long time we're playing those SGs, i'd like to remember the basic settings and the people playing in the Team.

Spoiler:

SG 01 - Vanilla 1.61 - 2006/05 to 2006/08 Win - 12th out of 19

Spoiler:

SG 02 - Vanilla 1.61 - 2006/08 to 2006/11 Win - 10th out of 22

Spoiler:

SG 03 - Vanilla 1.61 - 2006/11 to 2007/03 Loss - Wooden Spoon for Warlords (the competition was also for Vanilla)

Spoiler:

SG 04 - Warlords 2.08 - 2007/02 to 2007/07 Loss (loss was the condition, but we loss to the wrong AI)

Spoiler:

SG 05 - Vanilla 1.74.SGOTM5 - 2007/07 to 2007/10 Win - 10th out of 15

Spoiler:

SG 06 - Warlords 2.13 - 2007/12 to 2008/04 Win - 10th out of 15

Spoiler:

SG 07 - Vanilla 1.74.002 - 2008/04 to 2008/09 Win - 10th out of 12

Spoiler:

SG 08 - BtS 3.17.001 - 2008/09 to 2009/01 Win - 7th out of 14

Spoiler:

SG 09 - BtS 3.17.001 - 2009/03 to 2009/07 Win - 8th out of 15

Spoiler:

SG 10 - BtS 3.19.001 - 2009/08 to 2009/12 Win - 6th out of 15

Spoiler:

SG 11 - BtS 3.19.001 - 2010/04 to 2010/08 Win - 7th out of 13

Spoiler:

SG 12 - BtS 3.19.001 - 2010/09 to 2011/01 Win - 3rd out of 10 Bronze Medal!

Spoiler:

SG 13 - BtS 3.19.001 - 2011/02 to 2011/06 Win - 8th out of 11

Spoiler:

SG 14 - BtS 3.19.001 - 2011/07 in progress

Spoiler:

BLubmuz · Aug 03, 2011, 07:30 PM

end of the reserved

unclethrill · Aug 04, 2011, 03:05 AM

First. Well not really.!

So I'm checking in. Ill take a good look at the screenshot and description tonight and see if I can get a test game built.

Looking forward to a new SGOTM and getting to know our new members. Welcome to the team and welcome back all our returning teammates

pnp_dredd · Aug 04, 2011, 03:32 AM

Hi all, just checking in. I'll post more thoughts at some stage but just a short post here as I've been a full-time stay-at-home dad (of 2yo and 4yo boys) for 3 weeks now and I'm exhausted. When I'm not on parental leave, I'm a scientist by trade, I used to conduct human health risk assessments for pesticides (i.e. toxicology) and I'm about to move into environmental risk assessments for new GM crops (i.e. Greenpeace's worst enemy if I approve anything). I'm 34 y.o. and live in Australia, so I tend to check-in and post while most of the world is asleep. (Go Cadel!) Also, I'm a little drunk at the moment (blended Scotch is my current poison).

It's an interesting scenario. Last game was won by pure early conquest. That seems unlikely this time, but who knows? We'll need to aggressively build an empire, and both specialists and Oxford Uni synergise with our traits. Exploration will be a must. If there are nearby civs, we'll probably want to take them out early, or choke them, so we can expand into the available space and utilize any nice capital spots. [It's Normal speed, so military solutions are slightly less attractive, but still strong.]

From a meta-gaming position, it's likely that the Wizard is an advanced unit (modern armour? air unit? naval unit?), but who knows? he could be the leader of a civilization, or just an Executive or Great Artist. We'll need to make sure that we gather all the available info from the turn 0 save (logs, demographics, what else?). Maybe the Wizard is a barbarian unit or even barb civilisation?

The starting position in interesting. It's likely that there is a resource on the unforrested tile 1W of the settler. There's a plains hill but with the majority of it's tiles fogged it's a risk, when there are so many food bonuses, and means no wet corn. Another settling option is 2E or 1E1SE of the settler, to be seaside (which is good), and gain clams (which aren't great). I guess warrior SE will reveal more tiles, although I'm unsure whether that will give any further information. That wet corn is the best tile we could wish for. Unless we get fish then worker first and irrigate the corn will be a strong opening. The oasis is also a good tile to work early in the game, and doesn't require worker turns. With a "mystery" map, testing is difficult, although we should have a test game to work out worker moves and build orders. The Wonder dates should be fairly standard (although with heavy modification, who knows?).

We are essentially Lincoln, so we start with Fishing and Agriculture. We are Philosophical and Charismatic, so have:

Great People birth rate increased 100 percent. (!)
Double production speed of University.

+1 happiness per city. (!)
-25% XP needed for unit promotions.
+1 happiness from Monument and Broadcast Tower.

These a good traits. Writing, and an early Academy in the capital, is strong. Extra happiness is good all around. We'll need workers to improve food resources, BW for whipping, and lots of cities with healthy populations.

Our unique building is the Mall (replaces Supermarket, required Refrigeration), and our unit is the Navy Seal, (replaces Marine, requires Industrialism and Rifling). These are both so late that the game will have been decided by that stage. It's possible that the Wizard is a Machine Gun fortified on a single-tile island, in which case Marines may be useful, but we can deal with that on turn 150 or whatever.

neilmeister · Aug 04, 2011, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnp_dredd

... dad (of 2yo and 4yo) ... I'm 34 y.o. ... live in Canberra Australia ... Go Cadel! ... blended Scotch is my current poison.
.

Are you sure that you are not me?

pnp_dredd · Aug 04, 2011, 04:05 AM

clearly not, I'm a junkie, not a sniffer!

I spent a good chunk of today at Kid City in Mitchell, and yesterday took both boys out to the bike tracks at Stromlo. The weather has been awesome these last few days!

[ok, sorry, returning to your regular scheduled thread in 3, 2, 1...]

MeowZeDung · Aug 04, 2011, 08:57 AM

Hey hey! Checking in. I second Unclethrill in saying I'm excited about the game and getting to know everyone! Being a new addition to FE I just want to say a)thanks for having me! and b)don't hesitate to be blunt and tell me if I'm not handling something according to FE standards.

@pnp_dredd I agree with your analysis of the start and our leader/traits.

1W would be tempting if it wasn't for the possibility of copper/iron/horses there. Unless there is fish I don't think going east is a good move as we lose a plains hill in an already hammer poor capital. However Warrior 1E or 1SE may show us something worthwhile. If there's fish we could make our first city a sweet phi GP farm and move the capital elsewhere.

However, SiP gives us a sweet research capital: at least 10 cottage tiles (possibly 11 depending on the plains 1W of settler) 3 of which are riverside grassland. The spices, and the oasis are also decent commerce tiles. I just don't like that our only substantial hammers come from 2ph (8h -4f) a plains cow (3h +1f) and a grassland hill (3h -1f). I guess bureau and a forge will compensate a bit, as well as the potential resource 1W, but in the end I think this is far and away a research city.

One intriguing possibility is moving the warrior 1N to the grass hill to see whats North of the Oasis. If we settle 1N we may make this an even more powerful commerce/science city. 1N gets us 2 unknown riverside tiles (though I can't tell without being able to zoom it looks like a forested grassland a forested plains and a plains hill?) and a riverside sheep. The only real loss is the plains cow and the added worker turns of moving 1 tile at a time to get to the corn and then back across to the sheep. However it also allows us to work the oasis ASAP which may be worth losing a turn moving the Settler.

I think AH->Mining->BW->Wheel is the way to go here, unless of course we move to the coast for seafood. At first glance what makes sense to me as far as worker turns if we SiP is farm corn->pasture cows->chop out a settler with the forests 1S and 1SW of the capital->mine riverside PH (or improve special tile 1W if it turns out to be copper/horses)->road cow/corn/horse or copper/second city.

Another intriguing possibility with a chm leader is Stonehenge for the +1happy and border pops in each city. We have a lot of forests in the BFC for chopping, so it may be viable even without stone. GPP pollution wouldn't be that bad since an early GA from a prophet would be welcome and we probably will get scientists rolling not long after that whether in the capital or a GP farm.

I agree that Conquest and Domination may not be the best options since there are No Vassals and it's normal speed. However, we want to keep a big stick handy because of the random personalities. Nothing quite like a backstabbing Ghandi or a Zealot Mansa

I don't know much about UN victories, so I can't really voice an opinion about that. Space seems like it would put us at a late finish date although cheap universities and an early Oxford might make it viable. Culture is very doable, especially if we can find nearby Marble/Stone for 2nd/3rd city as well as a good GP site. Lincoln's not the best cultural leader, but phi certainly makes it a strong possibility.

Ok, that's my novel. I hope it adds to the discussion instead of detracting from it

BLubmuz · Aug 04, 2011, 10:39 AM

Cheking in.
I was awake in an impossible hour tonight, i've seen the threads are open so i reserved 5 posts in record time.

Welcome to our new mates and welcome back to anyone already known.

To start immediately with some thought about this game, i don't know if we can benefit from our Philo trait for unis.
As any competition demonstrated, the military option is always the fastest.
I hope that neilmeister did something to avoid this, so this time at least Astro should be required. Nonetheless, even with Astro, the military option is always the fastest.

Then, if the WoZ is a very advanced unit you need at least a good bunch of Industrial age units to kill him. I remember what 14 warriors or so did to a MA in SG12: no more than some scratch in the paint. Maces or knights can't to much more. You need no less than cannons and rifles, better infantry to do something.

Starting position? Let me think better.

BLubmuz · Aug 04, 2011, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeowZeDung

Hey hey! Checking in. I second Unclethrill in saying I'm excited about the game and getting to know everyone! Being a new addition to FE I just want to say a)thanks for having me! and b)don't hesitate to be blunt and tell me if I'm not handling something according to FE standards.

Which are pretty low.
But don't worry, anyone of us is ready to politely submerge anyone else with tons of sh*t if he made something really bad.

welcome in!

Thought for the start later. Have to go now. And have to think too.

BLubmuz · Aug 04, 2011, 12:10 PM

I'm posting looking at the screenie.

First, let's see what we lose by SiP:
- surely one forest
- maybe the chance to settle a decent coastal city 1E of the oasis and with what seems to be 2 hills N of it.
- the sheeps
and we gain (?) the oasis

then, what we can lose by settling 1W:
- a possible resource (copper, iron, horses?) since it's the only visible unforested tile.
- the oasis
but we gain the sheep

both the locations:
- are riverside,
- are not coastal,
- can be settled on turn 0

But we have to see what the warrior reveals moving 1N or 1NE

that plains 1E of the oasis can be interesting, provided the warrior reveals something interesting for a Capital.
We need to lose 1 turn if we decide it's worth settle there, thus it has to be really worth, being in normal speed.

I think UT is in duty to run one of his simulations.

Then, some more thoughts:
- SH is surely very handy, being Char.
- Cottages in Capital, then food to gain on the Philo trait.
- I see difficult this time too a CS sling. better aim to MC, like in SG13, IMHO.

unclethrill · Aug 04, 2011, 03:44 PM

Okay so didn't get to finish the test game but I am working on it. I'll continue to work on it tomorrow but it is "date night" so I'm pretty sure I won't be finished completely tomorrow. As soon as it's usable I'll post it.

pnp_dredd · Aug 06, 2011, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeowZeDung

One intriguing possibility is moving the warrior 1N to the grass hill to see whats North of the Oasis. If we settle 1N we may make this an even more powerful commerce/science city. 1N gets us 2 unknown riverside tiles (though I can't tell without being able to zoom it looks like a forested grassland a forested plains and a plains hill?) and a riverside sheep. The only real loss is the plains cow and the added worker turns of moving 1 tile at a time to get to the corn and then back across to the sheep. However it also allows us to work the oasis ASAP which may be worth losing a turn moving the Settler.

This is definitely an option. Fog-gazing in the real save may be of assistance. Warrior 1 NE may reveal both any additional coastal seafood and what's north of the oasis? We'd have to check that. If there is another sea-food then I'd push heavily for a coastal capital. If nothing else an early exploring workboat will pay huge dividends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeowZeDung

Another intriguing possibility with a chm leader is Stonehenge for the +1happy and border pops in each city. We have a lot of forests in the BFC for chopping, so it may be viable even without stone. GPP pollution wouldn't be that bad since an early GA from a prophet would be welcome and we probably will get scientists rolling not long after that whether in the capital or a GP farm.

We need to carefully consider the opportunity cost of each wonder. FE has in the past been guilty of pursuing wonders, rather than pursuing the victory condition. +1 happy only matters for each city which is at it's happy cap already, and with a charasmatic leader happiness is pretty well sorted to size 6. Well need to decide whether it's better to build settlers with those hammers? how about axes? We'll need a little more info before making that decision (how close are our neighbours? do we have gold/silver/gems/furs nearby in good locations?)

also we could use those hammers for Oracle:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLubmuz

- I see difficult this time too a CS sling. better aim to MC, like in SG13, IMHO.

I disagree with this and think that we should make a CS sling a top priority. It was the strategy used by all of the top teams last time. MC has less advantages on this less-watery map. Particularly with a cottage-heavy capital, early bureaucracy wins, particularly with an early Academy too. The benefits are enormous, although there is of course some risk involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLubmuz

Then, if the WoZ is a very advanced unit you need at least a good bunch of Industrial age units to kill him. I remember what 14 warriors or so did to a MA in SG12: no more than some scratch in the paint. Maces or knights can't to much more. You need no less than cannons and rifles, better infantry to do something.

I note that if this is the case, and we have a strong research base, that a Diplomatic victory isn't far away once we have cannons, particularly with good use of GScis and Liberalism.

MeowZeDung · Aug 06, 2011, 07:18 AM

I also think MC wouldn't be the best tech to take with the oracle. We aren't ind so we don't get to take advantage of early cheap forges, and early bureau is going to boost our research enough that we could self tech MC if need be. Unless we do go for a coastal capital and The Colossus is too good to pass up I agree with pnp_dredd that CS is the way to go with the oracle.

Edit: as I think of it, even if we end up settling for CoL from the Oracle I feel like we would be in a better position. Early CS with a phi/chm leader could mean a strong specialist economy, especially if we find 2-3 food rich cities.

unclethrill · Aug 06, 2011, 03:55 PM

Okay here is my first (Well actually 4th) attempt at a test game.

I think I have the start pretty close. I got all the settings that I could glean from the first post.

If you see a blatant issue feel free to fix it in WB and repost but please roll the rev number if you do so that we can be sure we are testing with the most current revision.

beestar · Aug 06, 2011, 07:01 PM

Hi gang, checking in. No detailed thoughts at all about the game yet.

We should think carefully about the high level goals and strategy - e.g. when to war in SGOTM13 (wait for the tech advantage with trebuchets, or start the warpath with Axes), e.g. how to scrub fallout in SGOTM12 (violently, by conquering the other AIs), etc.

I think the evidence of the last few SGOTMs has been clear: micro helps a lot, but having the right grand strategy is a 30-turn difference. Let's make sure we spend some time thinking this part through.

------------

Oh, my bio - Cambridge UK engineer, working for a technology consultancy on energy and cleantech. (Got a product whose energy efficiency you need to be improved?) No kids, but got a girlfriend who hates the timesuck that is Civ

unclethrill · Aug 07, 2011, 02:00 AM

I have to agree with dredd and beestar that the major downfall of FE is wonder mania. The best we did was when we stayed away from almost all wonders.
Oracle is a must and if we want to win then we need to push the limits and get CS with it. If we fail to get it then it is likely that others will fail that path too.
We need early exploring. If there is anyone anywhere close we n eed to expand by force. The last game was won because they took a chance and rolled axes while we waited for MM ( and thought we were going too early with them).
Keys to victory:
1. Early expansion. Preferably by force
2. Minimal wonders. Only ones that are absolutely necessary.
3. Early micromanagement. Late micromanagement. Lots of micromanagement. . . .
4. Full participation. We may not each be the best players here but together we have a lot of knowledge to share. If you see somethin g that looks or sounds wrong speak up.
5. No rogue play. We have to make decisions as a team. If there is a tie then Blubmuz can break the tie but we need majority decisions.

Aug 03, 2011, 07:28 PM	#2
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,477	Index of Turnsets for SG14 Index of Fifth Element turnset reports for SGotM14: The linked post has a link to the thread which opens the entire page. SGotMs results page Game start: 2011/08/10 - Game end: 2011/12/10 HoF best dates BTS, normal speed, standard map: Culture 1530 AD (LowtherCastle) Space 1685 (bcool) other VCs are meaningless, given the constraints of this game and the map set up. We know LC, bcool less. Both are strong, but not top. 01- t000-034 08/24 Unclethrill (WT played 00 to 01, does not count) Hunting, AH, mining, writing in 02- t034-069 08/25 Blubmuz Oracle for CS in on turn 69. Wheel, Myst, Medi, Masonry, PH, CoL, Math (CS) 03- t069-078 09/20 PnpDredd 04- t078-097 10/03 MeowZeDung 05- t097-110 10/09 and t110-121 10/11 Beestar 06- t121 __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02 Last edited by BLubmuz; Oct 31, 2011 at 04:23 PM. Reason: keep it updated

Aug 03, 2011, 07:29 PM	#3
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,477	Roster, Strategy and Key points planned Roster: Unclethrill - UP Blubmuz - on deck PnpDredd MeowZeDung Beestar - resting Standby: WithTea (until he recovers) Lurkers: Best HoF date: No fixed VC this time! TS 03 short plan: (save turn 80?) Builds: Washington: NY: Research: Alphabet? Strategy Key Points: Oracle for CS before turn 72 - Done, by turn 69! __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02 Last edited by BLubmuz; Oct 26, 2011 at 11:32 AM. Reason: keep it updated

Aug 03, 2011, 07:29 PM	#4
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,477	Fifth Element playing rules 1) never turn on any of the city automations. If this is necessary, inform the team. 2) never use automated workers. 3) never promote a unit right out of barracks: the first promotion will be given at the front. Naval and air units are promoted to C1. of course if a city is under siege, CG1 will be given, or C1 if not an archer/GP 4) never give "go to" orders which can go over your last turn. Better: never give "go to" orders for multiple turns if possible. 5) Right before actually play, please check all the cities and the units in the field. if a city grew on the saved turn, it's to next player assign tiles and specialists - or verify if those accomplishes the TS targets. 6) Sometimes is not possible to have a clear majority on a decision. In case of a tie, the team-leader decides and his decision is definitive. 7) 24/96 rule: 7a) the player who's "up" must submit a "got it" after max 24 hours from the posted save, 7b) then post a PPP in 24 h. 7c1) Wait 24 hours to see any comment/proposal on the PPP 7c2) Post the eventual variations on the proposed PPP, to ensure the other Members he understood their comments 7d) play and submit within next 24 h. This will be applied if there's no need to deeply discuss a TS. In case a player can't play in that given time, it will be swapped with the one "on deck". Better would be if he informs the team on his impossibility to play in the given time. Fifth Element's Team Leader is Blubmuz! Please also refer to This thread (Viewing Threads) and This other thread (Reference Thread) for less experienced XotM players also: Please Read: Welcome to the C-IV GOTM and List of allowed & disallowed exploits & strategies. and this one for a new BANNED Exploit __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02 Last edited by BLubmuz; Aug 10, 2011 at 07:33 AM.

Aug 03, 2011, 07:30 PM	#5
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,477	Since it's long time we're playing those SGs, i'd like to remember the basic settings and the people playing in the Team. Spoiler: SG 01 - Vanilla 1.61 - 2006/05 to 2006/08 Win - 12th out of 19 Spoiler: Playable Civ - Hapshepsut of Egypt World size - Standard Difficulty - Monarch Landform - Mystery Game Speed - Epic Permanent Alliances are turned on (can form permanent alliances after either communism or fascism is researched) Space race is disabled. Egypt is locked into war with Huayna Capac of the Incas. Egypt is locked into peace with an unknown civilization. Roster: BrianS Dolphan Doom Train Goodenuf Groin_Apologist gskur Merum Perugia SG 02 - Vanilla 1.61 - 2006/08 to 2006/11 Win - 10th out of 22 Spoiler: Playable Civ - Tokugawa of Japan World size - Standard Difficulty - Monarch Landform - Fractal, hand modified Game Speed - Epic AI Aggression - YES! Barbarians - Raging!! Roster: Perugia BLubmuz BrianS Doom Train Merum Sweetacshon SG 03 - Vanilla 1.61 - 2006/11 to 2007/03 Loss - Wooden Spoon for Warlords (the competition was also for Vanilla) Spoiler: Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61 World size - Standard Difficulty - Monarch Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical Game Speed - Epic AI Aggression - Aggressive Barbarians - Standard Permanent Alliances Enabled No City Razing Roster: Blumbmuz BrianS Civicide Doom Train Merum Sweetacshon SG 04 - Warlords 2.08 - 2007/02 to 2007/07 Loss (loss was the condition, but we loss to the wrong AI) Spoiler: Playable Leader/Civ - Ragnar of The Vikings Rivals - 7 civs including Gandhi (who is locked in war with Ragnar) World size - Standard Difficulty - Monarch Landform - Fractal, cylindrical, medium sea level, temperate Game Speed - Epic Diplomatic Victory Disabled All other settings are defaults Roster: Blubmuz BrianS Civicide Doom Train Merum Sansman Sweetacshon SG 05 - Vanilla 1.74.SGOTM5 - 2007/07 to 2007/10 Win - 10th out of 15 Spoiler: Playable Leader/Civ - Temujin of Mongolia Rivals - 7: China, Japan, India, Arabia, Spain, Persia and Greece World size - Standard Difficulty - Monarch Landform - Special, sort of a fractal archipelago Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level Game Speed - Epic AI Aggression - Normal Barbarians - Raging, and teamed with the Mongols Permanent Alliances - Not Enabled City Razing - Enabled Roster: BrianS Blubmuz Civicide Culdeus Conroe Dutchfire Merum The Sansman Sweetacshon SG 06 - Warlords 2.13 - 2007/12 to 2008/04 Win - 10th out of 15 Spoiler: Prince difficulty Epic speed You play as the Charismatic, Protective Churchill of the English Empire. You start with Fishing and Mining. Your unique unit is the Redcoat, replacing the Rifleman. Your Unique building is the Stock Exchange, replacing the Bank. The map is a highly modified Cylindrical Big And Small map, using the BtS map script. It is Standard, Temperate, Medium sea level. Always war. All VCs are enabled. I think the barbs are at default setting. Roster: Blubmuz Civicide Greatbeyond Merum Sweetacshon SG 07 - Vanilla 1.74.002 - 2008/04 to 2008/09 Win - 10th out of 12 Spoiler: Playable Leader/Civ - Qin Shi Huang of China. Characteristics - Industrious and Financial, starts with Agriculture and Mining Unique Unit - Cho-Ku-Nu (Crossbowman) Rivals - All of them World size - Tiny Difficulty - Deity Landform - Continents Environment - Temperate climate, low sea level Game Speed - Normal AI Aggression - Normal Barbarians - Normal Permanent Alliances - Enabled City Razing - Enabled. China auto-razes to enforce OCC. Roster: Balthalion Blubmuz culdeus dutchfire greatbeyond Merum WastinTime Sweetacshon SG 08 - BtS 3.17.001 - 2008/09 to 2009/01 Win - 7th out of 14 Spoiler: Playable Leader/Civ - Suryavarman II of the Khmer Empire. Characteristics - Expansive and Creative, starts with Hunting and Mining Unique Unit - Ballista Elephant (War elephant) Unique Building - Baray (Aqueduct) Rivals - 7 AI civs World size - Standard Difficulty - Monarch Landform - Big and Small Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level Game Speed - Normal Everything else - Default Notes - Wonders Crazy Roster: Balthalion berserks01 Blubmuz greatbeyond Mesix Sweetacshon WastinTime SG 09 - BtS 3.17.001 - 2009/03 to 2009/07 Win - 8th out of 15 Spoiler: Playable Leader/Civ - Pericles of the Greek Empire. Characteristics - Philosophical and Creative, starts with Hunting and Fishing You and all the AI also know Fascism, Scientific Method, Physics, Medicine, Flight, Machinery, Replaceable Parts and Superconductors Unique Unit - Phalanx (Axeman) Unique Building - Odeon (Colosseum) Difficulty - Monarch Game Speed - Quick (330 turns) World size - Standard Rivals - Probably Landform - Mystery Environment - Not saying Other settings - No city razing, No goodie huts, No events Roster: Berserks01 Blubmuz Greatbeyond Mesix Simon_c Sweetacshon Unclethrill SG 10 - BtS 3.19.001 - 2009/08 to 2009/12 Win - 6th out of 15 Spoiler: Roster: Blubmuz Culdeus Greatbeyond Mesix (Germany, but he's American) SunTzuWu Sweetacshon Unclethrill (Germany, but he's American) SG 11 - BtS 3.19.001 - 2010/04 to 2010/08 Win - 7th out of 13 Spoiler: Roster: Blubmuz Dhoomstriker Mitchum havr Irgy unclethrill, SG 12 - BtS 3.19.001 - 2010/09 to 2011/01 Win - 3rd out of 10 Bronze Medal! Spoiler: Roster: Blubmuz beestar Fluroscent havr, pnp_dredd unclethrill (cas, orb) SG 13 - BtS 3.19.001 - 2011/02 to 2011/06 Win - 8th out of 11 Spoiler: Roster: BLubmuz beestar (culdeus) Fluroscent havr pnp_dredd unclethrill SG 14 - BtS 3.19.001 - 2011/07 in progress Spoiler: Roster: Blubmuz (Italy) UTC +1 / old - SG2 WithTea PnpDredd MeowZeDung Beestar Unclethrill (Germany, but he's American) UTC +1 __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02 Last edited by BLubmuz; Aug 24, 2011 at 12:59 PM.

Aug 03, 2011, 07:30 PM	#6
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,477	end of the reserved __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02

Aug 03, 2011, 03:29 PM	#1
AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: England Posts: 25,396 Images: 1	SGOTM 14 - Fifth Element Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 14 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. You can find the Game Details in the first post of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, I shall post them in that thread, and edit that post. Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived. Good luck, and remember rule #1 - ENJOY THE GAME! __________________ -- Alan -- - Fold for TeamCFC Avatar image: Milan Trykar. Courtesy of Snow Leopard Trust C-IV SGOTM Links: BtS SGOTM 17 Maintenance Thread \| Progress & Results \| BUFFY Mod for BtS 3.19 Mac OS X C-IV Utilities Drag'n'Drop Mod Installer \| GOTM Mac HOF Mod \| Macapaka .fpk File Extractor and Creator \| GOTM Mac Assets Checker Civ3 Utilities: 20K Culture Excel Calc w. Anarchy OS X: FileValet compressor/archiver for Civ3 Complete \| Civ3 1.29b2 Updater \| TextEdit for Civ3 Mods

Aug 04, 2011, 03:05 AM	#7
unclethrill Why am I up right now? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 2,047	First. Well not really.! So I'm checking in. Ill take a good look at the screenshot and description tonight and see if I can get a test game built. Looking forward to a new SGOTM and getting to know our new members. Welcome to the team and welcome back all our returning teammates __________________ G-Minor 49 #3 Deity EQM #3 Economic Left/Right: -8.12 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.10 As left as Ghandi and as liberal as the Dalai Lama SGOTM9 - 16 : Fifth Element Member: #12 - Bronze Medal -- #14 Wooden Spoon "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch." -- Nigel Powers

Aug 04, 2011, 03:32 AM	#8
pnp_dredd civ junkie Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 892	Hi all, just checking in. I'll post more thoughts at some stage but just a short post here as I've been a full-time stay-at-home dad (of 2yo and 4yo boys) for 3 weeks now and I'm exhausted. When I'm not on parental leave, I'm a scientist by trade, I used to conduct human health risk assessments for pesticides (i.e. toxicology) and I'm about to move into environmental risk assessments for new GM crops (i.e. Greenpeace's worst enemy if I approve anything). I'm 34 y.o. and live in Australia, so I tend to check-in and post while most of the world is asleep. (Go Cadel!) Also, I'm a little drunk at the moment (blended Scotch is my current poison). It's an interesting scenario. Last game was won by pure early conquest. That seems unlikely this time, but who knows? We'll need to aggressively build an empire, and both specialists and Oxford Uni synergise with our traits. Exploration will be a must. If there are nearby civs, we'll probably want to take them out early, or choke them, so we can expand into the available space and utilize any nice capital spots. [It's Normal speed, so military solutions are slightly less attractive, but still strong.] From a meta-gaming position, it's likely that the Wizard is an advanced unit (modern armour? air unit? naval unit?), but who knows? he could be the leader of a civilization, or just an Executive or Great Artist. We'll need to make sure that we gather all the available info from the turn 0 save (logs, demographics, what else?). Maybe the Wizard is a barbarian unit or even barb civilisation? The starting position in interesting. It's likely that there is a resource on the unforrested tile 1W of the settler. There's a plains hill but with the majority of it's tiles fogged it's a risk, when there are so many food bonuses, and means no wet corn. Another settling option is 2E or 1E1SE of the settler, to be seaside (which is good), and gain clams (which aren't great). I guess warrior SE will reveal more tiles, although I'm unsure whether that will give any further information. That wet corn is the best tile we could wish for. Unless we get fish then worker first and irrigate the corn will be a strong opening. The oasis is also a good tile to work early in the game, and doesn't require worker turns. With a "mystery" map, testing is difficult, although we should have a test game to work out worker moves and build orders. The Wonder dates should be fairly standard (although with heavy modification, who knows?). We are essentially Lincoln, so we start with Fishing and Agriculture. We are Philosophical and Charismatic, so have: Great People birth rate increased 100 percent. (!) Double production speed of University. +1 happiness per city. (!) -25% XP needed for unit promotions. +1 happiness from Monument and Broadcast Tower. These a good traits. Writing, and an early Academy in the capital, is strong. Extra happiness is good all around. We'll need workers to improve food resources, BW for whipping, and lots of cities with healthy populations. Our unique building is the Mall (replaces Supermarket, required Refrigeration), and our unit is the Navy Seal, (replaces Marine, requires Industrialism and Rifling). These are both so late that the game will have been decided by that stage. It's possible that the Wizard is a Machine Gun fortified on a single-tile island, in which case Marines may be useful, but we can deal with that on turn 150 or whatever. Last edited by pnp_dredd; Aug 04, 2011 at 03:38 AM.

Aug 04, 2011, 04:05 AM	#10
pnp_dredd civ junkie Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 892	clearly not, I'm a junkie, not a sniffer! I spent a good chunk of today at Kid City in Mitchell, and yesterday took both boys out to the bike tracks at Stromlo. The weather has been awesome these last few days! [ok, sorry, returning to your regular scheduled thread in 3, 2, 1...] Last edited by pnp_dredd; Aug 04, 2011 at 04:08 AM.

Aug 04, 2011, 08:57 AM	#11
MeowZeDung Prince Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 338	Hey hey! Checking in. I second Unclethrill in saying I'm excited about the game and getting to know everyone! Being a new addition to FE I just want to say a)thanks for having me! and b)don't hesitate to be blunt and tell me if I'm not handling something according to FE standards. @pnp_dredd I agree with your analysis of the start and our leader/traits. 1W would be tempting if it wasn't for the possibility of copper/iron/horses there. Unless there is fish I don't think going east is a good move as we lose a plains hill in an already hammer poor capital. However Warrior 1E or 1SE may show us something worthwhile. If there's fish we could make our first city a sweet phi GP farm and move the capital elsewhere. However, SiP gives us a sweet research capital: at least 10 cottage tiles (possibly 11 depending on the plains 1W of settler) 3 of which are riverside grassland. The spices, and the oasis are also decent commerce tiles. I just don't like that our only substantial hammers come from 2ph (8h -4f) a plains cow (3h +1f) and a grassland hill (3h -1f). I guess bureau and a forge will compensate a bit, as well as the potential resource 1W, but in the end I think this is far and away a research city. One intriguing possibility is moving the warrior 1N to the grass hill to see whats North of the Oasis. If we settle 1N we may make this an even more powerful commerce/science city. 1N gets us 2 unknown riverside tiles (though I can't tell without being able to zoom it looks like a forested grassland a forested plains and a plains hill?) and a riverside sheep. The only real loss is the plains cow and the added worker turns of moving 1 tile at a time to get to the corn and then back across to the sheep. However it also allows us to work the oasis ASAP which may be worth losing a turn moving the Settler. I think AH->Mining->BW->Wheel is the way to go here, unless of course we move to the coast for seafood. At first glance what makes sense to me as far as worker turns if we SiP is farm corn->pasture cows->chop out a settler with the forests 1S and 1SW of the capital->mine riverside PH (or improve special tile 1W if it turns out to be copper/horses)->road cow/corn/horse or copper/second city. Another intriguing possibility with a chm leader is Stonehenge for the +1happy and border pops in each city. We have a lot of forests in the BFC for chopping, so it may be viable even without stone. GPP pollution wouldn't be that bad since an early GA from a prophet would be welcome and we probably will get scientists rolling not long after that whether in the capital or a GP farm. I agree that Conquest and Domination may not be the best options since there are No Vassals and it's normal speed. However, we want to keep a big stick handy because of the random personalities. Nothing quite like a backstabbing Ghandi or a Zealot Mansa I don't know much about UN victories, so I can't really voice an opinion about that. Space seems like it would put us at a late finish date although cheap universities and an early Oxford might make it viable. Culture is very doable, especially if we can find nearby Marble/Stone for 2nd/3rd city as well as a good GP site. Lincoln's not the best cultural leader, but phi certainly makes it a strong possibility. Ok, that's my novel. I hope it adds to the discussion instead of detracting from it Last edited by MeowZeDung; Aug 04, 2011 at 09:04 AM.

Aug 04, 2011, 10:39 AM	#12
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,477	Cheking in. I was awake in an impossible hour tonight, i've seen the threads are open so i reserved 5 posts in record time. Welcome to our new mates and welcome back to anyone already known. To start immediately with some thought about this game, i don't know if we can benefit from our Philo trait for unis. As any competition demonstrated, the military option is always the fastest. I hope that neilmeister did something to avoid this, so this time at least Astro should be required. Nonetheless, even with Astro, the military option is always the fastest. Then, if the WoZ is a very advanced unit you need at least a good bunch of Industrial age units to kill him. I remember what 14 warriors or so did to a MA in SG12: no more than some scratch in the paint. Maces or knights can't to much more. You need no less than cannons and rifles, better infantry to do something. Starting position? Let me think better. __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02

Aug 04, 2011, 12:10 PM	#14
BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Vicenza, Italy Posts: 5,477	I'm posting looking at the screenie. First, let's see what we lose by SiP: - surely one forest - maybe the chance to settle a decent coastal city 1E of the oasis and with what seems to be 2 hills N of it. - the sheeps and we gain (?) the oasis then, what we can lose by settling 1W: - a possible resource (copper, iron, horses?) since it's the only visible unforested tile. - the oasis but we gain the sheep both the locations: - are riverside, - are not coastal, - can be settled on turn 0 But we have to see what the warrior reveals moving 1N or 1NE that plains 1E of the oasis can be interesting, provided the warrior reveals something interesting for a Capital. We need to lose 1 turn if we decide it's worth settle there, thus it has to be really worth, being in normal speed. I think UT is in duty to run one of his simulations. Then, some more thoughts: - SH is surely very handy, being Char. - Cottages in Capital, then food to gain on the Philo trait. - I see difficult this time too a CS sling. better aim to MC, like in SG13, IMHO. __________________ Memento Audere Semper (Gabriele d'Annunzio) - Audaces Fortuna Iuvat (Virgilio) Team Fifth Element since SGotM02

Aug 04, 2011, 03:44 PM	#15
unclethrill Why am I up right now? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 2,047	Okay so didn't get to finish the test game but I am working on it. I'll continue to work on it tomorrow but it is "date night" so I'm pretty sure I won't be finished completely tomorrow. As soon as it's usable I'll post it. __________________ G-Minor 49 #3 Deity EQM #3 Economic Left/Right: -8.12 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.10 As left as Ghandi and as liberal as the Dalai Lama SGOTM9 - 16 : Fifth Element Member: #12 - Bronze Medal -- #14 Wooden Spoon "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch." -- Nigel Powers

Aug 06, 2011, 07:18 AM	#17
MeowZeDung Prince Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 338	I also think MC wouldn't be the best tech to take with the oracle. We aren't ind so we don't get to take advantage of early cheap forges, and early bureau is going to boost our research enough that we could self tech MC if need be. Unless we do go for a coastal capital and The Colossus is too good to pass up I agree with pnp_dredd that CS is the way to go with the oracle. Edit: as I think of it, even if we end up settling for CoL from the Oracle I feel like we would be in a better position. Early CS with a phi/chm leader could mean a strong specialist economy, especially if we find 2-3 food rich cities. Last edited by MeowZeDung; Aug 06, 2011 at 01:33 PM.

Aug 06, 2011, 07:01 PM	#19
beestar subdeity Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Pacific Standard Time Posts: 1,553	Hi gang, checking in. No detailed thoughts at all about the game yet. We should think carefully about the high level goals and strategy - e.g. when to war in SGOTM13 (wait for the tech advantage with trebuchets, or start the warpath with Axes), e.g. how to scrub fallout in SGOTM12 (violently, by conquering the other AIs), etc. I think the evidence of the last few SGOTMs has been clear: micro helps a lot, but having the right grand strategy is a 30-turn difference. Let's make sure we spend some time thinking this part through. ------------ Oh, my bio - Cambridge UK engineer, working for a technology consultancy on energy and cleantech. (Got a product whose energy efficiency you need to be improved?) No kids, but got a girlfriend who hates the timesuck that is Civ

Aug 07, 2011, 02:00 AM	#20
unclethrill Why am I up right now? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 2,047	I have to agree with dredd and beestar that the major downfall of FE is wonder mania. The best we did was when we stayed away from almost all wonders. Oracle is a must and if we want to win then we need to push the limits and get CS with it. If we fail to get it then it is likely that others will fail that path too. We need early exploring. If there is anyone anywhere close we n eed to expand by force. The last game was won because they took a chance and rolled axes while we waited for MM ( and thought we were going too early with them). Keys to victory: 1. Early expansion. Preferably by force 2. Minimal wonders. Only ones that are absolutely necessary. 3. Early micromanagement. Late micromanagement. Lots of micromanagement. . . . 4. Full participation. We may not each be the best players here but together we have a lot of knowledge to share. If you see somethin g that looks or sounds wrong speak up. 5. No rogue play. We have to make decisions as a team. If there is a tie then Blubmuz can break the tie but we need majority decisions. __________________ G-Minor 49 #3 Deity EQM #3 Economic Left/Right: -8.12 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.10 As left as Ghandi and as liberal as the Dalai Lama SGOTM9 - 16 : Fifth Element Member: #12 - Bronze Medal -- #14 Wooden Spoon "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch." -- Nigel Powers

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