[BTS] SGOTM 14 - Xteam

[The-Hawk]

How are we doing on time? Less than 1 month until the finish date and as CP discovered, these turns are starting to take a long time...

[leif erikson]

Originally Posted by The-Hawk

How are we doing on time? Less than 1 month until the finish date and as CP discovered, these turns are starting to take a long time...

Time is getting precious.

[Cactus Pete]

We are ahead, in terms of turns played, of most teams.

[leif erikson]

Originally Posted by Cactus Pete

3 units have been left with movement to give knowledge to MP, or whoever goes next.
(1)The worker south of Oxford is stopped to reveal Indian sword, but needs to be moved this turn to the deer tile, so that next turn he can move onto the ice and see what is in Oxford.
(2)The spy near Bombay is revealing Asoka’s hidden units in Agra – 3 knights, 8 cats, etc. – and can be moved one tile south to reveal the Indian capital. When I sailed by all 4 of Asoka’s southern cities with caravel#1, several turns ago, none of the cities had heavy defenses or multiple attack units like Agra (and best guess is that there are not many more in the fog).
(3)Worker#4, near Ujjain, has been moving onto the tundra from the forest and back each turn to detect any advancing Viking units. (He has only seen a very few, usually accompanying a settler, but there seems to be a Viking city on the plains 2SW of that worker where there could be an accumulation of units.)

Thanks for this update and the units to allow me to have a look.

Originally Posted by Cactus Pete

If we do not switch out of Pacifism quickly, we will likely get a GS from NK instead of a GM from Phily (Unless we sacrifice Phily’s population, which I advocate against at this point.) Like switching this turn or next turn.

Think you are correct about switching civics soon. Not so sure a GS woudl be a terrible thing? More below.

Originally Posted by Cactus Pete

We can still change 3 Civics in 2 turns, so suggest switching to Theo, Free Market, and Nationhood. This will generate more gold from trade routes, including from the English cities that are about to come out of anarchy, and Theo will replace Vassalage in all of our major unit-producing cities. Moreover, it will allow us to draft musketeers, especially in Bombay, but also in Prayaga and elsewhere as needed.

This makes a great deal of sense.

Originally Posted by Cactus Pete

Would argue that we should stay in Caste and Rep until we have a GM (or a non-GS out of Phily) and have learned MS, allowing us to draft grens.
I should have begun building commerce in Chicago, instead of a treb, as units from there will be slow to the front, we need to get to MS, and expect maintenance to increase significantly as English cities come on line. So, suggest that change be made immediately.

The GM should go to Tenochtitlan, if we can get him there? GLH and Colossus means lots of commerce there and it is quite far away, no sure if we can wait that long?

Originally Posted by Cactus Pete

Turning production into science and/or commerce is pretty powerful (used it for a turn to get to Chem quicker) but don’t think we can afford to lose much production until we have sufficient units to deal with the South.

This makes me wonder if we should consider changing to a hammer economy? It would require us to get Communism for State Property. SP allows one additional food for a Workshop, so cities should have plenty of food and hammers. Not sure we have time to do so? Two GS' would give us Scientific Method and then we have to research Communism, that means forgoing Cannons, at least for a while.

Are Grens enough to tangle with Asoka?

Originally Posted by Cactus Pete

Have given some thought as to how best to proceed in India, which should certainly be done sooner than later:

Need to ASAP pillage the ivory near Ujjain, but cat attacks are the biggest problem, and tactics should revolve around minimizing their effect. Unless spy finds many more attacking units in the fog (he can move onto the plans hill 4S of Bombay next turn, if he survives, and reveal much of the hidden Indian territory), we should be able to defend Bombay and Prayaga while attacking.

Muskets can be promoted to guerilla2, giving them double movement on hills, which will allow us to move musket and cur, plus WE now in galley and possibly additional units, onto windmill hill 2N of Bangalore to pillage windmill and cut road the following turn thereby preventing cat attack from that direction.

When we declare, two units from Prayaga should move onto copper and be prepared to pillage it and the road if units advance toward the city.

There are a number of ways to go after Agra, including trying to sacrifice units to get Asoka to burn his cats – muskets and cur on the gold hill, for example – but the next player can puzzle that out.

Some units left on ships, especially galleon, will give considerable flexibilty to their deployment.

Need to think this out more, but some excellent suggestions.

Originally Posted by Cactus Pete

We need to get two workers into Prayaga area soon, so that we can build a road back quickly when needed.

Originally Posted by Cactus Pete

Finally, would strongly urge that sets be no more than ten turns, or less, from here on. There are a growing number of cities and units to deal with. The first several turns of war against India, especially, should not go quickly.

Yes, but we need to turn the game over fairly quickly to finish, I think.

That some are behind in turns is not comforting.

[Htadus]

I would recommend that we do sacrifice a pop or 3 to try to get a GM and run another GA. I speak from the experience of running up to 4 GA's back to back that there is no comparison to the hammer and commerce gain. During the GA, get another GM from another city for the trade route.

Leif, typically going to the ToA city yields the most cash for a GM. You may want check that.

The current units we have can deal with anything Ashoka can put up. The speed of the VC is going to depend on how fast and how big of an army we can field. I can promise you when and if the game gets to me I will be whipping and drafting like mad. BTW do we even have the Globe built yet. Perhaps we should consider building it in one of the High Food Cities.

[leif erikson]

Originally Posted by Htadus

I would recommend that we do sacrifice a pop or 3 to try to get a GM and run another GA. I speak from the experience of running up to 4 GA's back to back that there is no comparison to the hammer and commerce gain. During the GA, get another GM from another city for the trade route.

Don't think we can produce Great People that quickly?

Originally Posted by Htadus

Leif, typically going to the ToA city yields the most cash for a GM. You may want check that.

Thanks, I'll check on that.

Originally Posted by Htadus

The current units we have can deal with anything Ashoka can put up. The speed of the VC is going to depend on how fast and how big of an army we can field. I can promise you when and if the game gets to me I will be whipping and drafting like mad. BTW do we even have the Globe built yet. Perhaps we should consider building it in one of the High Food Cities.

Don't think we have Globe built. Will check.

The problem with whipping and drafting is that a terrible economy just gets worse. Brings to mind the question of the worth of it if you are getting units eliminated for lack of funds as quickly as you can produce them? Add to that battle losses and not sure what you've gained?

[Cactus Pete]

"This makes me wonder if we should consider changing to a hammer economy? It's not that powerful, just something to be aware of and utilize for a few turns in a critical situation. Are Grens enough to tangle with Asoka? Failure to communicate here. Would be nice to be able to draft muskets, but Asoka should not require grens if we don't delay for long.
\

Originally Posted by Htadus

I would recommend that we do sacrifice a pop or 3 to try to get a GM and run another GA. Sacrifice is unnecessary if we switch Civics, weakens the city in the short run, and costs us potential draftees in the medium run. I speak from the experience of running up to 4 GA's back to back that there is no comparison to the hammer and commerce gain. I haven't done the math, but not at all sure we have enough citizens to make a GA more powerful than a merchant right now. During the GA, get another GM from another city for the trade route. Problem with this may be that there isn't a city where there would be a high-probabilty of getting a GM soon. Worth looking at though.

The current units we have can deal with anything Ashoka can put up. The speed of the VC is going to depend on how fast and how big of an army we can field. Concur. I can promise you when and if the game gets to me I will be whipping and drafting like mad. Would hope that some of that will already have been done by then and that you would be dealt a hand full of grens. BTW do we even have the Globe built yet. Perhaps we should consider building it in one of the High Food Cities.

Got to build theaters first, and we have needed to build units. We need more cities. Further reason to take out Asoka soon.

[Htadus]

Originally Posted by Cactus Pete

"This makes me wonder if we should consider changing to a hammer economy? It's not that powerful, just something to be aware of and utilize for a few turns in a critical situation. Are Grens enough to tangle with Asoka? Failure to communicate here. Would be nice to be able to draft muskets, but Asoka should not require grens if we don't delay for long.
Yes, lets not delay Asoka's doom.
Hammer economy is a great thing after factory and power plant. Right now it is not that great. But when not running Rep, hammer eco is better since the flexibility it alllows.

Got to build theaters first, and we have needed to build units. We need more cities. Further reason to take out Asoka soon.

worst case: 6 whips for a cost of 12 pops max and then the cost of Globe. A unit every turn in a food heavy economy is priceless. We do have a city that can grow back each turn at size 6 to 7 I believe.

[Htadus]

Originally Posted by leif erikson

The problem with whipping and drafting is that a terrible economy just gets worse. Brings to mind the question of the worth of it if you are getting units eliminated for lack of funds as quickly as you can produce them? Add to that battle losses and not sure what you've gained?

As long as we can take a city in between to fund till the next strike, we should be good. Also we can control who get eliminated. Typically it is the unit farthers from the capital. So have a few cats on had in a galley for sacrifice.

EDIT: Actually this may not be easy to determine on this map.

[leif erikson]

Originally Posted by Cactus Pete

The speed of the VC is going to depend on how fast and how big of an army we can field. Concur

Does this not argue for a change to Slavery very soon? Is the idea to remain in Caste until we get a GM, then Slavery?

What is our goal regarding Lizzy, leave her with a city or send to dustbin? If we leave her with a city, does this adversely affect Mongol research rate?

Thinking we could make civic changes immediately, using those two turns to clean up Lizzie and then free some Currassier from England area to go to Asoka. Wondering if we attack Ujjain first if some units would be diverted to Ayodhya to defend, leaving Agra with fewer defenders?

Was also wondering how big a stack would be needed to cause Cats in Agra to come out and attack? Is it possible to get them out of the city and into the open for counter?

Would fear moving too many units out of Bombay increasing the chances of a flip? Would like more units in that area unless we can draw off some AI units to the west?

[Cactus Pete]

Originally Posted by leif erikson

Does this not argue for a change to Slavery very soon? Is the idea to remain in Caste until we get a GM, then Slavery? No, at least until we get a GM (or a Golden Age) and MS, at which point we may want to switch to both Slavery and PS, depending on how the game is playing.

What is our goal regarding Lizzy, leave her with a city or send to dustbin? If we leave her with a city, does this adversely affect Mongol research rate? Not sure we have a great worry with Mongol research. Advantages of wiping her out: no "miss our motherland" unhappiness, a little gold, some experience/GGpoints, and -- last, but not least -- a clear road from England to SF.

Thinking we could make civic changes immediately, using those two turns to clean up Lizzie and then free some Currassier from England area to go to Asoka. Wondering if we attack Ujjain first if some units would be diverted to Ayodhya to defend, leaving Agra with fewer defenders? If we attack Asoka soon, then we will still be in the process of finishing off England and bringing units towards SF. Other than pillaging ivory, we don't want a fight with Asoka in that area, where Rags may be all we can handle initially. The turn we declare and move onto the ivory, we could just move to pillage the windmill and road and keep rest of our Bombay units in, or just outside, the city, but that would allow at least an 8-cat attack on Bombay. Be nice to see what else the spy is able to reveal before deciding if that is a wise tactic.

Was also wondering how big a stack would be needed to cause Cats in Agra to come out and attack? Is it possible to get them out of the city and into the open for counter? During my turn set, the AI were very aggressive, especially in their use of cats and other non-defensive units. That only changed when England was all but defeated. So, likely that Asoka will attack with his cats. Question is best way for that to happen. Again, would seem wise to try and learn more from the spy before finalizing a plan. Also, Asoka might split his forces and send some toward Prayaga, which would be a good thing, if anticipated.

Would fear moving too many units out of Bombay increasing the chances of a flip? Would like more units in that area unless we can draw off some AI units to the west?

You can test this by moving a unit in and out of the city, but don't think it will affect flip chances enough not to be worth the risk for one turn. BTW, what will going into anarchy for two turns do to the flip chances?

[leif erikson]

Moved the Spy south which reveals that Pataliputra contains:
LB - promoted to Guerilla2 (+30% on hills)
3 x LB's - promoted City Garrison1
2 x Cats - promoted Barrage1
Mace - promoted CBT1

Moved Worker4 back to the forest, nw and Worker6 back towards the Deer tile wnw.

Saved and exited.
So it can be better seen, save attached.

[The-Hawk]

Originally Posted by Leif

What is our goal regarding Lizzy, leave her with a city or send to dustbin?

Agree with CP... we should finish her off. I would keep Coventry and raze the others (replace Warwick with a new city).

Wondering if we attack Ujjain first if some units would be diverted to Ayodhya to defend, leaving Agra with fewer defenders?

I would expect Asoka to prioritize recapturing his capital. Would be nice if we can kill his cats out in the field, but even if he attacks Bombay, I am not overly worried. We do not see evidence of a large strike force hanging around anywhere, so even if he wounds our stack, he can't kill that many. Also, we have some tough defenders there. We have a super medic there to heal them (assuming the supermedic is not killing in the initial attack). I noticed we are starting to build some cultural defense in Bombay. With all of those artists, we will get some more. Maybe Asoka will decide to bombard one turn. This would be a very bad thing (for Asoka ).

Originally Posted by CP

Other than pillaging ivory, we don't want a fight with Asoka in that area, where Rags may be all we can handle initially.

I agree completely. Based on past experience, Rags will be all over us at SF. We need to make sure some of the units attacking Liz from her south return to SF before DOW on Asoka.

Originally Posted by Htadus

worst case: 6 whips for a cost of 12 pops max and then the cost of Globe. A unit every turn in a food heavy economy is priceless. We do have a city that can grow back each turn at size 6 to 7 I believe.

Not so sure about Globe. We may not be playing long enough to warrant it. Part of the problem is the time it will take for these units to get to the front(s). We would probably want to build it in a captured Liz or Asoka city. Maybe Agra, but it will be a while before we can even start to build it.

Originally Posted by Leif

The problem with whipping and drafting is that a terrible economy just gets worse.

Agreed. However, pretty soon our core cities will be less useful for building units because of the distances. They can build wealth to cover our economy.

[Cactus Pete]

Looked at spy save:

Units in Patal are not off-putting. It is the only hill city in India and should be avoided in the early stages of the war. 2 cats will be moved out and probably the mace, but can be dealt with.

Unless the spy finds a large stack of units to the southeast, don't think my suggestion to pillage windmill and road is particularly helpful.

We should attack Asoka as soon as some units start coming back from England with more on the way. The cur about to come out of Washington and muskets drafted in SF will help too.

BTW, the mace in York and the one west of York should be brought to bear on Warwick, not Coventry, unless a pike pops up there IBT.

[leif erikson]

Thanks for the input. Perhaps what may be best is to try to play tomorrow up through:

Revolt to Nationhood, Free Market and Theocracy.
Continue attack on Lizzie.
Prep for attack on Asoka by moving units south, both from our core to Bombay area (leave some on Galleons, place other just outside or in the city) and from Lizzie to SF area. Continue scouting south with Spy looking for Asoka units.
Raze cities as suggested by Hawk.
Get a few Workers down to Bombay area.
Plant a new city as a canal on Lizzie's leg.
Stop if anything untoward occurs...

What have I missed?

[Cactus Pete]

Switch to commerce in Chicago; draft muskets in Bombay and Pray; prepare to pillage ivory.

[The-Hawk]

Originally Posted by leif erikson

What have I missed?

Haka !

[leif erikson]

Yes, thanks CP.

And of course, Hawk!

[leif erikson]

We are out of anarchy at the start of turn 185.

Log thus far:

Spoiler:

Turn 183 – 1230 AD
Change Chicago from building Treb to Wealth.
Change Civics to Nationhood, Free Market and Theocracy.

IBT
Lots of Gold to trade.
Great Engineer born to Good Witch of the East
Great Prophet born to Wicked Witch of the North.

Turn 184 – 1240 AD
Bombard Warwick to 0% culture.
Wait for more attackers before attacking.

Caravel south discovers Raggie’s city of Jelling, contains 2 LB’s with CG promo’s.
Worker4 moves near the Sheep at Ujjain and sees a Viking Knight accompanying a Settler.
Spy moves south and sees no stacks of units.

Attack Minoan with CR2 Cat at 19.8 % odds and it survives, now 1.4/5.
Cuirassier attacks CG1 LB at 95.59% odds and kills him, now at 10.1/12.
WE attacks CBT2 LB at 100% odds and kills him, we take Minoan +55 Gold and burn it to the ground.

As Gandhi/Montie have Astronomy, decide to trade Astronomy to Shaka for Constitution plus 150 Gold

IBT
The Witches of the West will trade Democracy.
Wicked Witch of the North has begun a Golden Age.
Good Witch of the West adopts Emancipation and Universal Suffrage.
Our Government is re-established. We have 841 Gold and are losing 27 gpt at o% research.

Turn 185 – 1250 AD

Both Philly and NK will produce a Great Person in 8-turns and the game says that the one in NK will be born. Not sure we can affect this?

At Coventry, is it better to knock culture down or attack with the Cat before using units?

Think I can attack Warwick this turn but take it next turn?

Should set research to 100% for MS?

Moved Spy so you can see Bangalore, next move will be to visit Hyderabad.

[Cactus Pete]

Originally Posted by leif erikson

Both Philly and NK will produce a Great Person in 8-turns and the game says that the one in NK will be born. Not sure we can affect this?
Rats, think that's my fault -- should have revolted a turn earlier. Also, I didn't realize you had to be in Slavery to use drafting.

At Coventry, is it better to knock culture down or attack with the Cat before using units? Knock culture down. Attack loses cat for sure, and we almost certainbly will take the city even if we lose a cur.

Think I can attack Warwick this turn but take it next turn? I'd wait and advance two more units, then use treb and 3CRcat (if needed) next turn.

Should set research to 100% for MS? Might as well for a turn or two, though doubt we'll capture enough gold to get it in five turns.

Moved Spy so you can see Bangalore, next move will be to visit Hyderabad.

Don't like the maceman headed for the gold hill. We want to take that position to prevent an attack from there. What did you find in Oxford? Need to consider attacking Asoka this turn. You've got 2 curs in London that can be galleon chained.