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Old Feb 04, 2003, 06:45 AM   #1
anarres
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Post PBEM - Results thread

I decided to start a results thread, to collect all the PBEM results once they are finished.

Post finished game results in this thread and I will update the table. I know that there are several games already finished, but I can't face going through all the threads looking for them, please post here is you have finished a game already.

If no-one likes the idea we can just let this thread die

Code:
Game                     Winner              Victory Type

ERIKK vs. anarres        anarres             resignation
Mel vs. Col              mel                 resignation

Last edited by anarres; Feb 04, 2003 at 06:49 AM.
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Old Feb 04, 2003, 06:53 AM   #2
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Well done anarres...
Great idea, cant say it will get updated often but you never know, someone might make it all sticky...

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Old Feb 04, 2003, 08:50 AM   #3
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PBEM games finish?

I thought that all you did was play 5 turns and than it vanished
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Old Feb 04, 2003, 03:34 PM   #4
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Very good idea, anarres!

But who's the winner? The one with a "victory" or the one with the highest score?
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Old Feb 04, 2003, 03:50 PM   #5
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The one left alive at the end

I never even thought about not killing someone, so I guess whoever gets the victory.

IMO, score seems unimportant playing against humans. Maybe in the case of a histograph win we could use score
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Old Feb 05, 2003, 02:33 AM   #6
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Great idea Anarres. Could we turn this in a PBEM (or maybe all MP) ladder for head to head games also? Would be great to have a little competition between us.

If people like the ladder idea I'm prepared to develop a ladder system proposal.
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Old Feb 05, 2003, 02:34 AM   #7
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Yay!

Propain damn fine idea...
Might be a bit slow getting started but should look good in a couple of years

Melifluous

PS. In spite of my sarcasm I think this is a great idea
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Old Feb 05, 2003, 04:24 AM   #8
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Propain, please do suggest a 'ladder' concept, I will be happy to help in any way I can (even if it's just by playing).

It will have to be very flexible to take account of the many vs. many aspect of MP games, and also the fact that some people play more than others
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Old Feb 05, 2003, 05:01 AM   #9
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Great idea, ProPain. I don't know if I have the time to help, but I can always assist from the sideline. I've had experience with setting things up at CFC. (Of course it doesn't have to become such a big event as the GOTM, but still...)

I'd like to see two rankings: one which tells the number of defeats and victories (taking into account the number of opponents!) and one with the final scores. That should be the basic, IMO.
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Old Feb 05, 2003, 03:07 PM   #10
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I'll start on proposal people, don't expect it before the weekend though because my work is very busy right now. But I'll have it here before monday.
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Old Feb 06, 2003, 04:28 AM   #11
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Take your time, lad. It's all voluntary.
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Old Feb 26, 2003, 05:17 AM   #12
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Ok , it's been a while longer than I promised but rl work has kept me more than busy (and pbem vs Kemal of course).

Looking at the matter I see 2 possible ladder solutions

1 - straightforward ladder
2 - intricate ladder

Straightforward ladder

This is quite simple. You can challenge someone on the ladder who higher positioned than you are. If you win, you switch places. If you lose you obviously don't.

Pro's
  • easy system
  • no rules needed for gameformat. As long as 2 players agree how they wanna play it's ok
Con's
  • Players who're high in the ladder will be asked more often than lower ranked players. This may result in total newb challenging no 1 player
  • Bad luck can make you drop a lot in the ladder
  • You need a 'start' ladder

Rules
  • A player may decline a challenge from a player who's more than 5 positions away from him/her.
  • A player may decline a challenge from a player he has just defeated. (in other words. You can't keep challenging a player right after finishing a game with that player)(maybe a month timecap?)
  • When a player receives several challenges he can't refuse (within 5 position range) he has to take on the player he hasn't played the longest.
  • Both players can ask for a restart in the first turn once. (when you have a bad starting position)
For starting ladder we could use tournament season 3 result and/or global ranking

Intricate ladder
With this system the score of the games determines your position in the ladder. This will be similar to the global ranking system. Difficulty here's to determine what score to use for comparison

possible score system
  • % of won game
  • game score
  • end game date
  • combination
Problem with all formats except the 1st is the difference in world build and AI players. So % of won games seems the most sensible choice.

Pro's
  • easy system
  • no rules needed for gameformat. As long as 2 players agree how they wanna play it's ok
  • An unlucky loss doesn't matter that much
Con's
  • This will encourage players to challenge much weaker players.
  • Favors fast game map conditions (more games can be played)
Rules
  • A player may decline a challenge from a player who's more than 5 positions away from him/her.
  • A player may decline a challenge from a player who has just defeated him. (maybe a month timecap?)
  • When a player receives several challenges he can't refuse (within 5 position range) he has to take on the player he hasn't played the longest.
  • Both players can ask for a restart in the first turn once. (when you have a bad starting position)
That's it

I'd like to hear everyones thoughts about these proposals. I say we discuss this for a few days and then I'll put up a poll.

I'm prepared to act as administrator for a ladder system but help would be appreciated. So if anyone's interested, just let me know

->Back to pbem with Kemal
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Old Feb 26, 2003, 05:39 AM   #13
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Hey Propain,

This is just great!

Clearly the second version of the ladder has to be used. Swapping positions? sounds crazy

Percentage of games won is gonna be tricky as people will finish their games faster than others. Maybe a points system based on speed? Faster win = more points (game year).
As for people choosing tiny maps and winning quick why not restrict the game size to small or standard only?
Or have a different division for each map size?
Or each AI difficulty level...

Damn not so easy is it...

Melifluous

PS. I would LOVE to help you out on this, either PM me or mail me on stevebroad2002@hotmail.com

PPS. I may also have some players who would like to take part in here... check this thread out 1v1 Tourney
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Old Feb 26, 2003, 05:44 AM   #14
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Good stuff ProPain,

I have listed some thoughts below, but I am still not sure which system I would go for. I think a poll in a couple of days is a little ambitous, unless all potential problems can be resolved by then.

- You should not be forced to play anyone, ever, but if you refuse a certain number of games you should drop in ranking. This applies to either ladder system.

- To back up the last point, you should only ever have to play one game at once, but it is possible for several games to be played at once. The 'simple' system would need to be modified to take in to account multiple games. For example, if I am position 3, and play 2 and 4 in head-to-head's at the same time, and lose against player 4, but win against player 2, where am I in the ladder? Does it count from which game started first or which game ended first?

- Killing a head-to-head game by refusing to play is a loss. A minimum of 20turns/week at the start and 10 turns/week after turn 100 should be enough as a minimum to keep them moving.

- NO RESTARTS, if you want a 'fair' game then you should not play a random map. If both players agree to a restart then they can declare the game null and void and start again. If you allow restarts from one player only you will get them nearly every game.

- % will not give a realistic system, as stronger players tend to play stonger players anyway. Staight swapping on a ladder seems more appropriate. (Otherwise someone in 5th place could play several AP games against players 10 to 15, and get a 100% record in a matter of weeks or even days). Also, a % system would mean no-one would want to play the top players, as losing would matter. In the simple system, a loss means nothing, which is good as it will encourage more games.

Just my thoughts. Good luck on getting this working ProPain.

BTW, maybe a club level chess player like col could comment on possible scoring systems. I am sure there are points systems out there that are used in ladders like this.
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Old Feb 26, 2003, 05:47 AM   #15
Lt. 'Killer' M.
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anarres: i think you would have to limit things to say 20 players and either have a KO tournament, or a league where everyone plays everyone.....
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Old Feb 26, 2003, 05:50 AM   #16
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I think that if you dont want to see and 1vs1 any different from a 6 player game, you wil need 2 ladders.

But a ranking system is the best solution I think:

- When you use a ranking system: if a higher level player is defeated by a lower level player, he should recieve extra points!
- In a 6 player game points should be distributed for 1st, 2nd 3rd etc etc.
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Old Feb 26, 2003, 06:03 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by ERIKK
I think that if you dont want to see and 1vs1 any different from a 6 player game, you wil need 2 ladders.

But a ranking system is the best solution I think:

- When you use a ranking system: if a higher level player is defeated by a lower level player, he should recieve extra points!
- In a 6 player game points should be distributed for 1st, 2nd 3rd etc etc.
So: all player starts with 100 points

Per game points:
50 points for a win
10 (+ 50) points bonus for winning from a higher level player
- 10 points for losing from a lower level player
All player get (starting from game 2) 100 points per game.

Score balanced by deviding to number of played games

game 1
erikk (100) vs annarres (100): anarres win gets 50 points, erikk no points

1st game played
ranking erikk = 100
ranking anarres = 150

game 2
erikk (100) vs anarres (150): erikk win, gets 100 + 60 points, anarres loses 100 - 10 points

2nd game played by both, so:
Ranking erikk 260/2 = 130
Ranking anarres 240/2 = 120

Two games played but erikk profits from winning the second game when anarres has a higher ranking because of his first win.

Comments?
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Last edited by ERIKK; Feb 26, 2003 at 06:10 AM.
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Old Feb 26, 2003, 06:04 AM   #18
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OK,
I've changed my mind...
Swapping positions is probably the only way you can do it

This should be a 1v1 only ladder. You can have other team ladders later, but the teams would HAVE to stay the same. The ladder wont work otherwise.

Players declining a game (from someone less than five places below) should have it logged, decline three and drop a place say?

Also at the start of each game each player MUST have at least ONE chance of a restart and ONE chance only, I fully agree with ProPain on this. Just look at Mel vs Col start positions.

OR

We could get one of the ladder staff to create a FAIR map.

As for initial rankings, why dont we get someone to choose it?
Everyone who enters says what level they play at (as in regularly win at) and then someone who knows their stuff in this forum (anarres? Killer? Col?) could just choose the rankings. Maybe based on GOTM submissions or Hall of Fame entries or the Tournament...

Basically anarres just said this but I like it now

Also do we set a time limit on the game?

Must finish before a certain date? Or must send within 24 hours of receipt?
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Old Feb 26, 2003, 06:06 AM   #19
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Nice, ProPain.

I take it you were joking with the first system?

But the second is fine. Simplicity is good too. Anyway, you need something to start with, so don't make it too complicated yet.
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Old Feb 26, 2003, 06:11 AM   #20
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on the starting positions: am THIRD PERSON should check both starts - if they differ too muhc HE/SHE calls a restart....

check via Screenshot.
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