[BTS] Dotmap

[WJBG]

Hello all!

This is my first post here, but I have been lurking for quite some time. I must say that especcially the ALC series are fun and helpful to read! Although I've learned quite a lot, I am still a Prince level (but enjoying it!).

Recently, I started a game as King Brennus from the Celts. The year is 2800BC and it is time to think about city placement. I've drawn up a dotmap (see below) and just wondered how it compares with the dotmap you (probably more experienced higher level players) would make.

Care to share your thoughts?


Regards WJBG!

[ahcos]

Pack your cities tighter as long as you have food in all of them. Your 2nd city should be the one @ horses SW, i'd probably move it 1N as that saves some workerturns for connection and allows the city to pregrow some cottages for the cap and share tiles overall.

Also try to get food in the first culture ring with your first few cities (unless you're Creative, ofc), preferably also some hills so it gets set up as quick as possible.

So:

Spices: 1W
Horses: 1N
Rice: 1 NW
Pig: 1 SW

Another good city can be placed 1S of the Sheep or 2S for better long term value.

Cottage the Spicecity, Pigcity looks like a Prod. City.

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Originally Posted by WJBG

Recently, I started a game as King Brennus from the Celts. The year is 2800BC and it is time to think about city placement. I've drawn up a dotmap (see below) and just wondered how it compares with the dotmap you (probably more experienced higher level players) would make.

Not bad. These look a bit idealized to me -- I'd prefer to see a map that better reflects the distinction of early and late settlements.

(Also, with labeled/colored dots, so that it's easier to talk about specific cases).

The first thing that I see on this map is the ability to put pigs/copper in the first ring of a city. I get more interested in those locations when, like here, there are additional hills to be worked. In short, there's an ancient era production monster hiding there -- the sort of city that makes it really easy to pump out more cities/defending units. It would be my top priority here, for that reason.

The rest of the map folds around that -- City #3 would probably pair the corn and the horse together (using the T50 pop of capital borders to work the corn). There's a city in between -- maybe on the sugar? and another off by that corn to the east.

Your Rice/Marble city looks kind of brown to me -- did you explore putting that dot two tiles /west/ of the rice, instead of south?

[WJBG]

Thank you both!

I've redrawn the dotmap of at least the first few cities. I plan to settle green first, which will indeed be a strong early age production city. I think it would require four farms to work all mined hills. Subsequently, the red city will be found, which will probably be cottaged. After settling these, I'll decide where the next city goes.

The land north of my capital is quite arid, so the purple city won't be a powerhouse. Nevertheless, the Russions are north of me and I would like some kind of bufferzone between them and my capital. South of my capital the land is much greener. Moreover, south-east of the blue city there are gems! Probably it is, therefore, wise to settle at least towards that direction already!

Thanks again for your input!
Cheers

[gorf37]

Changing the city to the pig/copper is a great improvement. Your initial map had very little overlap between cities. One general trend that I would try to follow is: let city density work with the colour of the land underneath. I'll try to explain:

When there's a lot of grassland, like you have for the most part, city density should be at its highest. Overlap is good because the green tiles are ones you'll want to work sooner, because they have more food (a grassland mine trades one food for 3 hammers, a plains hill mine trades two food for 4 hammers, for instance). Before calendar/hereditary rule, you'll be hard-pressed to get much over size 7-8 cities, so having a full BFC of 20 tiles is somewhat wasteful, since you won't work them until much later, and another city could be working them.

When you're coastal, city density should decrease, because non-financial coast is not a good tile, unless your holding onto population in anticipation of a big whip. (I'm really not sold on financial coast either, but that's just me. Certainly you'll see plenty of high level players working it.)

When your land is mostly plains, little to no overlap is okay. Really, overlapping a second city in, just so they can work more plains tiles isn't likely to be a winning strategy, though riverside cottages can be an exception, depeding on how many food specials are available. Usually you'll need a couple of food specials just to work the other tiles in a mostly plains city. I try to grab as many special tiles as I can with a mostly plains city, since that's often what they do is secure resources, rather than being major commerce or production centres.

When you're up in the arctic, or in a desert area, overlap is unlikely, and there's even the possibility of empty tiles between cities. (Make sure that you don't leave any gaps if the purpose of your city placement is to try and block AI from settling an area.)

Floodplains is one I forgot, and there the overlap can be at its highest, because floodplains typically spawn in a big group, and usually one city cannot work them all, either for lack of happiness, or especially from lack of health, because flood plains carry a health penalty.

Hope that helps!

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Originally Posted by gorf37

Floodplains is one I forgot, and there the overlap can be at its highest, because floodplains typically spawn in a big group, and usually one city cannot work them all, either for lack of happiness, or especially from lack of health, because flood plains carry a health penalty.

I'm skeptical, because overlapping floodplains mean paying the health cost twice, but you only get to eat the food once.

[gorf37]

Really? I had convinced myself that if the floodplains were "blacked out" for one city's bfc due to overlap, then the health cost wasn't paid. Well, I guess the only reason for overlap then would be for help in growing cottages faster. I stand corrected.

Still, I'll take it as a compliment that the rest of my shpeel wasn't picked-apart!

[lymond]

Not bad, but you seem to have a tendency not to settle next to food, pig/copper being a good exception. I would move sugar/spice 1N and horse/corn 1E to get corn in 1st ring. The 2 cities can share the corn as needed to grow.'

edit: Of course, the exception to settling closer to horse vs. corn is whether you intend to use those horses very early

[coanda]

Looking at the sites you've chosen...
Green is great. Take that first. A nice early production powerhouse (pigs, copper, two grass-mines, and a plains-mine at size-5: net of 1F 16P).
Red is good (make it your third city, so your capital's borders have hopefully popped and brought the corn into your borders before you settle).
Pink is good. Probably your fourth city. The plains-hill will give it an extra hammer production right off the bat; sharing pigs with the capital will let it grow quickly. Chop a monument, and you can start working those floodplains to make this into a solid commerce city to help pay for your empire.
Blue is a little iffy. It's going to take a lot of work to deal with all those jungles and make it useful. Move it 1N like lymond suggests and you get better early growth, plus you get a few hills to help with early production. Not a bad city, although not earth-shaking... but I might put off that city for a while and settle more aggressively far afield instead, depending on how much AI competition you're up against for land.
None of the spots really jump out as an obvious GP farm - pink could fill that role, but then you need to find a way of getting your commerce somewhere else.

[WJBG]

Originally Posted by gorf37

One general trend that I would try to follow is: let city density work with the colour of the land underneath.

That makes a lot of sense. I generally tend to focus on the (very) long term prospect of a city and try to prevent any overlap anywhere. And indeed it takes a long time until my cities can work all these nice tiles. I'll definitely need to get more out these greenish tiles earlier in the game!

Originally Posted by lymond

Not bad, but you seem to have a tendency not to settle next to food, pig/copper being a good exception. I would move sugar/spice 1N and horse/corn 1E to get corn in 1st ring.

Indeed, as said above I almost always try (rigidly) to optimize the placement of the big fat crosses thereby missing out on food in the first ring. I realize food is important and should probably sacrifice optimal (long term) placement for the short term gains.

Originally Posted by coanda

Looking at the sites you've chosen...
Green is great. Take that first. A nice early production powerhouse (pigs, copper, two grass-mines, and a plains-mine at size-5: net of 1F 16P).
Red is good (make it your third city, so your capital's borders have hopefully popped and brought the corn into your borders before you settle).
Pink is good. Probably your fourth city. The plains-hill will give it an extra hammer production right off the bat; sharing pigs with the capital will let it grow quickly. Chop a monument, and you can start working those floodplains to make this into a solid commerce city to help pay for your empire.
Blue is a little iffy. It's going to take a lot of work to deal with all those jungles and make it useful. Move it 1N like lymond suggests and you get better early growth, plus you get a few hills to help with early production. Not a bad city, although not earth-shaking... but I might put off that city for a while and settle more aggressively far afield instead, depending on how much AI competition you're up against for land.
None of the spots really jump out as an obvious GP farm - pink could fill that role, but then you need to find a way of getting your commerce somewhere else.

Thanks! I anticipated the border pop of the capital so the red city can work the corn. I like the idea of skipping blue for a more aggressively city further away. There are gems downthere so I might just try and grab these!


Thanks guys for all your input! These are all really valuable suggestions!
Cheers

[DanielTorrence]

What I have learned from here is your second city should be able to

a) grow fast (pigs are excellent for that) and
b) have a high hammer tile

so that it can pump and contribute early on. On higher levels, I think Immortal, the AI starts with two settlers, so you need to compete with that somehow.

Nice scouting, you revealed a lot of your surroundings. I am wondering if you meet anybody or if you are isolated? If there are neighbors, blocking becomes an issue. Preferably a hill city toward the AI, especially when they are aggressive.

[WJBG]

Originally Posted by DanielTorrence

What I have learned from here is your second city should be able to

a) grow fast (pigs are excellent for that) and
b) have a high hammer tile

so that it can pump and contribute early on. On higher levels, I think Immortal, the AI starts with two settlers, so you need to compete with that somehow.

Nice scouting, you revealed a lot of your surroundings. I am wondering if you meet anybody or if you are isolated? If there are neighbors, blocking becomes an issue. Preferably a hill city toward the AI, especially when they are aggressive.

The Celts start with a scout and right after founding the capital I built another one. So I was able to scout the surroundings pretty easily. Furthermore, both scouts popped a few huts for masonry, agriculture and 140+ gold.

Regarding my neighbours: Lincoln is south of me, Peter north of me and Alexandre east. Alexander is the closest, although he is not exactly on my doorstep. The land between myself and the Americans is nice and green, while the land north and east is more arid. I expect the most trouble from Alexander as he is aggressive and plan to settle at least a hill top city somewhere between him and me.

Cheers!

[lymond]

Just note that if you are Creative, you have more leeway on how you settle your city in terms of food/resources.

[DanielTorrence]

Originally Posted by WJBG

The land between myself and the Americans is nice and green, while the land north and east is more arid.

I assume since Hannibal is financial you plan on cottaging some places. Its recommended to do that early. Every turn you work a cottage counts, also with financial. Check the cities, sometimes the govenor does things like working a mine rather then your cottages.

For defense: four hill archers will hold back most things the AI can throw at you at this time in the game. Fit in a spear against HA and you should be golden. You could also try to bribe Alex into war with somebody else, using aesthetics or alpha or both.

Have fun with the map.

[WJBG]

Originally Posted by lymond

Just note that if you are Creative, you have more leeway on how you settle your city in terms of food/resources.

True! That is actually one of the reasons I like playing with creative leaders. However, in this game I am playing as Brennus who is spiritual and charismatic. The charismatic treat helps though, as monuments provide an additional happy face. So, I do actually plan on building these early in my new cities.

Originally Posted by DanielTorrence

I assume since Hannibal is financial you plan on cottaging some places. Its recommended to do that early. Every turn you work a cottage counts, also with financial. Check the cities, sometimes the govenor does things like working a mine rather then your cottages.

Thanks! Although, I'm not playing Hannibal, I am planning some early cottages in the red and purple city. I'll try to check the tile allocation after growth to prevent any weedy governor allocations!

Originally Posted by DanielTorrence

For defense: four hill archers will hold back most things the AI can throw at you at this time in the game. Fit in a spear against HA and you should be golden. You could also try to bribe Alex into war with somebody else, using aesthetics or alpha or both.

I'll probably also build some of those gallic warriors, who start with a guerrilla 1 promotion and should do fine on hills. I also understood that the Dun (wall replacement) provides a free guerilla I promotion for land units. Hmm... Does anyone has an idea what happens if I build a gallic warrior in a city with a Dun? Gives that a guerrilla 2 promotion?

Thanks for the tip on bribing Alex into war. I didn't think of that as a solution to any future problems. I've never been that good at the diplomatic part of the game, but this might be interesting to try.

Cheers

[coanda]

Don't worry so much about a DoW from Alex. With the amount of land available, if you just expand quickly and get a good road network, you'll always be able to insta-whip an army that can absolutely crush Alex if he's stupid enough to backstab you.

[DanielTorrence]

Originally Posted by WJBG

Thanks! Although, I'm not playing Hannibal...

I'll probably also build some of those gallic warriors, who start with a guerrilla 1 promotion and should do fine on hills. I also understood that the Dun (wall replacement) provides a free guerilla I promotion for land units. Hmm... Does anyone has an idea what happens if I build a gallic warrior in a city with a Dun? Gives that a guerrilla 2 promotion?

my mistake, mixed up the colours Since gallic warriors are a sword replacement, they are not very good at defense. The dun gives Guerrilla I to archers, longbows and crossbows, as well as to explorers and scouts, not to melee units.

Originally Posted by WJBG

Thanks for the tip on bribing Alex into war. I didn't think of that as a solution to any future problems.

Of course this could generate problems as well. Before construction, five hill archers (with a dun ) can withstand almost everthing he can throw at you that time. When you want to go that route make sure you have longbows when he has construction, because archers dont last long against catapults and elephants. I agree with coanda, better be prepared, but expand peacefully. Declaring on him is nice for farming GGs, but in my case did not always work out the way I wanted (e.g. enemy troops passing by my hill city)

[Skallagrimson]

Originally Posted by coanda

Don't worry so much about a DoW from Alex. With the amount of land available, if you just expand quickly and get a good road network, you'll always be able to insta-whip an army that can absolutely crush Alex if he's stupid enough to backstab you.

Size 2-3 cities won't insta-whip axemen. Not defending along an Alex border is simply a prolonged restart back to the point you made such a mistake.