C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Koshling]

Originally Posted by EldrinFal

I think it's also important to point out that not everyone changes Civics constantly. Personally, with my style of play, I build up my Civics as they become available, evaluating new ones against the one I currently use, but once the "best" ones are available-- and I mean "best" in MY opinion of them-- I typically just sit on those for most or all of the game. I usually change a Civic only if it's very weighted to either war or anti-war, and I need to swing the other way, either short or long term.

But just because I prefer 1 or 2 Civics, doesn't mean they are OP. It just means I value them above others. And Civics *I* use may not even be the same ones other players use.

Maybe we should get some stats on what people do tend to like. Personally I like GP and science modifiers a lot, so I tend to use pacifism and free church for example. I pretty much never use slavery (hate negative growth modifiers).

[EldrinFal]

Originally Posted by Koshling

Maybe we should get some stats on what people do tend to like. Personally I like GP and science modifiers a lot, so I tend to use pacifism and free church for example. I pretty much never use slavery (hate negative growth modifiers).

Sure. If people want to post that would be great. Do you mean specific modifiers? Or specific Civics?

I tend to favor those aspects as well, but I'll choose Slavery earlier in the game for the slave units and whipping benefits. Although with growth as it is now, whipping REALLY has to be considered carefully.

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by Koshling

Maybe we should get some stats on what people do tend to like. Personally I like GP and science modifiers a lot, so I tend to use pacifism and free church for example. I pretty much never use slavery (hate negative growth modifiers).

I go for GP first and science second so yes pacifism and free church with very quick less than 10 turn wars. I use slavery until guilds become available. In fact I skip barter because I usually get slavery 9-10 turns after barter.

[BlueGenie]

Science, Trade Routes, Trade Route yield, and commerce bonuses is what I primarily look for in Civics. Secondary is reduced growth cost for cities, GP rate, and keeping rebellions down. Lastly it's income.

Anything that reduces the primary or secondary I try to avoid if possible.
Culture isn't even a factor for me in Civics. It's not really hard to get a load of Culture as it stands now (maybe consider increasing requirements for Culture Levels?) so negative or positive culture doesn't matter much.


Speaking of Trade Routes; if anything is overpowered in the game it's Trade Routes. Noticed in one game where I was alone on a smaller continent that my science didn't get up as much as it usually does. Didn't think much of it until after I got Astronomy Navigation and got TR with the rest of the world. Science suddenly shot up from roughly 3k to past 7500.
Trade with foreign nations should be good for you, of course, but should it really be attributed to over 60% of your science income? That's like having a cake and eating it too when coupled with Tech Diffusion (which also didn't kick in until I had contact with the rest of the world).
75000 Science Beakers needed for a tech would have been 25 turns. After contact and TR it was 7 turns. Of course this was on any tech I had skipped and thus got a bunch of diffusion help with.

Mmm, sorry, got a bit off kelter there...

Cheers

[EldrinFal]

Originally Posted by BlueGenie

Science, Trade Routes, Trade Route yield, and commerce bonuses is what I primarily look for in Civics. Secondary is reduced growth cost for cities, GP rate, and keeping rebellions down. Lastly it's income.

Anything that reduces the primary or secondary I try to avoid if possible.
Culture isn't even a factor for me in Civics. It's not really hard to get a load of Culture as it stands now (maybe consider increasing requirements for Culture Levels?) so negative or positive culture doesn't matter much.


Speaking of Trade Routes; if anything is overpowered in the game it's Trade Routes. Noticed in one game where I was alone on a smaller continent that my science didn't get up as much as it usually does. Didn't think much of it until after I got Astronomy Navigation and got TR with the rest of the world. Science suddenly shot up from roughly 3k to past 7500.
Trade with foreign nations should be good for you, of course, but should it really be attributed to over 60% of your science income? That's like having a cake and eating it too when coupled with Tech Diffusion (which also didn't kick in until I had contact with the rest of the world).
75000 Science Beakers needed for a tech would have been 25 turns. After contact and TR it was 7 turns. Of course this was on any tech I had skipped and thus got a bunch of diffusion help with.

Mmm, sorry, got a bit off kelter there...

Cheers

Those observations are great actually. I'm not sure all the ins-and-outs of trade, but I recall seeing big bonuses on ThoricFlame's screenshot awhile back. I have not reached very far in a game in quite awhile and did not look for that even when I did.

I think one of the other modders mentioned that trade scaled, perhaps it should be looked into at some point to see if it's going overboard. If you have a save, I'm sure Koshling would be willing to take a look when he gets time.

[JosEPh_II]

Originally Posted by AIAndy

Really, JosEPh, we have full control over the AI decision procedure. If we see it using a civic too often, then we can just change that procedure at its core by changing the value the AI assigns to the different civic modifiers and not by changing the balance of the civic.

So ask yourself (and give feedback based on that):
If you were a player trying for the optimal choice of civic, would you always choose that civic?
If the answer is yes, then we have a balance problem and the right action is changing the civic.
If no (you would choose different civics in different situations), then no change of the civic is needed. But in this case we get to the second question.
Does the AI always or at least far too often choose that civic?
If yes, then it seems like the AI overvalues the civic (as the answer to question 1 was that a player would choose varied options). The correct action is to find out why the AI overvalues the civic and change the decision procedure accordingly.

Well Andy I hope you do have control over it. That's not been the case up till recently if it is in fact now controlled. Who notices the AI overusing a Civic? Do you, or Koshling or Hydro or DH or SO or Eldrin,etc., etc.? Who besides me and my sqwacking?

Most of the Civics now used are IMHO bloated and have been for sometime. And as such are in danger losing their focus(if they have not done so already). It seems the Civics are trying to cover too many bases and aspects of the game beyond their original intended scope and/or category.

As to your ?s.
1.Yes I try to use what I "think" is Optimal for my play style. I "want" to win when I play, so I do use certain Civics and disregard others because of How I play.
2. Again Yes the AI does overvalue various Civics and Slavery is/was one of the worst cases. (Pacifism was too but that's been addressed, IMHO it still needs to be eliminated from the Military Civics ).

@Eldrin,
I know you've put much effort into this, and that my criticism is late in coming forth. You did ask awhile back for it. Thank you for your effort in revising the Civics even if I don't always agree.

JosEPh

[little_cyclone]

Regarding slavery,

Low Upkeep (down from Medium)

I have to agree with adjusting the upkeep to High. Regardless of how well a nation may or may not treat subjects under bondage, they are still not considered citizens, and as such escape attempts will be made. Therefore the upkeep to High would represent a police system needed to be in place to monitor, control, prevent, search for, and return any wayward slaves.

The trade elements I thought made sense because Slave trade was a huge business. But perhaps the +1 route AND +10 income are overboard, so I can tone that down.

I'd also like to see the bonus commerce and trade routes reduced/eliminated. Is a slave really going to work harder then a free person who is fully compensated for their efforts? I think the fact that you can have unlimited slaves would well balance out the absence of the trade route and income bonus.

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by BlueGenie

It's not really hard to get a load of Culture as it stands now (maybe consider increasing requirements for Culture Levels?) so negative or positive culture doesn't matter much.

I have suggested this before, since we introduced the prehistoric era in fact. I never got around to suggesting actual values.

Originally Posted by JosEPh_II

Well Andy I hope you do have control over it. That's not been the case up till recently if it is in fact now controlled. Who notices the AI overusing a Civic? Do you, or Koshling or Hydro or DH or SO or Eldrin,etc., etc.? Who besides me and my sqwacking?

Most of the Civics now used are IMHO bloated and have been for sometime. And as such are in danger losing their focus(if they have not done so already). It seems the Civics are trying to cover too many bases and aspects of the game beyond their original intended scope and/or category.

As to your ?s.
1.Yes I try to use what I "think" is Optimal for my play style. I "want" to win when I play, so I do use certain Civics and disregard others because of How I play.
2. Again Yes the AI does overvalue various Civics and Slavery is/was one of the worst cases. (Pacifism was too but that's been addressed, IMHO it still needs to be eliminated from the Military Civics ).

@Eldrin,
I know you've put much effort into this, and that my criticism is late in coming forth. You did ask awhile back for it. Thank you for your effort in revising the Civics even if I don't always agree.

JosEPh

To be honest, I have never looked at that aspect of the game when I am playing. I a more interested at the moment in getting a set of diverse ecologies of wild animals and making sure the AI is building the new improvements I put in.

[Hydromancerx]

Originally Posted by Dancing Hoskuld

To be honest, I have never looked at that aspect of the game when I am playing. I a more interested at the moment in getting a set of diverse ecologies of wild animals and making sure the AI is building the new improvements I put in.

Yeah I don't think there should be an optimal way to play. That's one reason I like putting in diversity and different ways to play. Everything from being a "builder" to being a "war monger". There are positives and negatives for doing anything in the game and that's wait I am aiming for.

If you want to be a super wealthy trader who buys techs and alliances you should be able to. If you like the brainy route you should be able to. If you want to be a super diplomat or a religious fanatic or a strong armed dictator you should be able to. Each should give you some benefits and some negative consequences.

The game too should influence you such as the terrain you end up in. If you work with your terrain you should have an easier time but if you fight it then its harder. Such as wanting to have land wars when your on islands. If you don't research boat techs you will have a herder time. On the other hand if you say have elephants but no horses you should take advantage of he elephants and not be sad that you have no horses.

Same goes for any other resource, who your neighbors are and so on.

[AIAndy]

Originally Posted by JosEPh_II

Well Andy I hope you do have control over it. That's not been the case up till recently if it is in fact now controlled. Who notices the AI overusing a Civic? Do you, or Koshling or Hydro or DH or SO or Eldrin,etc., etc.? Who besides me and my sqwacking?

I think you missed the point. You will notice it foremost and therefore your feedback is valuable and I just wanted to point out how your feedback is most valuable to us. Having full control does not mean it is perfect, it means that we (mainly Koshling) can change the code to make it better. There is no need to make a civic weaker if it is actually fine from a balance point of view but overused by the AI.

Most of the Civics now used are IMHO bloated and have been for sometime. And as such are in danger losing their focus(if they have not done so already). It seems the Civics are trying to cover too many bases and aspects of the game beyond their original intended scope and/or category.

As to your ?s.
1.Yes I try to use what I "think" is Optimal for my play style. I "want" to win when I play, so I do use certain Civics and disregard others because of How I play.
2. Again Yes the AI does overvalue various Civics and Slavery is/was one of the worst cases. (Pacifism was too but that's been addressed, IMHO it still needs to be eliminated from the Military Civics ).

The questions were meant as a kind of checklist to go through when giving feedback about civics or similar balance points.

The main point: When you give feedback, we would like to know if you think civic/building/unit X is too strong or if you think that the AI overuses it or both.

[EldrinFal]

Originally Posted by AIAndy

I think you missed the point. You will notice it foremost and therefore your feedback is valuable and I just wanted to point out how your feedback is most valuable to us. Having full control does not mean it is perfect, it means that we (mainly Koshling) can change the code to make it better. There is no need to make a civic weaker if it is actually fine from a balance point of view but overused by the AI.

I agree and think most feedback is useful. Criticism too. Especially differing perspectives. But feedback and criticism needs supporting arguments and ideally offer solutions. Otherwise it's just ranting

The main point: When you give feedback, we would like to know if you think civic/building/unit X is too strong or if you think that the AI overuses it or both.

I'd like to qualify that, in my perspective, I think that by itself "you" can't say that just because the AI uses a Civic a lot doesn't mean it is automatically OP and needs to be changed.

If I make a list of my own top 3 Civics in one category, I'm going to use #1 the most and #2 less often. Those might be the only two I EVER use. But that doesn't mean my #1 is OP. It COULD. But not necessarily.

However, if I nerfed my #1 choice, now I have a new #1 (#2 from before) and now I might use THAT Civic all the time. Does that mean it is OP now? Maybe, maybe not.

Ideally I WOULD like a decent balance in Civics, but the basis of that needs to reflect their usefulness compared to the other Civics in the category.

[EldrinFal]

Originally Posted by JosEPh_II

Well Andy I hope you do have control over it. That's not been the case up till recently if it is in fact now controlled. Who notices the AI overusing a Civic? Do you, or Koshling or Hydro or DH or SO or Eldrin,etc., etc.? Who besides me and my sqwacking?

So now that some changes were made to the AI and animals, I ran another test game up to 750 turns, stopping every 100-200 turns to check the progress.

As it happens, the AI isn't changing Civics ENOUGH. For 150 turns my civ had Barter and didn't change to it, when across the board it is a better Civic than Communalism as far as I could tell. Additionally, another 200 turns, Slavery is discovered in that time, and STILL the AI has not changed from Communalism. Same applies to Anarchism and Chiefdom: haven't changed to the latter (though the duration is less since Chiefdom was discovered more recently.)

[EldrinFal]

Originally Posted by EldrinFal

So now that some changes were made to the AI and animals, I ran another test game up to 750 turns, stopping every 100-200 turns to check the progress.

As it happens, the AI isn't changing Civics ENOUGH. For 150 turns my civ had Barter and didn't change to it, when across the board it is a better Civic than Communalism as far as I could tell. Additionally, another 200 turns, Slavery is discovered in that time, and STILL the AI has not changed from Communalism. Same applies to Anarchism and Chiefdom: haven't changed to the latter (though the duration is less since Chiefdom was discovered more recently.)

Ok, so ironically enough, my civ discovered Caste System on turn 751 and THEN the AI made the Civic change. It changed to 3: Prophets, Caste, and Barter. Chiefdom is available, but it didn't choose that. Slavery is also available, and didn't choose that either. It seems to me the AI likes changing 3 Civics at a time, but I think 200 turns or so is a bit long to wait to change a Civic that clearly is superior to a current one.

Posting the turn right before the AI decides on the Civic change and goes to Anarchy.

[Koshling]

One of the things I said I'd look at improving in V19 was AI civic choices, to take more account of their traits/personality so as to provide more variance. I've been investigating this today, and it turns out all the necessary code is already there, and the problem is an XML one.

Basically in evaluating something, part of the process involves a flavor calculation (this applies to civics and buildings). Essentailly what is does is:

For each flavor type (FLAVOR_GOLD, FLAVOR_MILITARY, etc.) it takes the flavor value defined in its leaderhead info, and multiplies it by the same flavor's value defined in the object being evaluated (civic for the purposes of this discussion).

The leaderhead aspect is all fine. Here is an example (this is Asoka):

			<Flavors>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>5</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_SCIENCE</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
			</Flavors>

The problem is the civics. Most of them don't define any flavor values, which means they all default to 0 and flavor contributes nothing to their evaluation. Hence all AIs pick the same ones in the same circumstances.

A few civics do define them. Here is Coinage:

			<Flavors>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GOLD</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>6</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GROWTH</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
			</Flavors>

@EldrinFal - since you seem to have inherrited the mantle of Mr. Civics, could you possibly go through and add whatever you deem appropriate flavor values to those that don't have them please. The above example shows the magnitude of the numbers needed (single figures, can be positive or negative, so a pacifistic leader might have a small negative military flavor for example)

[EldrinFal]

Originally Posted by Koshling

@EldrinFal - since you seem to have inherrited the mantle of Mr. Civics, could you possibly go through and add whatever you deem appropriate flavor values to those that don't have them please. The above example shows the magnitude of the numbers needed (single figures, can be positive or negative, so a pacifistic leader might have a small negative military flavor for example)

Ok. I'll add that to my to-do list.

@Hydro Did you want to adjust the Civics in your folder? Or did you want me to do it?

[JosEPh_II]

JosEPh

[Hydromancerx]

Should the Eduction, Garbage, Immigration and Language civics be added to the core? They have been around awhile now. And it would be easier to keep track of them if they were all in one file.

What do you guys think?

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by Hydromancerx

Should the Eduction, Garbage, Immigration and Language civics be added to the core? They have been around awhile now. And it would be easier to keep track of them if they were all in one file.

What do you guys think?

I never ever use the Immigration civics. I stay on whatever is the default. I would be all for removing it.

The others should be merged in.

[bill2505]

Originally Posted by Dancing Hoskuld

I never ever use the Immigration civics. I stay on whatever is the default. I would be all for removing it.

The others should be merged in.

why to remove them.just keep the outside the core

[Hydromancerx]

I noticed that in the civ info files it has ...

			<InitialCivics>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_ANARCHISM</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_OLIGARCHY</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_PRIMITIVE</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_COMMUNALISM</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_BANDITS</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_IRRELIGION</CivicType>	
				<CivicType>CIVIC_SURVIVAL</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_NOTRASH</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_NOBORDERS</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_IGNORANCE</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_NO_SPEAK</CivicType>
				<CivicType>CIVIC_NOFARM</CivicType>
			</InitialCivics>

Would adding them not in that order mess things up? Thus leaving out the Immigration mod would make it got to the end and thus not be listed 9th but instead be listed 12th.

And I guessing the order must go Garbage, Immigration, Education, Language, Agriculture. Right?

I personally do not see what the big deal is for Immigration since the default gives no benefits or penalties. Thus its like its not even there for those who don't use it.