Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[Leoreth]

I've forgot to mention that I've changed Communism's requirements to Liberalism, Scientific Method and (Steam Power or Corporation).

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Some thoughts on China having played a bit of the latest commit:

1) So it seems AIs won't accept Mathematics/Alphabet in the early game anymore.
That alone should be okay, but in conjunction with #2, makes the gameplay feel unbearable.
2) The Religion thing makes the game feel like Emperor, even though I'm playing on Monarch. Zhongdu (the Holy City for Taoism + Confucianism)
is at size 4 with 7 Unhappiness vs. 4 Happiness. I can't even begin to imagine how hard it feels playing India.
2.5) As a side effect of above 2 reasons, I spent about 21 or so turns trying to tech Calendar because my output was too low,
thanks to the lowered happy cap and AI refusal to trade basic things like Polytheism or Sailing most of the time.
3) Leoreth, did you expand their stability zone? Because I can't see which tiles are Contested anymore; either that, or you prevented Mongols from flipping them so we don't rush Mongols too.

[Fresol]

You might want to tech differently now. I would go for all the small techs and bulb Mathematics at turn 89 with a Great Scientist. Don't get Alphabet yourself, trade for it with Metal Casting later. Get in contact with Rome as early as possible because it allows you to trade your tech away (there must be a another known civ that has the tech before you can trade it away).

Expand quickly and use Taixue's scientist slots to do research.

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Yeah, I realize I'll have to tech differently now, which is why I said it'd be okay,
if #2, the religions thing wasn't there to completely make the game not feel like a game.
I'll admit that I didn't exactly understand what civ_king's issue with the religions change was at first, but now I completely understand.
It's completely unnecessary. Especially for India, of all civs.
And my argument to back it up is that it basically turns the difficulty level you are playing at to one higher than it actually is.
It only benefits Euro + Islamic civs that gameplay wise, you would expect to run just 1 religion, and they spawn at a time where they have access to
measures that would help them do so; but this is a severe blow to Eastern civs that should realistically not have such huge penalties for doing what
they intrinsically do; that is, to support a syncretic, generally tolerant religious environment through co-existence.

Also, I was doing that and using Scientist specialists but it was cutting into my maintenance like crazy.

EDIT: Realize that at Emperor, that means a city with just Confucianism, before Calendar resources, has a happy cap of 2.
At Calendar, with Dye + Silk, one essentially breaks even back at size 3.
Does no one else besides me see how wrong this is?
With Patriarche, it only marginally gets better.

[Fresol]

I think China is still quite fine (at least on Monarch) because you'll soon have Dynasticism and all the calendar resources to boost happiness. India has temples at least. And later happiness problem won't ever bother China again, it's the pitiful +1 modifier you need to worry about.

[AdrienIer]

Are there any actual example of "religious persecution" in, let's say, China ? Most eastern asian countries seem to have had a policy of mixing all the available religions to "create" their own beliefs, and never actually cared about your religion before the Abrahamic religions (mainly Islam and Catholicism) tried to take over and destroy their ancient belief (ex Japan). Therefore I'm not sure whether Buddhism and Taoism (perhaps even Hinduism) should really get happiness penalty for each other's presence. At least make it minor.

[Fresol]

I would say from a gameplay point of view, Taoism is completely useless, unless you're going for Chinese UHV, that is. There's no wonder associated to it; it wouldn't spread much on its own, so its shrine won't be helpful either. Now with the happiness penalty introduced, I usually let Persia found it instead.

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Yes. But it's fairly specific as I understand it.

Abrahamic faiths such as Judaism, Islam & the Jesuit sect of Catholicism, have always been accepted in China,
because they weren't invasive and tried to overtake the generally secular Chinese way of life.

Modern Protestantism, Falun Gong, and other historical cults, such as the Yellow Turbans & the movement that became the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom are dealt with extreme prejudice because they seek to not only subvert the state, but impose religious lifestyles on everyone and generally do not encourage coexistence, like how Buddhism & Taoism work. (Not to mention, there's some clearly screwed up crap that a lot of these faiths try to impose on society)

Read about the Kaifeng Jews of Song Dynasty China. Many Jews were officers in the Imperial Army
and the Emperor even dedicated a stele for them, commending their "boundless loyalty to the emperor".
The Muslim Hui Cavalry of the Republic of China were also very loyal (for the most part) and proved to be a continuous problem
for Japanese regiments that campaigned too far west into China.

Another example can be seen in Japan, with their Christian persecutions during the 1500s-1600s.

[iOnlySignIn]

Originally Posted by Fresol

I would say from a gameplay point of view, Taoism is completely useless, unless you're going for Chinese UHV, that is. There's no wonder associated to it; it wouldn't spread much on its own, so its shrine won't be helpful either. Now with the happiness penalty introduced, I usually let Persia found it instead.

LOL to me the point of Taoism for China is to send mass Missionaries into other civs (India, Persia), for

(1) Destabilizing them with Unhappiness

(2) Generating income for your Taoist Shrine

Best thing is when you spread Taoism early into Europe (e.g. Greece). They convert eventually and spread Taoism for you (Trade Meditation to them early), which sows further discord with Christian Europeans.

It's far from worthless. IMO still the more religions the better, especially when you take late game (Secularism) into consideration.

[Fresol]

Originally Posted by iOnlySignIn

LOL to me the point of Taoism for China is to send mass Missionaries into other civs (India, Persia), for

(1) Destabilizing them with Unhappiness

(2) Generating income for your Taoist Shrine

Best thing is when you spread Taoism early into Europe (e.g. Greece). They convert eventually and spread Taoism for you (Trade Meditation to them early), which sows further discord with Christian Europeans.

It's far from worthless. IMO still the more religions the better, especially when you take late game (Secularism) into consideration.

Unfortunately monasteries go obsolete after Scientific Method, the happiness bonus and Cathedrals are not that essential to me. And since I'm playing on Monarch level all the time, I get Catholicism. So if I'm to utilize the power of the Sistine Chapel, Taoism only causes unhappiness and instability. Besides, I may not be able to generate enough Great Prophets for all the shrines for a long time.

Sending missionaries to Persia wouldn't work too well I guess, since that land is destined to be Islamic at last. Maybe an early 50 hammer missionary is worth the price with shrine income in the long run, but why not send Confucian ones instead?

[iOnlySignIn]

Leoreth, I notice some changes to the 600 AD map, and I really dislike them.

For example, Cairo/Memphis seems to be moved to an even more ridiculous location - used to be 2S2E of Alexandria, now 1S2E. Upper Egypt also lost a few Flood Plains. In general the 600 AD map is messed up compare to 3000 BC - Anatolia for example has much less food.

I think there is a small chance I may have hallucinated this and that this is the way the maps have always been - but it still needs to be changed if that is the case.

IMO the strongest reason (apart from Stability, arguably) why RFC is more intense and eventful than regular BTS is because the maps offer many good city sites. Better city sites lead to more effective wars/tech/events. If certain civs need to be nerfed, it should be done via other sources than maps.

I (and I think many others, such as Fresol and TD) would also love to come up with a better 600 AD China map for you. For one thing, Confucian/Taoist Shrines should be in Shandong province (Qufu, on the Coast north shore of Yellow River).

[iOnlySignIn]

Originally Posted by Fresol

why not send Confucian ones instead?

I like to *really* postpone Terracotta Army, and even Great Wall/Porcelain Tower.

I think TA's only purpose is a minor Stability/Score boost (as is the case for all Wonders), and GW should be prioritized *after* Colosseum. PT is marginal now in the SVN version compared to the complete OPness it was before.

So yeah, I often build the Terracotta Army after Gunpowder. Not a good idea to spread Confucianism to foreign cities before then.

[Fresol]

I think the city and floodplains in Egypt have always been like that. The 2 floodplains in Sudan become desert after a certain year.

Also I think in the civilopedia it says Terratcotta Army can only be built on Classical and earlier starts?

[iOnlySignIn]

Originally Posted by Fresol

It think the city and floodplains in Egypt have always been like that. The 2 floodplains in Sudan become desert after a certain year.

So I *did* hallucinate all of those. Do the seafood in the Eastern Black Sea disappear too? How about Memphis? I have a distinct memory that it used to be 1S of where it is now.

In any case, both in 3000 BC and 600 AD the Caucasus needs a major buff. It's completely worthless now until Combustion (for the 1 Baku Oil).

Originally Posted by Fresol

I think in the civilopedia it says Terratcotta Army can only be built on Classical and earlier starts?

For 3000 BC China, you are playing an Ancient start. TA does not obsolete. You can build it in the 21st century.

600 AD yes, it's a Medieval start so you can't build TA.

[Fresol]

Originally Posted by iOnlySignIn

So I *did* hallucinate all of those. Do the seafood in the Eastern Black Sea disappear too? How about Memphis? I have a distinct memory that it used to be 1S of where it is now.

In any case, both in 3000 BC and 600 AD the Caucasus needs a major buff. It's completely worthless now until Combustion (for the 1 Baku Oil).


For 3000 BC China, you are playing an Ancient start. TA does not obsolete. You can build it in the 21st century.

600 AD yes, it's a Medieval start so you can't build TA.

My typo was quoted.

The clam disappears, yeah, but there's some new sheep near Baghdad, and cotton in Egypt. Marble in Egypt has been moved 1S, and Memphis is 2N of the Egypt capital in 3000 BC map. There are quite a few other differences I guess, for example the wheat near Tunis/Tripoli is moved, the wheat in Anatolia is also moved (pity it can't ever be irrigated).

And about Terracotta Army, if you edit yourself all the techs, you won't be able to build it anymore (but you can build the Great Wall still). I wonder what's the thing that prevents its building.

Edit: fixed a couple of things.

[Leoreth]

All of these map changes are far from recent, though. All I did in the area was to give Jerusalem a hill.

I also think that removing the unhappiness for Confucianism/Taoism or Hinduism/Buddhism combinations if one both is the state religion would be a good idea.

[iOnlySignIn]

I guess I just haven't played 600 AD in quite a while due to how much I hate mega-Spain.

In any case, please consider buffing the Caucasus and eastern Black Sea basin.

I'll make a new 600 AD Chinese Independents map and show a screenshot later.

I'm also making an extensive tweak to many ancient/classical civs' starting locations so that they are less likely to found crap cities (hopefully).

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

AIs are programmed not to consciously found cities on top of resources, yes?

[Fresol]

Originally Posted by Tomorrow's Dawn

AIs are programmed not to consciously found cities on top of resources, yes?

Not necessarily I guess, though it could be one of the factors. They do tend to found small closely placed cities, while the human player always aims to work the full 21 tiles of the city.

Edit: Glad to see Seljuks do not pop out of Sur anymore.

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Please go over my first revision of the China map.

EDIT: Ugh, it's invalid. Okay, lemme upload a screenshot instead,