Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[King Coltrane]

@ thor:

if you are giving the -1 happiness for cows in hindu cities, why not do the same for pigs in muslim ones?

confucian: -10% trade route yield, +10% food, +% science per building. (confucianism emphasizes agriculture and science [as TD said] while frowning upon trade.

taoist: +1 health, +1 great general point? the health makes sense (think of taoist alchemists... even if it wasnt realistic. also of the longevity of taoist sages. ill admit that for the GG point im mostly thinking of Zhuge Liang haha)

for zoroastrianism i would switch the percentages you have for war weariness and culture. theres only gonna be a handful of zoro cities, as well as only one wonder... why not make the buildings powerful.

buddhist food bonus makes no sense. buddhists monks traditionally survive on alms (daily donations of rice/food from surrounding areas). i mean this doesnt account for all the population, but i think its enough to not have a food bonus. instead i would recommend -5%(?) food and +10% great person points.

i would also make cities with confucianism and buddhism have +1 unhappiness, as this was a major source of tension, as confucianism emphasized the family while buddhism eschewed these responsibilities.

otherwise i kinda like the changes.

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

^Ming Dynasty practiced an early form of capitalism so it's not unreasonable to have no trade penalty. Also, remember that trade between China & Persia/Ferghana/Bactria was common as well, regardless of social strictire. Certain aspects of the tributary system as well, were basically just the ancient equivalent of a trade agreement, something many kingdoms were eager to acquire with China, at the cost of often a trade imbalance or symbolic submission; as it would still be profitable to trade with China either way.

Besides, Confucian buildings would be much less competitive than Hindu buildings with the -Trade, who do somewhat of the same thing from what you're suggesting.

[strijder20]

Originally Posted by Caesar Augustus

I was testing out the new City States with Indonesia. It was working beautifully until I had to load my save. Now my specialists no longer get the bonus food.

In case it isn't fixed yet : Enter world-builder, add the Christo Redentor to one of your cities, switch to any other government civic. Then save your game, load it again and switch back to City States the next turn.

[Caesar Augustus]

Originally Posted by strijder20

In case it isn't fixed yet : Enter world-builder, add the Christo Redentor to one of your cities, switch to any other government civic. Then save your game, load it again and switch back to City States the next turn.

I figured something like that would work, but it's not that important to me to continue that particular game; it was mostly an experiment and a badly-timed plague (and a bit too much whipping) ruined my chance of getting the population goal anyway. I'll just give it another try once the kinks are worked out

[Leoreth]

Never considered Indonesia when I thought up the civic. But it's no problem that they become a little easier.

[Thor Macklin]

And of course I missed the post swarm XD.

Hmm point there on the pig penatly. ANd I was indeed thinking of giving a penalty. Certainly would give the whole religion a unique edge.
And YES to the Taoist Alchemist idea...why? Because Alchemists are awesome and that is the only reason. Heck if I could I'd add "Heavy Metal" as a resource and it give 100+ Happiness XD

So let me see if I got it all:
Confucism gets a science/Reduced maintenance/food bonus

Taoism: +1 Specalist/+1 Health/+1 XP

Confuciasm: +%10 Science/+%10 Food/-%10 Maintenance

Buddhism: +2 Happiness/+%5 Great Person/Dirt Low Monastary Production Cost (XP Bonus Maybe?)

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Also quick blurb.

There isn't a whole lot of tension between Confucianism & Buddhism, if at all.
I have NO IDEA what King Coltrane is talking about (no offense).
East Asian religious habits are predicated on syncreticism,
mostly due to the fact that the view on religion, for the most part
is not: God = religion.

[Thor Macklin]

Yes although I AM ignorant of eastern religions (save for orthodoxy) I cannot think of a predominate Taoist/Confucist Diety.

But thoughts on the changes?

[iOnlySignIn]

Originally Posted by Thor Macklin

Confuciasm: +%10 Science/+%10 Food/-%10 Maintenance

The recipe for world domination, right there. You have no idea how much I can abuse this. Or anything else you come up with, for that matter. Wonders cost hammers, can be conquered, and obsolete after a time. If you unbalance the religions themselves you unbalance the whole game.

I suggest we keep these flavors for different religions for our personal use only (I do - I keep some customized XML codes to play with). IF you don't want an endless sh!tstorm. There is a reason why Civ IV made all religions equal and Civ V removed religions altogether, just saying. I'm OK with an endless sh!tstorm though.

[Thor Macklin]

ha ha I knnow what you mean XD I gave the english stock exchange +1 Global trade route PER building. That was mean of me XD

So what if I cut it down to say %5?

oh btw how do I add the commerce bbonus to protestant bbuildings?

And as for the changes I think all of them accurately describe the benefits each religion added whilst not denouncing any.

[King Coltrane]

@TD:

No offense taken. Because you are wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Bu...tions_in_China


if you read about early buddhism in china (ie inter-dynastic pseudo-anarchy, sui, and tang dynasties) you see that it was a complicated matter. some regional kings accepted it while others saw the contradiction between the ancestor worship/reverence of confucianism (upon which the bureaucracy as well as much of chinese culture, was based) and the desire to free the soul from samsara through meditation and abandonment of worldly concerns (as well as the lack of having children). most decided to stick with the older confucian traditions since those had been working well.

most persecutions came from pressure from confucians (and taoists to a lesser extent) who didnt want to grant special privilege to the buddhists, who they deemed a drain on society.


so even if buddhism did spread throughout china korea and japan, it was not universally accepted and it inherently contradicted fundamental precepts of the centralized ancestor-worshiping confucian ideology.

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

^I would take a lot of issue with that; because you are treating Confucianism as a religion,
and not as it is, a philosophy. Which by the way, is separate from the ancestor-worship cult
of the Shang Dynasty. The syncreticism with which I speak of is how the regular Chinese citizen takes aspects of Confucianism, Taoism & Buddhism and incorporates them into their lives,
without investing overtly in any (save Confucianism).

Persecutions did not happen because they were religious. That has never, ever been the case.
Persecutions happened in China because they threatened the state. This is true of the Taoist Yellow Turban Rebellion, the rebellion led by the Ming Dynasty founder (who was originally a Buddhist monk) and numerous others. And during these so-called persecutions, it didn't stop regular people from committing to Buddhism & Taoism, etc. because Chinese people/the governments are able to make the distinctions.

I'll write more about this in a bit. But I am not wrong.

[iOnlySignIn]

I'm with TD on this. The persecutions of Buddhism in China were done purely for economic and political reasons. It is not a religious in nature at all - it's more like Philip IV of France's persecution of the Knights Templar (which he did NOT do because he's staunchly pagan or Muslim ).

Originally Posted by King Coltrane

the contradiction between the ancestor worship/reverence of confucianism (upon which the bureaucracy as well as much of chinese culture, was based) and the desire to free the soul from samsara through meditation and abandonment of worldly concerns (as well as the lack of having children). most decided to stick with the older confucian traditions since those had been working well

"I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Originally Posted by Thor Macklin

Yes although I AM ignorant of eastern religions (save for orthodoxy) I cannot think of a predominate Taoist/Confucist Diety.

But thoughts on the changes?

Nüwa: The half serpent creator goddess who fashioned common man from mud.
Fu Xi: Nüwa's brother-husband who survived the Great Flood with her.
Xiwangmu: Queen Mother of the West; patron goddess of women among other things; holds secrets of immortality.
Jade Emperor: Ruler of Tian/Tien (Heaven), but ranked below the three pure ones.
Among others.

There is no predominant deity per se in Taoism.
Hence, part of the reason why religion as life in China never really caught on.

[Leoreth]

Originally Posted by iOnlySignIn

I'm with TD on this. The persecutions of Buddhism in China were done purely for economic and political reasons. It is not a religious in nature at all - it's more like Philip IV of France's persecution of the Knights Templar (which he did NOT do because he's staunchly pagan or Muslim ).

Accusing the Templars of Catharism was not below him though

[Caesar Augustus]

Originally Posted by Leoreth

Never considered Indonesia when I thought up the civic. But it's no problem that they become a little easier.

Yeah, Indonesia works really well with city states... or at least it would, if the bonus food didn't disappear when loading a save. Do we know why that's happening?

[Thor Macklin]

SO anyway..ignoring the religious discussion XD

I tried to make modifications to the Protestant missionary and I get the message: (very paraphrased)

UniqueName does not match UniqueNames

I did not touch the tags I assure you.

But in other news the Orthodox change seems to work very well. Newly founded orthodox cities can get a good boost from the +5 Hammer (The RUssian Monks did assist in colonizing siberia I've heard. Correct me if I'm wrong)

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Originally Posted by Thor Macklin

SO anyway..ignoring the religious discussion XD

I tried to make modifications to the Protestant missionary and I get the message: (very paraphrased)

UniqueName does not match UniqueNames

I did not touch the tags I assure you.

But in other news the Orthodox change seems to work very well. Newly founded orthodox cities can get a good boost from the +5 Hammer (The RUssian Monks did assist in colonizing siberia I've heard. Correct me if I'm wrong)

I think it was mostly Cossacks, but I'm not denying that the monks didn't have a hand in it. Hope my mini-Taoist deity post was helpful too.

[Thor Macklin]

Well yes but from a smaller source I heard that for northern areas of siberia Monks played a crucial role in the expansion. So I hear anyway.

And indeed it did my thanks!

[eel]

I've tried the new Italy and I'm quite confused as what is exactly considered "75% of the Mediterranean" since i currently control this:

and according to the counter it's only 47.53% of Mediterranean territory.