Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[Leoreth]

There are some good tutorials out there that tell you how to set up the compiler. I can give you some pointers once you've done that.

[jammerculture]

Has anyone had any success with Italy? I keep getting beat to the wonders, in time frames that I'm pretty sure are unreachable. Leoreth, is Italy good to go in the latest SVN?

City states: first off effect basically makes specialists cost one food, as one is replaced. The Italian peninsula, however, is very food rich and happy poor, so I get lots of unhappiness. The net effect is the civ effect has no effect, at least in the beginning stages that I am playing before rage quitting, that is the extra food just goes to feed the hippies. Combine this with each city having one or two high production tiles, and the whip is more or less useless as well, as everything is a one pop whip after one turn of construction. I'm thinking maybe I just need to load the peninsula with four cities, which will spread the food around and potentially create a better use of the power. Will attempt this next.

However, I feel that the city state effect, while a good idea on paper, does not create the desired goal. I will continue to play around with it in an attempt to figure it out. I just needed to vent after being beat to Sistine Chapel for the fourth time!!!!!

[iOnlySignIn]

Originally Posted by jammerculture

The Italian peninsula, however, is very food rich and happy poor, so I get lots of unhappiness.

Theatres + Amphitheatres + full Cultural Slider means virtually infinite Happiness. You even have a Cultural UHV to synergize with it.

Also, if you really have too much Food (you shouldn't - you should be running 3 Artists per city plus various other Specialists), spam Levies. Levies cost food to build (like Workers, so building them stops your cities from growing) and are very cost-effective, and they upgrade into Pikes.

However, I do think Art Studio could use another Artist slot (for a total of 2 Artist slots). Perhaps remove the +25% Culture for balance, or reduce it to +10% or +15%.

[jammerculture]

duh

I have an aversion to artists, so never even thought of that, but I can totally see how in this situation it would work (and be quite obvious if i bothered to think about it)

[artyom]

Originally Posted by jammerculture

Has anyone had any success with Italy? I keep getting beat to the wonders, in time frames that I'm pretty sure are unreachable. Leoreth, is Italy good to go in the latest SVN?

City states: first off effect basically makes specialists cost one food, as one is replaced. The Italian peninsula, however, is very food rich and happy poor, so I get lots of unhappiness. The net effect is the civ effect has no effect, at least in the beginning stages that I am playing before rage quitting, that is the extra food just goes to feed the hippies. Combine this with each city having one or two high production tiles, and the whip is more or less useless as well, as everything is a one pop whip after one turn of construction. I'm thinking maybe I just need to load the peninsula with four cities, which will spread the food around and potentially create a better use of the power. Will attempt this next.

However, I feel that the city state effect, while a good idea on paper, does not create the desired goal. I will continue to play around with it in an attempt to figure it out. I just needed to vent after being beat to Sistine Chapel for the fourth time!!!!!

try to capture northern africa asap with italy. hire knights and other mercenaries as soon as you capture naples from byzantium to go sail and attack and capture all of northern africa to gain control of its happy resources. if the arabs control it, it may be too hard and you'd have to restart and hope the egyptians control it.
the difficulty I had with italy a few hours ago is that I lacked enough army production and everyone was declaring war on me. my science was insane with the representation/free market/city states combo, but i lacked the necessary unit production to fend off invaders from the 2 goal UHV and other constant attacks from germany/france so I just ragequit at 1670

[iOnlySignIn]

Originally Posted by jammerculture

I have an aversion to artists

Then why play Italy?

It's like saying you have an aversion to mountains, while on holiday in Nepal or Switzerland.

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Originally Posted by jammerculture

duh

I have an aversion to artists, so never even thought of that, but I can totally see how in this situation it would work (and be quite obvious if i bothered to think about it)

That makes me sad

[jammerculture]

just mean that I never use artists, but your right it makes perfect sense. i just couldn't see it since I typically hire scientists/engineers/merchants in that order. come to think of it, I have never even won a cultural victory ever.

why I love this mod, the different civs are so unique, leoreth has done so much to make each civ's challenge individual

[borhap88]

Originally Posted by jammerculture

Has anyone had any success with Italy? I keep getting beat to the wonders, in time frames that I'm pretty sure are unreachable. Leoreth, is Italy good to go in the latest SVN?

City states: first off effect basically makes specialists cost one food, as one is replaced. The Italian peninsula, however, is very food rich and happy poor, so I get lots of unhappiness. The net effect is the civ effect has no effect, at least in the beginning stages that I am playing before rage quitting, that is the extra food just goes to feed the hippies. Combine this with each city having one or two high production tiles, and the whip is more or less useless as well, as everything is a one pop whip after one turn of construction. I'm thinking maybe I just need to load the peninsula with four cities, which will spread the food around and potentially create a better use of the power. Will attempt this next.

However, I feel that the city state effect, while a good idea on paper, does not create the desired goal. I will continue to play around with it in an attempt to figure it out. I just needed to vent after being beat to Sistine Chapel for the fourth time!!!!!

My strategy in the only game I achieved the first 2 UHV was: 1 Great Merchant, 2 Great Engineers to build San Marco in Venice and the Leaning Tower in Florence, Sistine Chapel built in Rome as soon as I discovered Music, so I achieved the 1st UHV just in time, then I rate my culture to 90%, then I obtained 2 Great Artists and build Versailles in Venice and a catholic cathedral in Florence. The cultural explosion will asurre to you the control of Balkans (here, let found Durazzo whenever Konstantipol falls), of Marseille (it'll flip to you) and of Neaples. I sent my troops to conquer Tripoli and Tunis during 16th century. I played until 1650-60 and I took Konstantinopol, donated by Barbarossa, Athen and Wien, which flipped to me. So I stopped my game, it was becoming too boring because of Italian 3rd UHV that I don't really like.

I have to say that I don't find any civs that moved war on me and not very strong resistance in Rome.

[Leoreth]

Originally Posted by jammerculture

Has anyone had any success with Italy? I keep getting beat to the wonders, in time frames that I'm pretty sure are unreachable. Leoreth, is Italy good to go in the latest SVN?

Unless I get some feedback telling me otherwise, I think it is. Never managed to get the first goal myself (best was getting the Sistine Chapel in 1500 AD), but I definitely focused too much on creating artists in that game. Most Renaissance GPs for Italy are artists or engineers and that's already a good hint for what to do So get out three great engineers (or two, there's enough time to build the first wonder you research on your own) and then focus on artists. Other great people are less valuable.

I haven't tried to do it the other way around and bulb my way to the required techs, but at least this way it can work.

City states: first off effect basically makes specialists cost one food, as one is replaced. The Italian peninsula, however, is very food rich and happy poor, so I get lots of unhappiness. The net effect is the civ effect has no effect, at least in the beginning stages that I am playing before rage quitting, that is the extra food just goes to feed the hippies. Combine this with each city having one or two high production tiles, and the whip is more or less useless as well, as everything is a one pop whip after one turn of construction. I'm thinking maybe I just need to load the peninsula with four cities, which will spread the food around and potentially create a better use of the power. Will attempt this next.

However, I feel that the city state effect, while a good idea on paper, does not create the desired goal. I will continue to play around with it in an attempt to figure it out. I just needed to vent after being beat to Sistine Chapel for the fourth time!!!!!

Losing Dynasticism is a deliberate aspect of City States - if your cities get large, you need happiness. It's not that hard for Italy imo, you have dyes and wine, and ivory in North Africa if you need to. Once you can stop with research you get enough happiness from culture anyway.

Maybe I can bring back the +1 happiness with marble for Art Studio though.

[Cosmos1985]

Artists + happiness + specialist effects... I get reminded of my old suggestion of letting artists give a happy face as well. You get happy faces from building theaters and other cultural buildings, and by spending "money" on the culture slider, why don't then also from hiring an artist, which by all means have the same effects?

[Leoreth]

Because that would be overpowered

[Barak]

Just started a game as Italy (600ad) and on my third turn (when Venice flips) I get a message that San Marco has been build in a far away land.

[Tigranes]

Originally Posted by Leoreth

Yeah. I've forbidden the German AI from disbanding their units completely and they do much better now, maybe the game needs a general rule that stops the AI from disbanding units the first few turns after its spawn, so it can keep its starting units to defend itself against its neighbors (that's important for late starts). Maybe they'd even be completely exempted from unit upkeep costs for this period.

Could you please explain what needs to be done in general BTS scenario to prevent AI from disbanding units?

[Leoreth]

Originally Posted by Barak

Just started a game as Italy (600ad) and on my third turn (when Venice flips) I get a message that San Marco has been build in a far away land.

Yeah, they're still missing the parts where the AI is forbidden to start building them before you spawn.

Originally Posted by Tigranes

Could you please explain what needs to be done in general BTS scenario to prevent AI from disbanding units?

I've modified one AI method in the DLL to do this, not sure about the details at the moment.

[Cosmos1985]

Originally Posted by Leoreth

Because that would be overpowered

I still dont understand why it would be; 1 would not mean anything else than being able to run the artist itself. I used an example back then going something like this: if you have a pop 8 city with 2 unhappy citizens, you have 6 working citizens. If you then hire an artist, you then have 1 unhappy citizen, 1 artist, and 6 other working citizens. It will not enable you to work more tiles or hire other specialists, you'd still have 6 - the artist is only making himself happy, so to speak. And how often are you in most circumstances interested in increasing your odds for a great artist, if not going for a few specific UHVs? I don't see this as overpowered at all. And all things aside, can't we at least agree that it makes quite a lot of sense, when culture and culture buildings all give happiness? People get happy if you build them a theater, but not if you employ someone to work there, and do exactly the same?

In any case - if I cant convince you, how about just the great artists then?

[Fresol]

Played a bit of 600 AD Italy on Normal/Epic, and I faced no competition in finishing the wonders. Took Rome from France and Naples from Byzantium with my initial forces, and then just built everything. I got 1 Great Merchant, 1 Great Prophet and 4 Great Artists, which ensured my finishing the first 2 goals in time. I get the impression that 600 AD start might be easier for Italy.

[Leoreth]

Originally Posted by Cosmos1985

I still dont understand why it would be; 1 would not mean anything else than being able to run the artist itself. I used an example back then going something like this: if you have a pop 8 city with 2 unhappy citizens, you have 6 working citizens. If you then hire an artist, you then have 1 unhappy citizen, 1 artist, and 6 other working citizens. It will not enable you to work more tiles or hire other specialists, you'd still have 6 - the artist is only making himself happy, so to speak. And how often are you in most circumstances interested in increasing your odds for a great artist, if not going for a few specific UHVs? I don't see this as overpowered at all. And all things aside, can't we at least agree that it makes quite a lot of sense, when culture and culture buildings all give happiness? People get happy if you build them a theater, but not if you employ someone to work there, and do exactly the same?

In any case - if I cant convince you, how about just the great artists then?

The problem with this is that if you're at the happy cap, you can still hire artists. That's what this change would affect, and nothing else.

From an in-universe perspective, this is counter-intuitive. These artists don't make people happy, only themselves (if I didn't hire the artist, everyone else would still work), which isn't very logical. Are they entertaining themselves?

From a balance perspective, the happy cap is a major aspect of the game. Optimizing your happiness means optimizing your cities, at least if you're large enough. I don't think there should be a way around this challenge. It would basically mean that your happy cap is in fact happiness + number of artist slots, and artist slots are mainly provided by buildings that already create happiness. The problem would be even more severe once you're running Egalitarianism, where happiness is your only limit, besides food.

I think I've already said that I'd like happiness for great artist specialists, but the problem is that there's no XML tag for this so I'd have to code this, and specialists and happiness are both interface heavy things.

[iOnlySignIn]

^ Would it be easier to implement Happiness bonus from Cultural Levels? That would mean that both Artists and Great Artists indirectly provide Happiness. In particular, you can use Great Artists bombs for a direct Happiness boost.

+1 for Refined, +2 for Influential, +3 for Legendary perhaps?

That is very realistic, necessary, and well-balanced IMO. Great Artists like Shakespeare and Mozart definitely provide Happiness for all people.

Notice that +2 Happiness is the effect of Notre Dame and various UBs (Hammam, Mausoleum, Ball Court, Hippodrome*, Odeon*, Mall*).

* Dependent on other factors, but gives an effective +2 Happiness on average IMO

I would also like to note that all Specialists already indirectly provide Happiness, as they cost Food and slows Growth. Any veteran player of China in DoC knows this.

[iOnlySignIn]

Another idea would be to allow certain Cultural Wonders to be hurried by Great Artists in addition to Great Engineers. Examples I can think of are:

Statue of Zeus (put Greek Great Artists to use)
Sistine Chapel (synergy with Italian UHV)
Khajuraho (put Indian Artists to use)
Graceland (perfectly reasonable)
Hollywood (perfectly reasonable)

Opera House/Globe Theatre (duh)
National Gallery (duh)

and possibly, but less convincingly:

Versailles (French UHV)
La Mezquita (not very sure about this one)
Blue Mosque (or this one)
Terracotta Army (meh)
Himeji Castle (Japanese UHV)
Taj Mahal (Mughal UHV)

Personally, I associate these Wonders more with Artists than with Engineers, despite being an Engineer myself. All the other Wonders are thanks to Engineers though .