Multiplayer Civ Counter?

[kornuletz]

Me and two friends are sometimes playing FFH2 original (no modmods) in multiplayer with the following setup:
1v1v1 on a tiny/small Pangea Map with no AI (sometimes ErebusContinenty.py)
We basically meet very fast and fight most of our games with warriors, at most swordsmen. It makes short fun games, even if the teching part is missing abit :P

Anyway we found out pretty fast that Khazad are pretty damn good but lately I come to think that they are hands down the best race (for our game setup, see above!). I hope I overlook something and I wonder if other people have some tips, because our games always play out that the Khazad player steamrolls the others, to the point that we said we have to ban that civilization from being picked.

I wonder what counters there may be or what civilizations are best to fight against them, because here is how I see it from the perspective of playing against them -

KHAZAD have advantages like:
- They have an AGG/FIN leader, possibly one of the best combinations and always viable, regardless of strategy and terrain.
- 2 starting warriors with str I (from aggressive).
- Units can basically walk 2 squares (first move on hills), as the map is usually filled with hills, that seem to be often forming a "natural road system" for them. Hills seem to work better than forrests as a "natural road".
- Through that they have (one of the) best mobility ingame with though starting units.
- Having a capital near hills gives them tons of production. They have a good lead start towards RoK, which is an amazing religion, and also not that hard to get.
- Gold hills usually gives them tons of research too. Earth mana possibly even more ressources with abit of luck.
- With minimal effort (couple of warriors) they are one of the best raiders as they pillage uncontested as long as they end their turn on a hill, for ex they can move only on hills. If you have a vastly superior stack, they can always just flee as they please, again only moving on hills. With a non-aggressive race, you need tons more warriors chasing (and never catching) them.

All the cons seem to come later in the game so not important for our setup:
- Fewer cities because of vault. As we end most of our games with 1-3 cities anyway, does not seem to be a problem at all.
- Weaker cavalery: again, we dont often come to that.
- No mages: never come to that in multiplayer. not even close..

In short, it boils down to: prolly best warriors, some of the fastest warriors, very good production, very good research, very good traits.

Anyway, in conclusion, this is my personal view and MULTIPLAYER experience, as obviously in single player or other setups, the game plays totally different.

I wonder how other people counter them? Because I hope I am just missing something as I am not that experienced like others here.

[Breunor]

Well, the Khazad are pretty bleeping good in a long game too! I find them one of the toughest Civ's. I believe you that they are real real good under yor settings too!

How do the fast starters (Doviello, maybe the Clan) fare?

Best wishes,

Breunor

[kornuletz]

until now not much success, for the following reasons:

Clan -
units are as strong, but both units starting units are slow. also i was extremely unlucky in my games with them, both few barbs and no wolfs for me anywhere
for the horde gave me a grad total of 2 goblins.
tech disadvantage and no real advantage made that game onesided.
but we will maybe tweak the barbs to be more often, then maybe clan is worth playing...

Doviello -
haven't tested them yet mainly because i thought them to be similar to clan but worse. i could be wrong though. but i see them as a one-trick pony, and if khazad should have no problem defending their rush by standing on hills and being, again, bloody fast

The best contenders seem to be... gasp... luirchuip and sometimes svats, as being fast is damn important. And I hate dwarfs at this point, I want to defeat them not play them. ;-)

Oh and another aspect is the fact that we often play ErebusContinents with flavour start, where the rushers clan and doviello get start positions more often then not..

BTW all my bickering does not stop me from loving this mod!! Awesome even after so many years, hope for FFH3

[Azhral]

Mahala Doviello is an interesting game. Completely different from Charadon and the Clan.

Alexis rushing Moroi and Tasunke rushing Horsemen would also be good starters. Possibly also Lanun to get the tech advantage.

Early game the Khazad are strong, and are excellent city busters thanks to their Trebuchets. Mid-game they tend to flag as the other teams get their Magic up and running. Evens out in the late game as the Khazad get access to Dwarven Shadows and Dwarven Druids. Also the Khazad are pretty average techers, as the Financial trait is balanced by the need to keep earning huge amounts of cash.

[Horatius]

The Khazad are very nice indeed.

Some suggestions (which are not an automatic win button):

Try using Amel:
you have double movement on forests and 10% forest attack.
That and the defender trait can help a bit in warrior versus warrior fights inside your borders.
hopefully have a start to beeline Gilden.
support him with enough warriors and (maybe some archers if you can) and do some pillaging and choking.
(of course it's not that easy, since in those games you always have to worry about being pressured and backstabbed).

Try using Tasunke:
He's aggressive so the Warriors are readier for the bloodshed.
you can try using the world spell with mass warriors.
or with a nice calendar resources start, go festivals, build markets, use the merchant to bulb horseback riding after animal husbandry.
get the God King city building horsemen and the other cities scouts (after enough warriors) and upgrade some with a zero slider and raiding.

try using Auric:
Again the Homeland promotion but also the ice strength if you build the temple of the hand can help in warrior versus warrior fights.
bulb philosophy and build the white hand early. The problem is that this ritual is more or less expensive, feel free to make pauses in the building phase to replenish warrior losses, of course.
while bulbing philosophy I like to go mining and hopefully get some mines and chops in time (How aggressive are your friends, though?).
support the Priests of winter with enough warriors and choke abusing their spells.

try using Charadon:
is aggressive and starts with Lucian, so... yeah...
if you find a goblin fort close by (well, if you play small maps sometimes you are completly unlucky) don't be shy about buying some goblins and make an effort to get some wolf riders.
with a good start and the goblin fort you can try bulbing horseback riding and accumulate money to buy 5 strength wolf riders for 60 gold.

Sheelba:
similar stuff as above, but she can actually build goblins and doesn't need horses to build wolf riders.

Mahala:
not aggressive but starting with Lucian is always nice for very early wars.

you know, a nice thing about Kandros is that not only he is aggressive and financial but also has ingenuity (pretty sick if you ask me). this means that he can upgrade an excellent axe army reasonably quick if given the opportunity (Although they will want money in the vault....)
But Mahala can do a little better since upgrading beastmen to Sons costs only 20 gold for her. In consequence, with a good start, she can get the biggest axe type army in the early game with some planning and hopefully have copper and enough numbers to even give mass bronze warriors some trouble (pillage their copper!).
Of course, you can't bulb BW, and getting there can take a while in such games with warrior spamming.

In the long run I pick Tasunke. In my opinion, he is a sick bastard.

[Aline]

Try Elohim, their worldspell is rather usefull for holding of those eraly rushes, giving you time to build some more and gain a tech advantage or Sheaim spaming PZ´s, they end up being pretty sick aswell.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Aline

Try Elohim, their worldspell is rather usefull for holding of those eraly rushes, giving you time to build some more and gain a tech advantage or Sheaim spaming PZ´s, they end up being pretty sick aswell.

Forgot about that.
Hmmm... Pyre Zombies... PYRE ZOMBIES!

[Jarrema]

Yeah... pyre zombies rules

For sheer fun, try: PERPENTACH.
Yeah, it sounds crazy... but can work. Of course, it depends on luck (what traits and when you will get), but, on pros side:
- 3 traits, possibly good ones
- LOKI - if your friends are not ready for war, it is a killer (at war - almost no use)
- Freaks - spam them, upgrade good ones, send bad ones to arena
- twice-long golden age will help you change civics and get some techs earlier

[arcticnightwolf]

Originally Posted by Horatius

Tasunke:
He's aggressive [..]

[..]

In the long run I pick Tasunke. In my opinion, he is a sick bastard.

that is so true ... seriously ... i lose every game to him

[Dis Citsatnaf]

Play as Auric, drop Stasis the turn that you see your opponents' scores increase by 22 points (when they found their capitals.) For bonus points, kill someone during Stasis

[Tasunke]

lol anw

[BvBPL]

Originally Posted by Azhral

Mid-game they tend to flag as the other teams get their Magic up and running.

You'd never get to the mid-game with a small / tiny pangea map and three players.

I don’t know about playing as Auric in MP; being able to freeze the board using stasis isn’t something that the other players would enjoy.

The Svarts have really great scouts early on. Two movement (with extra forest movement) and they are strength 3 when attacking and do not have a penalty to attack cities, unlike most recon units.

[Tasunke]

What about the Calabim? As Alexis.

You can use your worldspell early to start with 3 population.

And Moroi are nothing to shake a stick at, either

[Jarrema]

You are right, Alexis seems like a good choice.
And there is old problem: should Calabim use their world spell at turn 1, or rather wait untill they hit pop 3? I prefer the latter, if only for a psychological efect it would have on my enemies

[Goodwill]

Sheaim and Hippus are good choices.

I would also play as Elohim with a beeline for Priesthood and Monks. Not only are they 6 strength with the medic promotion, anti-disciple promotions aren't as easy to get as anti-melee ones. And there isn't a strong need to pursue bronze or iron working early. As mentioned earlier, the world spell can hold off a rush if you don't have your monks yet. (Later game it can be pretty fun too, <3 Corlindale and tolerance).

And with the smaller number of cities available especially, Kuriorates is a pretty good choice too. Stronger cities earlier on, and I like their chargers (airships rock late game, but that's besides the point).

If you guys like this game style but want to change it up a bit, and try different civ sets, you could consider starting with advanced tecnologies too.

[kornuletz]

Alot of nice suggestions, just some random comments:
I/we prefer AGGRESSIVE trait as one of the two traits, as experience has shown that it is too important to skip in such games.
Loki seems to be useless in Multiplayer, as we will always declare war on each other from the start. But Balsheraph are still pretty nice if you have good luck with Freaks and like to gamble with the 3 traits (the girls is useless as her traits gives you no military bonuses... well I guess culture makes city defence better but still...)
Elohim is a nice addition to the civs I thought about, as the world spell can be pretty nasty after the enemy invests alot in army, and monks seem to be pretty good (never tried them).

[A Moon]

Originally Posted by kornuletz

(the girls is useless as her traits gives you no military bonuses... well I guess culture makes city defence better but still...)

Unless you can use your freaks to survive long enough to get mages. Keelyn's Summoner trait + Puppets = Twincast on steroids for all your arcane units.

[Aline]

Keelyn can be very powerfull if you get magic going (gibbon anyone?) but i doubt you will get that far on a smal pangea with dwarfens spaming axeman.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by kornuletz

Alot of nice suggestions, just some random comments:
I/we prefer AGGRESSIVE trait as one of the two traits, as experience has shown that it is too important to skip in such games.

That should not prevent you from trying auric:
Because
- Auric is your true God
- Auric can go mysticism immediately and build a temple of the hand to have combat one inside his icy borders
- Auric can spam warriors until his slider is zero and still bulb philosophy
- Auric is charismatic, has less need for happiness resources and his troops gain levels faster (gamble a bit if you have enough)
- Auric has a stronger world spell to set back opponents
- Priests of Winter are broken if you get them fast enough and the opponent only has warriors and you'll only get mobbed if you are silly
- Auric is your true God

Originally Posted by kornuletz

Elohim is a nice addition to the civs I thought about, as the world spell can be pretty nasty after the enemy invests alot in army, and monks seem to be pretty good (never tried them).

To get monks fast enough you have to bulb priesthood. The problem is they cost 120 hammers. So they don't really do very fast offensive rushes. You need the heroic epic if you want to have enough of them, otherwise you'll only have a few and mostly warriors. I doubt that it's doable in your games.

[Jarrema]

I think Elohim are too slow for this kind of game. Their world spell is nice, but not enough to offset lack of early bonus. OTOH, Auric may be a perfect match for a rather fast game, with Stasis giving some time needed to get priests of winter (and then it is victory time)