Challenge-VI-04

[Ozbenno]

While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

Settings:

• Victory Condition: Conquest (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Emperor
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Archipelago
• Speed: Normal
• Required: No Vassal States, No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
• Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
• Civ: America (Franklin Roosevelt)
• Opponents: Must include Carthage (Hannibal), Egypt (Ramesses II), England (Elizabeth), Inca (Huayna Capac), Korea (Wang Kon), Netherlands (Willem Van Oranje), Portugal (Joao), Viking (Ragnar Lodbrok)
• Version: 3.19.003
• Date: 6th October 2011 to 6th February 2012

The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

[AgedOne]

:gulp: This one looks like my personal nightmare.

[AutomatedTeller]

I kind of like the idea of conquering the world with seals. given that, in the real world, seal teams are pretty small, it'll be pretty awesome to see them conquering a city of a million people.

The winning game will be over well before you get to them, though, I think. Though, no vassal states will complicate things.

[TheMeInTeam]

Ugh. No vassal conquest. High sea levels ahoy!

Emp isn't that fast so if you whore out GLH/Colossus and/or manage fast rifles + galleons you should be able to spam raze and win right there. Doing it sooner would be hard I think because you'd struggle to get anything done amphibiously...maybe aggressive muskets + frigate bombard + combat II/amphibious (5 xp)?

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

Ugh. No vassal conquest. High sea levels ahoy!

Emp isn't that fast so if you whore out GLH/Colossus and/or manage fast rifles + galleons you should be able to spam raze and win right there. Doing it sooner would be hard I think because you'd struggle to get anything done amphibiously...maybe aggressive muskets + frigate bombard + combat II/amphibious (5 xp)?

I see nothing about high sea levels mentioned in this challenge. Can you please explain what you meant by the sentence "High sea levels ahoy!"?

Archipelago with tiny islands will often allow all islands to be accessible via Galleys. Sometimes cultural bridges will be needed to extend the reach of a Galley by an extra plot. Bee-lining Metal Casting to build Triremes will provide a navy unit that can keep the Galleys/Settlers of other Civs out of the areas the player clears of all cities (razes).

A Swordsmen rush would suffice to start with. Then follow up Crossbowmen/Catapults and finally Macemen with either Catapults or Trebuchets. Consider Accuracy promotion for Catapults whose exclusive purpose is to bombard enemy port cities' defense to 0%. Use 1-2 Catapults or preferably Trebuchets to inflict significant Collateral Damage and take each city with non-siege, City Raider promoted units.

Early on, be sure to send two Work Boats in opposite directions to circle the world for the +1 circumnavigation bonus which increases a Galley's movement allowance by 50% (from 2 plots to 3 plots) which will be a huge advantage against all pre-Optics opponents.

Sun Tzu Wu

[TheMeInTeam]

I see nothing about high sea levels mentioned in this challenge. Can you please explain what you meant by the sentence "High sea levels ahoy!"?

High sea levels = fewer AI cities to raze. Unless someone proves to me that they can win a razing-based conquest game on emperor with galleys alone with more land than high sea levels, I'm expecting this to be an advantage.

I also have serious doubts about guaranteeing someone isn't isolated, or that the culture bride requirement won't force you to wait to long to leave swords viable, though I could use some test runs at this script...

However given your summary here it looks like you have some experience with winning earlier. I might be wrong, and that this is doable with galleys alone on emperor in which case swords ----> xbow should work nicely.

BTW, cats inflict more collateral than trebs, but die a lot more also. For strictly collateral purposes cats are better, oddly.

How long does the AI take to reach castles on your settings?

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

High sea levels = fewer AI cities to raze. Unless someone proves to me that they can win a razing-based conquest game on emperor with galleys alone with more land than high sea levels, I'm expecting this to be an advantage.

OK, you mean more water than land. That probably happens with low sea level.

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

I also have serious doubts about guaranteeing someone isn't isolated, or that the culture bride requirement won't force you to wait to long to leave swords viable, though I could use some test runs at this script...

Identifying where Culture Bridge Cities need to be build is part of the skill of playing "Archipelago with Tiny Islands and Low Sea Level". The City should pop borders before the Culture Bridge is needed. Conquer in other directions as the City whips a Monument and builds Culture.

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

However given your summary here it looks like you have some experience with winning earlier. I might be wrong, and that this is doable with galleys alone on emperor in which case swords ----> xbow should work nicely.

A little experience winning earlier, but it can be hard to get a win with just a early rush on normal speed. You are right that crossbowmen can probably finish the win.

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

BTW, cats inflict more collateral than trebs, but die a lot more also. For strictly collateral purposes cats are better, oddly.

Trebuchets aren't much good against anything except cities. Are you sure Catapults do more collateral damage than Trebuchets? It seems the same to me.

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

How long does the AI take to reach castles on your settings?

I'm not playing this challenge, so I don't have an answer. I'm just proposing strategies that I believe would work based on past experience I've had with similar games. Given that I rarely play non-Deity level games, please keep that in mind. Strategies that work well on one level may not translate too well to a significantly different level.

Sun Tzu Wu

[TheMeInTeam]

OK, you mean more water than land. That probably happens with low sea level.

You definitely get more water with high sea level than low sea level...

Identifying where Culture Bridge Cities need to be build is part of the skill of playing "Archipelago with Tiny Islands and Low Sea Level". The City should pop borders before the Culture Bridge is needed. Conquer in other directions as the City whips a Monument and builds Culture.

I understand the culture bridge theory, I'm just worried about #attempts until you get a map where you can actually reach every single opponent culture bridge or not. Culture will never extend more than 2 tiles from the shore, so if there's more than 3 tiles of water between landmasses you can't do it before astro, and that changes strategy...

Trebuchets aren't much good against anything except cities. Are you sure Catapults do more collateral damage than Trebuchets? It seems the same to me.

Collateral pre-promo is based on the base str of the unit AFAIK. That would make cats do more...although it would seem similar since cata are only ~25% stronger and the collateral variance in damage would be less than a single point of health...

Given that I rarely play non-Deity level games, please keep that in mind. Strategies that work well on one level may not translate too well to a significantly different level.

True enough, but lower difficulty almost invariably means a slower tech rate so if something is doable conquest timing wise on deity it should be doable below deity also, and probably more easily.

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

I understand the culture bridge theory, I'm just worried about #attempts until you get a map where you can actually reach every single opponent culture bridge or not. Culture will never extend more than 2 tiles from the shore, so if there's more than 3 tiles of water between landmasses you can't do it before astro, and that changes strategy...

Archipelago and Tiny Islands with Low Sea Level will suffice in nearly all Land being Galley accessible from the start position. Only occasionally will Culture Bridges even be needed. Also, if no AI is in an Optics only accessible are, they won't be there either until they complete Astronomy (Optics for Joao II).

I will admit that one will probably have to abandon (or pursue an Optics/Astronomy option) maybe 30% of the time due to one or more AIs being inaccessible via Galleys.

Sun Tzu Wu

[m00n]

Game No 4!
I thought about high sea level here but what Sun Tzu Wu wrote makes me wonder if low is better.

The problem is that I'm not sure that I can pull off a gally conquest even if I get to meet all the AI. My main concern is the production poor Archipelago. It'd be mostly whipping but you are not garuanteed to have early happy resoures either.

So I will go the more start approach og high sea level. Even though it will probably put me half a millenia behind anyone who can pull of that gally war. That idea has too many ifs in it for me. I'm busy enoght trying to win the map. I don't want to play 2-3 times, scraping well played attampts, just because the mapscript didn't like me.

[Nice Jerk]

Hey guys, it's been fun trying this series so far, I've learned more about civ in 1 week than the past few months put together. But I'm not sure how to proceed in this one. I don't think I've ever even built a galley except for barb defense, so this archipelago stuff is a puzzle. I'd appreciate any help.

In this game I'm following Sun Tzu Wu's gameplan. The settings are tiny islands & low seas. I was lucky enough to start on an island with Wang Kong, whom I promptly axe rushed. Now I'm about to finish off Hannibal, but I'm behind in tech, falling faster and faster each turn. I don't have any wonders and I'm at -GPT at 0% research.

My take on the situation is that if I don't get Hannibal to retake Utica so I can burn that and Carthage, I'll be too far behind in maintenance to do anything. But I also feel my army is about to become outdated, and the new capitol, city, and gems to the north of Utica might save me. I don't know what is viable here. In the Mao game you could rush as many civs as possible until your units were outdated, but I just don't see how to tech here.

My Capitol

Spoiler:

Western Cities

Spoiler:

Carthage

Spoiler:

The Tech Situation

Spoiler:

My Starting Island

Spoiler:

[vranasm]

@nice jerk

very tough to comment form SS. I would say don't abandon the beachhead.

You could look what is on the table from Hanni for peace getting alpha, math or something on the way to currency.

I would review each city and click some coast (governor usually doesn't work coast since he doesn't realize you need not to strike out in advance).

you have to review wonders, if Carthage has something good you should capture it before peace. You still have some time to act.

Don't forget this new cities will bring good TR's (base 2C instead of 1C at home)

Looks like you didn't prioritize currency enough.

BTW New York should have been settled on ivory... you waste corn and the city looks like it has not food.

Did you built GLH?

you should have built a bit more island cities around your starting island (for example the fish island south from new york)
then there is that island east from Wash with 1 GH and borrowing sea food from cap

south from Wash is unsettled fish too.

I would prioritize here GLH or capture GLH.

[Nice Jerk]

Thanks, Vransam. So a better strategy for this map would be to get ~7-10 cities after your first war, stabilize while teching up to currency / col / maces / pults, then drop the slider? When do you raze vs keep a city?

Here I got 1 city, produced axes, killed Wang, switched to swords and galleys, went to Hannibal. No deviations except for settlers, and Pyongyang has a library and is running 2 scientists.

Also, I know NY is sub optimal. I settled New York where I did because I wanted copper quickly, as Wang Kong had 3 cities to my 1, I wanted to rush him, he had iron and horses. I thought Mysticism -> monument -> 10 turns pop-> 6-turn mine+road would be too much of a delay.

Inca has the GLH and the mids, still searching for him.

[vranasm]

well I say it this way, you need currency and CoL to stay alive.
I am usually too passive at some points and thus my HoF dates are surely not that great, but I think that all would agree that you need currency and CoL.

The issue with copper is valid one and I take my opinion back if that is the case.

I am "keeper" in heart ;-) If I made so much effort to take it (units cost maintenance and hammers) why would I leave it back for AI to resettle usually much cheaper?
In conquest game there will be a lot of razing though eventually.

I think in SGOTM Napoleon (it was the one before the current) the winning team (PD) went all out axe+cats for 590 AD victory and they went with Oracle->Currency and teching constr and then all out war.

Maybe checking their thread would be helpful since this map type has some strong similarities.

edit:
since in that game (btw) the GLH was presettled their first capture was the AI with GLH. (just promoting even more the importance of GLH, it's killer wonder)

[Ozbenno]

GLH is the best wonder on this map by a country mile.

Try to get Alphabet for peace from Hannibal and build research to get Currency and Code of Laws, you can then build wealth and whip courthouses and then push on for the win...

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by Nice Jerk

Hey guys, it's been fun trying this series so far, I've learned more about civ in 1 week than the past few months put together. But I'm not sure how to proceed in this one. I don't think I've ever even built a galley except for barb defense, so this archipelago stuff is a puzzle. I'd appreciate any help.

In this game I'm following Sun Tzu Wu's gameplan. The settings are tiny islands & low seas. I was lucky enough to start on an island with Wang Kong, whom I promptly axe rushed. Now I'm about to finish off Hannibal, but I'm behind in tech, falling faster and faster each turn. I don't have any wonders and I'm at -GPT at 0% research.

My take on the situation is that if I don't get Hannibal to retake Utica so I can burn that and Carthage, I'll be too far behind in maintenance to do anything. But I also feel my army is about to become outdated, and the new capitol, city, and gems to the north of Utica might save me. I don't know what is viable here. In the Mao game you could rush as many civs as possible until your units were outdated, but I just don't see how to tech here.
...

First of all, from the pictures I can tell that you did not have "Tiny Islands" selected. If you did, you will generally find only one city on each island and at most three cities. The default "Archipelago" will come up each time you start a new map ("Custom Game") and replace your "Tiny Islands" selection. You have manually select "Tiny Islands" each time you start a game, otherwise you get the default Archipelago" selection, not to be confused with the name of the map type which is what I meant in my post above.

I agree with everyone that has commented so far:

You need Currency and Code of Laws. SGOTM-13 Plastic Ducks thread is also a good read as vranasm mentioned!

Ozbenno provided great advice: Try to make Peace for Alphabet (+ whatever else you can get) and build Research. Also, try to run scientists in a city unless the citizen can work 3H or more.

If most cities can whip a courthouse after building it for 1t, I would target Code of Laws first; -50% maintenance in each city with a courthouse is huge and the savings apply equally regardless of the Research/Espionage/Wealth slider position (obviously, you need Wealth 100% for a while at least).

Otherwise, Currency first may be better for the extra trade route and also to build Wealth and maybe even Markets.

Since you have Metal Casting, you should be building The Colossus which should be easier with Copper connected, unless another Civ beat you.

Also, check which Civ has The Great Lighthouse and target them, if possible. Also target the city containing The Colossus (if it has already been built).

As vranasm already mentioned, be sure you are working as many commerce plots (shore is worth 2C), unless you can work 3H or more while building research.

You just need to balance your economy. You can afford to be behind in Technology on Archipelago, because the AI is horrible at naval warfare until it gets Destroyers (Combustion) or maybe Frigates (Chemistry). That's a long ways off.

When your economy is under control again, try simultaneous attacks as many cities of a land mass as possible. (This is far easier to do with the "Tiny Islands" selection, since there is often only one city on each island. You will learn to island hop quickly; the AI is awful at it. If you try this challenge again, be sure to select "Tiny Islands".)

Best of luck to you, Nice Jerk.

Sun Tzu Wu

[Nice Jerk]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I need to consider warring for techs as an option more often.
Unfortunately Hannibal wouldn't even talk to me for 2 turns, wouldn't give me Alpha when he would talk, so I attacked Carthage and lost multiple 80%+ battles.

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

I can tell that you did not have "Tiny Islands" selected. If you did, you will generally find only one city on each island and at most three cities.

I know it looks like I have normal archipelago settings on, but believe me, it's tiny islands. When rolling this game I made SURE and double checked that tiny islands were on. I had them on that first game, too. The "low seas" setting must really change things.
Look at the starting island I got next game.

Spoiler:

[/URL]

There's already 5 cities on the island, with room for 3 more! Also, Joao's starting island is around the same size, (with much better land, which contributed to me being curb-stomped :< ).

On the bright side, I've always been able to reach everybody with galleys using these settings. No cultural bridges needed, yet.

[TheMeInTeam]

Giving it thought, I'm not yet convinced that low seas is the way to go.

With high seas, you need galleons but there are much fewer sites the AI can re-settle and much fewer sites to capture in total. Crowded map will slow tech rate a bit and prevent any tough runaways.

Really good players can get astronomy late BC or early AD. Much slower than galleys, but:

- Galleons are faster
- You're quite close to at least maces

The more I look at this the more I fear a galley + swords type combo to struggle vs longbows and lose momentum, plus the early game expense means razing (and possibly re-razing) a lot of cities while managing galley logistics...

Galley might still win but a fast astro bulb might close the gap.

[vranasm]

@TMIT

interesting you mention this. Actually this was main difference between the OSS and PD strategy in mentioned SGOTM game and PD came ahead (they used galleys from what I remember).

There is only 1 problem with copying the PD approach. The game was on epic (this one is normal).

[TheMeInTeam]

Speed shouldn't affect GPP return. It might affect whether you can kill everyone before your stuff obsoletes, but on emperor with tiny islands? I'm not sure. I can't say I have tested enough to really push a strategy. I'm just making a suggestion.

PD has some ridiculously good talent on it, and they're playing as a team with carefully micro'd games + test saves. It's safe to say you won't expect to match their epic speed times on normal speed, but that doesn't mean the strategy won't work or even possibly gain a high finish time.