C2C - Religions discussions and ideas

[rightfuture]

Originally Posted by johny smith

Hi. I am not really here still though. Browsing forums and have no clue what the hell you guys really have done. Looks like this is the last mod really with some real innovation going on.

Sorry I am interested in the mod, but seriously am under time constraints to mod. I sound like some old bastard you know just going hey hey you should do this by posting. If there is something specific you guys need that I can only answer..hit me up with an email.

You could still participate in the idea development process here, as you wish. It would give you a chance to control your time, yet still dabble in your love for Civilization, even if it is only occasional discussion.
I bet everyone would love you being here, just share your thoughts.
I wish I could make time to learn how to mod and participate more as well, I love this mod as it really is becoming the ultimate community mod and the future of Civilization. You never know how far ideas could be taken

[strategyonly]

Originally Posted by rightfuture

I love this mod as it really is becoming the ultimate community mod and the future of Civilization. You never know how far ideas could be taken

I agree with you 100%, that's why i call you "The Advertising Specialist for C2C."

[johny smith]

Well I would suggest everyone figures out what do to if new religions are founded in the alternate punk lines. Just because there are so many religions...does not mean they have to stay.

A good religion decay system could be a solution. Like for example state religion is preserved, and then a random religion is selected to be removed over time. At least that is what I was envisioning at the end.

If going the alternate punk line I would think decay should not hit as hard on religions for the punk timeframe that you are currently in.

I would also suggest some organization as in grouping. I do not mean just folders. I mean as the game reads them as groups.

And of course last and not least. The religions do not have to automatically spread. I would just weigh which ones should or should not. Anyway that's my nonsense for the day.

[Dancing Hoskuld]

We do have a religious decay system but it never got beyond a first attempt. iirc it works at the city level, removing the least popular religion when a new religion spreads there. Then when no city has a religion it disappears.

[philipschall]

I agree with Johnny's sentiments about mormonism. I understand it's historical understand, how it was the largest example of a religious doctrine fusing with nationalism, but it is still too close to the original doctrine of christianity to be considered a unique religion. I would be happy to see it removed, and I would do it to my own copy if I knew how.

And since I'm in the mood to ask unreasonable things, would there be a way to obsolete/neuter a religion once it comes in contact with a more modern religion? For instance, if shamanism came into contact with christianity, shamanism would lose most of its buildings in that city, making modern religions cancerous to the religions of the past. Not all religions would be subjected to this rule, only shamanism, druidism, kemetism, mesopotamianism, and ngaiism. At the same time, not all other religions would have the neutering effect. Tengriism, Judaism, Hinduism, Hellenism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, the Viking and the mesoamerican ones wouldn't effect the religions currently there unless they were intolerant. If some knew and showed me how to do this, I would gladly make this happen.

[Hydromancerx]

Originally Posted by philipschall

I agree with Johnny's sentiments about mormonism. I understand it's historical understand, how it was the largest example of a religious doctrine fusing with nationalism, but it is still too close to the original doctrine of christianity to be considered a unique religion. I would be happy to see it removed, and I would do it to my own copy if I knew how.

And since I'm in the mood to ask unreasonable things, would there be a way to obsolete/neuter a religion once it comes in contact with a more modern religion? For instance, if shamanism came into contact with christianity, shamanism would lose most of its buildings in that city, making modern religions cancerous to the religions of the past. Not all religions would be subjected to this rule, only shamanism, druidism, kemetism, mesopotamianism, and ngaiism. At the same time, not all other religions would have the neutering effect. Tengriism, Judaism, Hinduism, Hellenism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, the Viking and the mesoamerican ones wouldn't effect the religions currently there unless they were intolerant. If some knew and showed me how to do this, I would gladly make this happen.

I don't think this should happen. Just because a religion came after another one don't mean it should cancel he other one out. For instance just because we have Mormonism or Scientology doesn't mean there are not still Christians and Jews.

If anything the Inquisitor function can be used to simulate what you want to do. However it takes some real effort to eradicate your cities of other religions.

[philipschall]

Fair enough. As I stated before, the only religions being affected by a new one would be Kemetism, Mesopotamianism, Shamanism, Druidism, and Ngaiism, the rest of the religions wouldn't be effected by a new religion. I proposed this because those religions are pretty much non-existent today, either their myths were simply absorbed into a more modern religion or they faded away. Perhaps I'm too biased towards a modern worldview on religion.

[Koshling]

Originally Posted by Hydromancerx

I don't think this should happen. Just because a religion came after another one don't mean it should cancel he other one out. For instance just because we have Mormonism or Scientology doesn't mean there are no still Christians and Jews.

If anything the Inquisitor function can be used to simulate what you want to do. However it takes some real effort to eradicate your cities of other religions.

Well, in the same way that buildings have replacement buildings, and units get obsoleted by upgrade units, perhaps we should have a controlled upgrade system for religions. That way each religion could specify a 'susceptability' percentage to one or more other religions. If religions A and B are both present in a city then each has the chance of eradictaing the other (in that city) by the other's 'susceptibility value' to it (evaluated each turn). This could also be used to make contemporary religions somewhat competative to one another.

For example, if we wanted 'modern' religion to simply overpower really ancient ones (shamanism say) we would give the ancient religions a 100% susceptibility to modern religions.

If we wanted ancient religions to be somewhat competative towards one another, we would give them some (10% say) susceptibility towards one another.

If we wanted schisms to be modelled we could give susceptibiliy between religions in the same root-line.

We could also have modifying factors, such as:

• State religion has a reduced susceptibility, increased in certain civics maybe
• Presence of religious buildings of a religion reduce that religion's susceptibility in that city by a building-defined amount (so the religion's holy building would make it almost impervious in that city probably, whereas a temple would just reduce it slightly)

[Hydromancerx]

Well what if Kemetism and Judaism were swapped in that Judaism died out long ago and now Kemetism is still a modern religion? Rather than a Jewish holocaust in WWII what if it was a Kemetish holocaust?

I don't see why we have to force our timeline upon the game. It should be able to have any possible combination. Even ones where say Shamanism rules all and all other religions are new and thus blasphemous because they are not the first and true religion.

You get the idea.

[philipschall]

I get ya. I like to play in a more historical manner (most played map of mine is giant earth map), and many others like to play ultimate "what if" scenarios. Perhaps this idea could be turned off or on, like great prophets, depending on the person's taste.

[johny smith]

It is like Koshling said..there could be many factors of deciding. You could have Kemetism (I dont subscribe to the new age name) overrun Judaism. It just would depend on actions by the player. If you stick with some civic type for Kemetism, build buildings for it, state religion, and etc....then it should. I mean that really goes to decay parameters.

If you are in a Steampunk history, I am suggesting that it would be more likely steam religion A without other factors will live longer than Kemetism. Just was passing my thoughts. It looks as though too many religions would screw up things, and that would mean figuring out a logical mechanic of making some go away based on player input of what they use commonly.

[AIAndy]

Originally Posted by Koshling

Well, in the same way that buildings have replacement buildings, and units get obsoleted by upgrade units, perhaps we should have a controlled upgrade system for religions. That way each religion could specify a 'susceptability' percentage to one or more other religions. If religions A and B are both present in a city then each has the chance of eradictaing the other (in that city) by the other's 'susceptibility value' to it (evaluated each turn). This could also be used to make contemporary religions somewhat competative to one another.

For example, if we wanted 'modern' religion to simply overpower really ancient ones (shamanism say) we would give the ancient religions a 100% susceptibility to modern religions.

If we wanted ancient religions to be somewhat competative towards one another, we would give them some (10% say) susceptibility towards one another.

If we wanted schisms to be modelled we could give susceptibiliy between religions in the same root-line.

We could also have modifying factors, such as:

• State religion has a reduced susceptibility, increased in certain civics maybe
• Presence of religious buildings of a religion reduce that religion's susceptibility in that city by a building-defined amount (so the religion's holy building would make it almost impervious in that city probably, whereas a temple would just reduce it slightly)

I suggest using the extended property system for modelling the religions as that is really something that fits with the possibilities that it provides (when it is finished in some days). Just have a property for each religion that represents the support/followers of the religion then add interactions that suppress each other and add sources, conversions and propagators to the religious buildings and missionaries.

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by philipschall

I agree with Johnny's sentiments about mormonism. I understand it's historical understand, how it was the largest example of a religious doctrine fusing with nationalism, but it is still too close to the original doctrine of christianity to be considered a unique religion. I would be happy to see it removed, and I would do it to my own copy if I knew how.

Turning off any of the non-standard (BtS or RoM) religions is fairly easy.

1) Go to the folder Assets/Modules/DancungHoskuld/Custom_Religions

2) Edit MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.xml

3) Change the "1" that corresponds to the religion(s) you want to remove to a "0"

For example change

				<Module>
					<Directory>Mormon</Directory>
					<bLoad>1</bLoad>
				</Module>

to

				<Module>
					<Directory>Mormon</Directory>
					<bLoad>0</bLoad>
				</Module>

[Hydromancerx]

Originally Posted by johny smith

It is like Koshling said..there could be many factors of deciding. You could have Kemetism (I dont subscribe to the new age name) overrun Judaism. It just would depend on actions by the player. If you stick with some civic type for Kemetism, build buildings for it, state religion, and etc....then it should. I mean that really goes to decay parameters.

If you are in a Steampunk history, I am suggesting that it would be more likely steam religion A without other factors will live longer than Kemetism. Just was passing my thoughts. It looks as though too many religions would screw up things, and that would mean figuring out a logical mechanic of making some go away based on player input of what they use commonly.

I still think my % system I proposed should work. Where if in your city some religious buildings cease to function if their % in the city goes too low.

Originally Posted by TowerWizard

Awesome idea! That would solve many of the big issues! Like you need at least 20% to build a monastery/temple and 33 % for a cathedral, and they stop working if you drop below this number. And you could spend money/commerce to try and influence the religious views of the the people after unlocking certain techs. Depending on civics they behave different, like during free religion all different religions in a city will try to "take the same space" (so if you have 4 religions every one will try to get 25% of the people), but during others only the state religion will bee boosted at the expense of the others. Oh and in this case "atheism" should be counted as a religion after like Liberalism or something (parts of the city who does not believe in religion).

Thus you could have as many religions as you wanted in a city but only a few would have a high enough % to have their buildings function. For instance there are still people who practice Druidism but its has to be a very small % compared to other more popular religions.

[strategyonly]

Originally Posted by Dancing Hoskuld

Btw what has changed between C2C and BtS/AND that now religions are founded in old safe cities? It used to be that religions would be founded in small border cities in vanilla BtS and even AND.

Secondly, Sevo's "Faces of God" mod for vanilla Civ IV may be a better way to go. A fare bit of work to do the conversion to C2C but could be done in a version or two. Basically, it reduces the overall effects of the "Holy City" by adding in a special building that you can build for your state religion from a long list that lets you personalise the religion to your game play tastes.

Or go even further by getting rid of the "named" religions completely for generic ones that you build up like you do cultures. A great deal of work since all the religion based buildings would need to change also.

Shouldn't this discussion religions be in the religion discussion thread?

Yes this is were, the religious writing needs to be, thx.

Also, in Orions Grand Inqu . . mod, he has something to do with making buildings and Holy Cities, has anyone checked that out lately??

[Hydromancerx]

When looking though Realism Invictus I noticed they have a game option called "Holy City Migration" from what I can tell from the description the holy cities will migrate to more historical civs. I am not sure if we would like to apply that to C2C for those who want a more "historical" game.

What do you guys think?

[JosEPh_II]

In the Gold Balance thread BG and I were discussing Religious Victory. It takes 80% of the world to win it. Would it be possible to Up the AI weighting for this? So the AI may work a bit more/harder in spreading their religions?

Or would it be better or in combination with the above, to reduce the victory % to say 65%? Then we can see if the AI is really spreading religion like they should be.

I feel they already do but BG says they don't. This could also maybe be due to difficulty levels and perceptions. But nevertheless 80% is rather high level to achieve unless you have founded every religion.

What say you Team?

JosEPh

[MrAzure]

Can we add Future Religions?


The Singularity (2040AD-21XX AD)
Prerequisites: Brain Machine Interface
Cost: Medium
Your nation believes man and machine should be united together in mind and body and worship the coming of this Singularity. There is strong opposition in advancing Cloning technology since they believe Humans are inferior creatures that can only be saved by merging with machines.

If State Religion +10% to Science AND -10% GOLD In ALL Cities
If No State Religion +15 % Science + 15% Culture AND -10% GOLD in All Cities

+100% Faster Construction of Computer Network
+50% Faster Construction of Computer Center [Wonder}
+50% Faster Construction of Mind Storage [Wonder]
+50% Faster Construction of Technological Capital [Wonder]
-50 % Slower Construction of Cloning Laboratory
-50% Slower Construction of Cloning Factory
-50% Slower Construction of Body Exchange Clinic
-50 % Slower Construction of Auxiliary Body Exchange Clinic


+5 Happy Faces in 10 Largest Cities from Computer Center [Wonder]
+5 Cultures in 10 Largest Cities from Mind Storage [Wonder]
+5 Science in 10 Largest Cities from Technological Capital [Wonder]\

+2 Happy Face AND + 1 Culture AND + 1 Science from Computer Network
+ 1 Happy Face AND + 1 Culture from Semiconductor Factory
+1 Happy Face AND + 1 Culture From Network Node
+1 Happy Face AND + 1 Culture From Bio Enchancement Center
+ 4 Culture from Virtual Reality Teather
+ 1 Happy Face AND + 1 Culture Smart Homes
+ 1 Happy Face AND + 1 Culture Mech Assemebly Plant
+ 1 Happy Face AND + 1 Culture Android Factory
+ 1 Happy Face AND + 1 Culture Nano Factory


-1 Happy Face AND - 3 Culture From Cloning Factory
-1 Happy Face AND – 3 Culture From Cloning Laboratory
-2 Happy Face AND - 3 Culture From Cryogenic Prison
-2 Happy Face AND - 3 Culture From Body Exchange Clinic
- 2 Happy Face AND - 3 Culture From Auxiliary Body Exchange Clinic

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by MrAzure

Can we add Future Religions?

The only thing stopping us adding more religions is graphics.

Plus a good theory of religion to match C2C's time flow. I do not think the Rapture mod is quite far enough but a change now would require many months of work!

[Koshling]

Originally Posted by MrAzure

Can we add Future Religions?

I like your ideas (this, the future civis, and the techs). However, right now I think the urgent thing we need to sort out is the religious dominance that occurs with a runaway leader in the early game, due to bunching, and tech leadership leading to religious dominance (closely lated but not entirely a single point).

Personally I like the ideas that aiandy floated, with some sort of religion points that build up over time (possibly influenced by buildings, civics, etc.), and must be spent to found a religion ( which would still have the tech pre req as now as well). Build up of religion points would be slowed by the presence of existing religions ( on a per city basis maybe?), and especially by ownership of holy cities. The religion points are a mechanic to prevent one player dominating a large proportion of all religions founded...