[Religion and Revolution]: Swords, Guns, Cannons and Ammunition

[raystuttgart]

Swords, Guns, Cannons and Ammunition

Ok, fist let me try to mention some things to understand the following.

1. We already have Yield_Coal and Yield_Cannons.
2. With feature "Multiple Professions Per Building" it is possible that several Profession share the same building.
3. We will later on implement a huge concept "Inventions" but the basic concept is independent of that for now.
4. Ammunition does not need to be resupplied to units all the time, it is not used up but needed for initialy equipping only.
5. This concept would introduce two new YIELD_SWORDS and YIELD_GUNPOWDER (to hopefully final number of 54).
6. Graphics for those 2 new yields already exist in DoANE.
7. This concept however is different to the one of DoANE.

-----------------------------

Basic ideas:

Especially in the beginning of the area of colonizing the new world, mostly hand weapons were used.
Guns were pretty rare.

Thus in the beginning the chances between Natives and "Conquerors" were relatively equal
but changing over time when guns became more common.

The concept / feature should not be too complicated and thus totally destroy fun for casual players

-----------------------------

Part A: Production

1. Tools and Swords are both produced in the same building (SPECIALBUILDING_TOOLS) from Yield Iron.
Professions "Blacksmith (Tools)" and "Blacksmith (Swords)" with same Specialist "Master Blacksmith" for both.

2. Guns and Cannons are both produced in the same building (SPECIALBUILDING_MUSKETS) from Iron and Wood.
Professions "Gunmaker" and "Cannonsmith" with each having their own Specialists "Master Gunmaker" and "Master Cannonsmith".

3. Ammunition or better Gunpowder produced from Yield Coal. (Graphics used from DoANE)
Profession "Gunpowdermaker" with Specialist "Master Gunpowdermaker".

We could

a) use SPECIALBUILDING_MUSKETS as well, so we would have 3 Professions in this Specialbuilding
--> Feature "Multiple Professions per Building" would need to be adjusted and might also not look very nice

b) introduce SPECIALBUILDING_GUNPOWDER
--> One more building slot needed in CityScreen

I really prefer b)

-----------------------------

Part B: Usage

2 Professions for Infantery

Militia: (50 Swords)

Pretty much as strong as Natives but smaller bonusses from terrain.

Regulars: (50 Guns and 10 Gunpowder)

Stronger that Militia (and thus also than Natives) generally in open terrain and attacking and defending cities.
But they will get Malus in wood-terrains.

Comment:
When creating stacks of units it will be a good idea, to have both of these Infantery Types.
(Militia for defending in wood-terrains and Regulars to actually fight on open terrain and conquer the cities.)


2 Profession for Cavalry

Dragoons (50 Guns, 10 Gunpowder and 50 Horses)

Pretty much the same as Regulars only faster.
When those were drawn into combat, they usually got off their horses to fight.
Of course they will have a bonus against cannons, because they can simply cross the distance to close up a lot faster.

Cuirassiers: (50 Swords, and 50 Horses)

These guys are the counter specialists.
They used to fight on horseback and having devastating rides with close combat fighting.
Generally, they are weaker than Dragoons when fighting Infantery (also Natives) or attacking cities.
Against other Cavalry however, they get a big bonus.
Also their bonus against cannons is a little larger than for Dragoons.

Comment:
While most of the Cavalry will probably be the generally stronger Dragoons, it is still a good idea to have some Cuirassiers
to counter the enemies Dragoons or catch unprotected enemy Cannons.


Cannons

As we already decided earlier, we will change cannons from Units to Professions.

So, when equipping a colonist with Cannons, he will also need Gunpowder.

Formula:
Amount Gunpowder needed for Profession = Amount Cannons / 2

Colonies:

Cannon Garrison --> 50 Cannons and 25 Gunpowder

Mainly used for defending cities.
Otherwise efficient only on open terrain against infantery.

(Siege)Cannon --> 70 Cannons and 35 Gunpowder
(when introducin "Invention" these could be unlocked by an invention)

A little stronger than Cannon Garrison when fighting Infantery on open terrain.
A little weaker against Cavalry because they are bigger and slower.
The best choice for attacking cities and destroying their defensive buildings.

Comment:
Cannon Garrisons are mainly used for defending cities.
Siege Cannon are the best choice for attacking cities and bombarding city defense.
(It is a good idea to defend these Siege Cannons by Infantery on their way to the enemy cities ...)

Kings:
(Royal) Artillery --> 80 Cannons and 40 Gunpowder

Ships

When building ships, there will be a certain amount of Cannons needed.
Here also Gunpowder will be needed (see Formula above).


General Comments:

The "Gunpowder"-Types are a little stronger and versatile.
Still it is a good idea to have a mix of units because also the "Sword"-Types have their special usage.

Gunpowder-Units are a little more difficult to equip because of the additional "Gunpowder" needed.

Cannons and Gunpowder-Units should be a little more rare in the beginning until you have fully built up your weapons industry,
which I feel that it is realistic.

-----------------------------

Feedback ?

[colonialfan]

This all sounds good to me.

[raystuttgart]

Small change:

Guns and Cannons are made from Iron and Wood.
(Multiple Yields Consumed)

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by colonialfan

This all sounds good to me.

Great.

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi everyone,

There are many good ideas here!

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Swords, Guns, Cannons and Ammunition

Ok, fist let me try to mention some things to understand the following.

1. We already have Yield_Coal and Yield_Cannons.
2. With feature "Multiple Professions Per Building" it is possible that several Profession share the same building.
3. We will later on implement a huge concept "Inventions" but the basic concept is independent of that for now.
4. Ammunition does not need to be resupplied to units all the time, it is not used up but needed for initially equipping only.
5. This concept would introduce two new YIELD_SWORDS and YIELD_GUNPOWDER (to hopefully final number of 54).
6. Graphics for those 2 new yields already exist in DoANE.
7. This concept however is different to the one of DoANE.

All right. I agree. I'll have to ask them for that too. (I mean Dazio and M07 )

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Basic ideas:

Especially in the beginning of the area of colonizing the new world, mostly hand weapons were used.
Guns were pretty rare.

Thus in the beginning the chances between Natives and "Conquerors" were relatively equal
but changing over time when guns became more common.

The concept / feature should not be too complicated and thus totally destroy fun for casual players

I agree. But we still have to discuss the actual strength of each unit, and test it before we release anything !

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Part A: Production

1. Tools and Swords are both produced in the same building (SPECIALBUILDING_TOOLS) from Yield Iron.
Professions "Blacksmith (Tools)" and "Blacksmith (Swords)" with same Specialist "Master Blacksmith" for both.

2. Guns and Cannons are both produced in the same building (SPECIALBUILDING_MUSKETS) from Iron and Wood.
Professions "Gunmaker" and "Cannonsmith" with each having their own Specialists "Master Gunmaker" and "Master Cannonsmith".

3. Ammunition or better Gunpowder produced from Yield Coal. (Graphics used from DoANE)
Profession "Gunpowdermaker" with Specialist "Master Gunpowdermaker".

We could

a) use SPECIALBUILDING_MUSKETS as well, so we would have 3 Professions in this Specialbuilding
--> Feature "Multiple Professions per Building" would need to be adjusted and might also not look very nice

b) introduce SPECIALBUILDING_GUNPOWDER
--> One more building slot needed in CityScreen

I really prefer b)

1. I agree !
2. You actually mean you don't want guns to be produced from tools. Why is that?
Iron and wood is not a bad idea. But is it better than tools. Maybe you're right, maybe not. Could you explain your idea, please?
3. b. Sounds good. One day or another we might have to consider a scrollable city-screen. But for now I think we have plenty of free space...

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Part B: Usage
2 Professions for Infantery

Militia: (50 Swords)

Pretty much as strong as Natives but smaller bonusses from terrain.

Regulars: (50 Guns and 10 Gunpowder)

Stronger that Militia (and thus also than Natives) generally in open terrain and attacking and defending cities.
But they will get Malus in wood-terrains.

Comment:
When creating stacks of units it will be a good idea, to have both of these Infantery Types.
(Militia for defending in wood-terrains and Regulars to actually fight on open terrain and conquer the cities.)

The idea of having to sorts of infantry sounds very interesting. I agree. But we will have to be very careful when we add inventions. We mustn't unbalance the game. So for now, I'm OK. I really like your ideas again, Ray

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

2 Profession for Cavalry
Dragoons (50 Guns, 10 Gunpowder and 50 Horses)

Pretty much the same as Regulars only faster.
When those were drawn into combat, they usually got off their horses to fight.
Of course they will have a bonus against cannons, because they can simply cross the distance to close up a lot faster.

Cuirassiers: (50 Swords, and 50 Horses)

These guys are the counter specialists.
They used to fight on horseback and having devastating rides with close combat fighting.
Generally, they are weaker than Dragoons when fighting Infantery (also Natives) or attacking cities.
Against other Cavalry however, they get a big bonus.
Also their bonus against cannons is a little larger than for Dragoons.

Comment:
While most of the Cavalry will probably be the generally stronger Dragoons, it is still a good idea to have some Cuirassiers
to counter the enemies Dragoons or catch unprotected enemy Cannons.

Well, if I'm correct, historically Dragoons are light cavalry and Cuirassiers are heavy cavalry. So, something seems wrong to me... But I like the idea...
I would "give" the 10 gunpowder to the cuirassiers. What do you think? Am I right?

[Robert Surcouf]

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Cannons

As we already decided earlier, we will change cannons from Units to Professions.
So, when equipping a colonist with Cannons, he will also need Gunpowder.
Formula:
Amount Gunpowder needed for Profession = Amount Cannons / 2
Example:
50 Cannons, 25 Gunpowder

I don't understand
We're only going to add ONE profession, aren't we? So we cannot choose haw many cannons we want to have... or can we? Am I daydreaming? Let's say I put 1 000 cannons () and 500 gunpowder, do I get a major unit with 25 ?!
I mean the amount of cannons should be determined... Let's say 50 !

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Ships
When building ships, there will be a certain amount of Cannons needed.
Here also Gunpowder will be needed (see Formula above).

Here I understand. There will indeed be a certain amount of cannons needed. And your formula seems good.

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

General Comments:
The "Gunpowder"-Types are a little stronger and versatile.
Still it is a good idea to have a mix of units because also the "Sword"-Types have their special usage.

Gunpowder-Units are a little more difficult to equip because of the additional "Gunpowder" needed.

Cannons and Gunpowder-Units should be a little more rare in the beginning until you have fully built up your weapons industry,
which I feel that it is realistic.

I agree
The game will be a little more strategic! We will have to choose wisely our troops!

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I really like your ideas again, Ray

Great.

Sorry if I did not explain everything as thoroughly as I should have.
(It is actually a pretty old concept of mine and I sometimes forget that I did not already discuss many details with you guys ...)

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

All right. I agree. I'll have to ask them for that too. (I mean Dazio and M07 )

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I agree. But we still have to discuss the actual strength of each unit, and test it before we release anything !

Yes, sure.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

You actually mean you don't want guns to be produced from tools. Why is that?

Iron and wood is not a bad idea. But is it better than tools. Maybe you're right, maybe not. Could you explain your idea, please?

For 3 reasons:

A) AI

AI is pretty bad a handling long productionlines.
Currently AI uses up almost all tools for producing weapons.
When producing buildings it almost always hurries the production and spends a lot of money doing so.

Now we would have Tools, Swords, Guns and Cannons.
This would make things even more complicated for AI.

With the concept "Tools and Swords from Iron and Guns and Cannons from Iron and Wood" it will be much easier for me
to teach AI how to wisely keep balance between these 4 Yields.

B) Authenticity

It simply feels more realistic to me, that Guns and Cannons are produced like that and not from Tools.
I never liked that.

C) Gameplay

I simply would like to have these productionlines independent.
In one city you could produce tools and swords.
In another you could produce guns and cannons (and eventually gunpowder).
(Basically that is also one aspect, I will try to teach AI.)

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

One day or another we might have to consider a scrollable city-screen. But for now I think we have plenty of free space...

Actually there are several solutions in my mind for the problem "Slots in CityScreen".
(But let us discuss that, when we are really running out of slots.)

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

The idea of having two sorts of infantry sounds very interesting. I agree. But we will have to be very careful when we add inventions. We mustn't unbalance the game.

Yes, but as I said before Inventions is a really big concept, we will probably do much later, because there are so many things we will have to consider ...

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Well, if I'm correct, historically Dragoons are light cavalry and Cuirassiers are heavy cavalry. So, something seems wrong to me... But I like the idea...
I would "give" the 10 gunpowder to the cuirassiers. What do you think? Am I right?

So, ok let us talk about historical correctness here.

Dragoons were mounted Infantery with Firearms.
When fighting, they unmounted and fought just as normal Infangery with firearms of that time.
(just what I wrote)

50 Guns, 50 Horses and 10 Gunpowder seems good to me.

Cuirassiers were really, what we would consider Cavalry.
They were fighting on horesback and usually in close combat with devastating rides through the enemy lines.
Later on they had 2 pistols (before that they had lances mostly), they fired at close range, often switching to swords after that.

So instead of 50 Swords and 50 Horses, we could do
50 Swords, 25 Guns, 50 Horses and 5 Ammunition.

This however would be much more difficult for AI ...
Thus I would like to stay with 50 Swords and 50 Horses

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I don't understand
We're only going to add ONE profession, aren't we? So we cannot choose haw many cannons we want to have... or can we? Am I daydreaming? Let's say I put 1 000 cannons () and 500 gunpowder, do I get a major unit with 25 ?!
I mean the amount of cannons should be determined... Let's say 50 !

No, sorry.
I did not explain properly.

We would have more than one profession for Artillery, because we also have more than one unit for Artillery.

Especially if we add Inventions unlocking new types.
(I would simply unlock new Professions then. But that is a topic for later then.)

For now:

In TAC they are named:

Colonies:
Cannon Garrison --> 50 Cannons and 25 Gunpowder
Cannon --> 70 Cannons and 35 Gunpowder

Kings:
(Royal) Artillery --> 80 Cannons and 40 Gunpowder

I will put this in the summary above, too.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

The game will be a little more strategic!

Yes, it is one of my favourite concepts to bring more tactics and strategy to the game.

[raystuttgart]

@colonialfan and Robert:

If I do understand you correct, both of you accept this concept in general ?
(Details of course, we still have to work out.)

And again, please excuse, if sometimes I have difficulties to explain details of my concepts.
(It is like many many rivers flowing together to form bigger streams, which again flow into a gigantic ocean of a mod.)

[Robert Surcouf]

Yes I like the idea! And yes I understand.

I've received a message from M07. He agrees to let us use Cannons, Swords and Gunpowder. Of course, we should add Dazio and M07 to our credits.

To Dazio and M07:

[raystuttgart]

Great news.

And of course Dazio and M07 will be in our credits.

Edit:
Credits are updated.

Thank you guys.

[colonialfan]

Yes I understand and agree with it as well.

[Androrc the Orc]

About the swords, one possibility is making the Swordsman be equipped with tools, rather than have a special yield. I also think that is a better solution than having a generic "weapons" yield, since the "guns" yield is there precisely to differentiate gunpowder civilizations (Europeans) from non-gunpowder civilizations (Indians), and the acquisition of gunpowder arms is supposed to strengthen the natives later on.

[Robert Surcouf]

Oh yes indeed ! In an early version of Dawn of a New Era they implemented that.
You're right. But they decided to change that. I forgot why... Maybe it's more realistic to have swords... Let me think about it. I'll even ask them if I see them...

By the way, I really like you livestock breeding modcomp !

[Androrc the Orc]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Oh yes indeed ! In an early version of Dawn of a New Era they implemented that.
You're right. But they decided to change that. I forgot why... Maybe it's more realistic to have swords... Let me think about it. I'll even ask them if I see them...

By the way, I really like you livestock breeding modcomp !

Thanks

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Androrc the Orc

About the swords, one possibility is making the Swordsman be equipped with tools, rather than have a special yield.

I would really prefer to introduce a new Yield "Swords".
(Produced in same building as "Tools" with "Multiple Professions Per Building".)

[Androrc the Orc]

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

I would really prefer to introduce a new Yield "Swords".

That would be ideal, if there aren't too many yields already.

(Produced in same building as "Tools" with "Multiple Professions Per Building".)

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Androrc the Orc

That would be ideal, if there aren't too many yields already.

We have already figured that out, don't worry.

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

5. This concept would introduce two new YIELD_SWORDS and YIELD_GUNPOWDER (to hopefully final number of 54).

In the end we will have 54 tradable / material Yields.
(Which fits exactly into our plans and also our Screens, including Advisor-Screens.)

[colonialfan]

Just wondering how invested are we going to be in swords and swordsmen? From a weapons point of view, the predominence of edged weapons ends by the mid 1600's, being replaced by muskets. Swords are useful to trade with the natives who do not possess metal weapons, but in the long term how useful would they be to a colony when you have muskets, cannon etc?

Maybe only certain units could have swords, (Conquistadores for example). Afterall it takes more skill to learn and master than a musket, and perhaps those units/technology could be phased out in a colony once a colony has the ability to produce muskets. Just a thought!

[Gomer_Pyle]

Since we are going the realistic way here as pointed out so many times. Do we have any proof of swords/swordsmen being widely used by europeans and natives in this period? I am not too sure about swords either. Conquistadores is probably the only good choice as a swordmen here.

Maybe we could instead of making a new Yield_Sword. Make both Musket and Sword into a Yield_Weapon and use different amount of Weapons required per unit type? Sounds more logical and less complicated too me.