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Old Dec 01, 2011, 07:56 PM   #21
Abegweit
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From axe wielding dudes to spaceships, is there anything trees can't make?
They're really bad at making baby trees.
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 09:03 PM   #22
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I'm actually kind of surprised that this is news to so many people.

Failgold is nice, but it isn't always correct to take, pretty often you will want to turn those forests into hammers for settlers & workers, units, or a workboat/monument/granary.

But yeah, if you've got the wonder resource and forests + worker turns to spare, go for it.
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 09:13 PM   #23
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You missed a major part there entirely.
Not to mention, the MORE wonders you are willing to build, the greater the Library gets...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, GS.

But the kicker is this: GPP and Wonder-Spam really only begins to kick in near the end of the game. The gold comes IMMEDIATELY. And at a critical time too. For HOF games that focus on win date, the Wonders, even the Great Library, come too late to matter much. One of the major problems with HOF games is the lack of early commerce post-massive expansion, and the fail-gold mechanics is perfect for it.

1 forest = 250 gold for IND civs at Marathon. This is quite insane. Even for non-HOF games, this gives Wonder-spam a run for its money. Even with hordes of GPP, you're only going to generate one or two more GP over the part of the game that matters if you're non-PHI.

8-10 forests is effectively worth 1 Great Merchant. This is pretty incredible.
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 09:16 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Keilah View Post
I'm actually kind of surprised that this is news to so many people.

Failgold is nice, but it isn't always correct to take, pretty often you will want to turn those forests into hammers for settlers & workers, units, or a workboat/monument/granary.

But yeah, if you've got the wonder resource and forests + worker turns to spare, go for it.
My argument is that at slower speeds and larger maps like Epic and Marathon, fail-gold is a BETTER way of spending forests than settlers, workers, units, etc.. A ratio of 1 hammer for 2.75 gold is a VERY effective exchange rate. You rely on the whips to get the necessary workboats, granaries, and courthouses out to work the important tiles. You rely on the forests and the fail-gold for commerce.

This has been used before. But no one has yet fully developed a strategy around it that utilizes FOREST chops for massive amounts of fail-gold. Rhino's fail-gold game was based solely around whip overflow and hammer-build of fail Wonders.
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 09:25 PM   #25
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What is the hammer decay rate for buildings on Marathon?
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 09:32 PM   #26
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What is the hammer decay rate for buildings on Marathon?
Related thought - what's the forest regrowth rate on marathon?

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Like, I would make crap cities IN ORDER TO GET MORE FOREST TILES.
That strikes me as a dubious idea unless you have a way to keep expenses down. What's the math on the cost side?
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 09:39 PM   #27
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Maintenance isn't too bad once you have Currency. Just have your crap cities build wealth and it almost pays for itself. Plop it on a plains hill, and have it work a three-hammer tile, and it's producing 5 gold. Add in the extra trade routes and it's at 7 gold, and paying for itself.

Granted that early-game you want better cities, but sometime around late-classical, early-medieval era, post-Currency, these "crap" cities are actually pretty valuable.

And this is if you choose not to develop it. If you choose add in a barracks and a granary, and some farms, it makes a mighty good draft and whip city.

For IND civs, each forest added is 250 gold at optimal exchange. You'll have to factor in decay, but if things go well, six added forests mean 1500 gold.

The bigger issue here is whether you have the land and the worker turns for this. I.e. the opportunity cost.
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 09:48 PM   #28
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My argument is that at slower speeds and larger maps like Epic and Marathon, fail-gold is a BETTER way of spending forests than settlers, workers, units, etc.. A ratio of 1 hammer for 2.75 gold is a VERY effective exchange rate. You rely on the whips to get the necessary workboats, granaries, and courthouses out to work the important tiles. You rely on the forests and the fail-gold for commerce.

This has been used before. But no one has yet fully developed a strategy around it that utilizes FOREST chops for massive amounts of fail-gold. Rhino's fail-gold game was based solely around whip overflow and hammer-build of fail Wonders.
Well I don't know about marathon, but on normal speed you almost never have wonders available to you until after the settler/worker phase is completed, unless you start with Mysticism or rush Masonry.
If you start with Mysticism and are IND, you are Huayna Capac and he frankly is so OP I don't like to use him. If you are not IND, you don't have wonder resources until after Masonry + hooking them up which in most cases will be inferior to a different opening. And of course, the Mysticism/Masonry wonders go really early. Oh right, and you also need bronze working + spare worker turns for this to apply.

On normal speed the usual time to start serious failbuilding is with aesthetics, by which time you should have built all your settlers and most/all of your workers.
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 09:54 PM   #29
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Well I don't know about marathon, but on normal speed you almost never have wonders available to you until after the settler/worker phase is completed, unless you start with Mysticism or rush Masonry.
If you start with Mysticism and are IND, you are Huayna Capac and he frankly is so OP I don't like to use him. If you are not IND, you don't have wonder resources until after Masonry + hooking them up which in most cases will be inferior to a different opening. And of course, the Mysticism/Masonry wonders go really early. Oh right, and you also need bronze working + spare worker turns for this to apply.

On normal speed the usual time to start serious failbuilding is with aesthetics, by which time you should have built all your settlers and most/all of your workers.
Yes. That's exactly the time when I'm suggesting the fail-gold to kick in. Late-classical, early-medieval.

The Temple of Artemis and the Parthenon are really good Wonders for this. So is the Chicken Pizza and the Statue of Zeus for Stone and Ivory respectively. If worst comes to worst, and you only have Bronze, there's always the Colossus.
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 11:47 PM   #30
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Remember that you're also talking about in the optimal case. Nevermind the multiplier, you're assuming the forests are right next to you.

I think it's a good idea, but its uses are limited. Imo, junk cities are only worth building after Civil Service or so (spread irrigation, you've run out of good spots, better handle on expenses, etc.)

How about this: you build a city for the sole purpose of chopping and then donate the useless city. That way, it could be worth a ton of hammers/ gold and diplo points.
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 11:51 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by MarigoldRan View Post

I'm rich. RICH!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! And I'm not even IND!!!!
And 2 turns later comes Zara knocking on your doors, saying something like "hey I like you, but I like your 5k gold more, gief!"... what you do?
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Old Dec 02, 2011, 12:59 AM   #32
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I don't see the extra point with the trees.

Say you have marble, a couple of trees and have two desires.

You want to build the oracle (just for failgold), and build a settler.

You can either put your chops into the oracle, and slow-build a settler.
Or you can chop the settler and slowbuild the oracle.

If you chop for failgold, your settler comes in slower...

So obviosly, it's just a matter of what your priorities are. And it seems as your only prio right now, is to get filthy rich.
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Old Dec 02, 2011, 01:52 AM   #33
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Related thought - what's the forest regrowth rate on marathon?
I would suspect that the rate of decay on buildings, are just 3 times what it is on normal. I don't know for certain though.

I don't know about forest regrowth rate either, but from experience I can usually expect 1 or maybee two regrows in my capital up to liberalism, that is if there are any forests there, and I don't clearcut.

It's still to little and too unreliable to factor in.
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Old Dec 02, 2011, 02:00 AM   #34
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BTW i'd like to point out that forests aren't special compared to whip overflow or regular slowbuilding. There's no reason you can't use any one, two, or all three methods - a hammer is a hammer is a hammer, when it comes to building wonders.
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Old Dec 02, 2011, 02:13 AM   #35
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BTW i'd like to point out that forests aren't special compared to whip overflow or regular slowbuilding. There's no reason you can't use any one, two, or all three methods - a hammer is a hammer is a hammer, when it comes to building wonders.
Yeah, this is what I am saying as well.
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Old Dec 02, 2011, 03:10 AM   #36
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The advantage of forests is that they let you generate a large burst of production in a short time. So often you save them until there is a time-limited opportunity to do something uniquely valuable with that production. Forest hammers are slightly more valuable than regular hammers - there are times you slow-build something because you don't want to waste a forest you can use better later.

MarigoldRan's point is that if you can get 2.5 gold per hammer until a specific wonder is built, chopping forests can be just such a uniquely valuable, time-sensitive opportunity. He's not saying failgold isn't worth getting with ordinary hammers; he's saying that it can be worth chopping down forests to get it (which isn't true for all production).
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Old Dec 02, 2011, 04:21 AM   #37
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Think failaxis patches this out too ? They certainly didn't like trees = gold for overflow, so why is trees = gold for wonders different?

So sad.....
Is it sad because you dislike change, or because you genuinely and objectively think that fail gold as is makes for a better game?
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Old Dec 02, 2011, 04:25 AM   #38
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Fail gold should be done in the exact same way as overflow hammers from building a building with a trait, then it would be perfecly OK.
Failgold as it is, doesn't feel like it works like intended.
I would be happier if it was patched.
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Old Dec 02, 2011, 05:39 AM   #39
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One of the major problems with HOF games is the lack
Hold on one second. When ever anyone on the forum starts to validate some strategy by comparing it to an HOF game, any logical arguement from that point ends up out the window...

BTW, every HoF map I've seen has had Gems on every second tile, so I'm not sure why they'd even need more commerce.
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Old Dec 02, 2011, 05:48 AM   #40
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Hold on one second. When ever anyone on the forum starts to validate some strategy by comparing it to an HOF game, any logical arguement from that point ends up out the window...

BTW, every HoF map I've seen has had Gems on every second tile, so I'm not sure why they'd even need more commerce.
Not to mention Tribal Villages, aka "HoF slot machines".
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