[Story] Star of the Shogun: Realpolitik

[Dem Taqat]

I trust no intelligence and insight besides my own.* Well, I trust Ravus intelligence and insight, but only that it exists, not that any advice I may or may not receive from it is actually the best thing I could do under the circumstances.

DT

*For certain definitions of 'no'

[Captain Fargle]

Diggler, do you wnat me to tell you my plans In Character or Out of Character?

[arya126]

Originally Posted by Jehoshua

The Extended Plan has been submitted. I am now proceeding to draft laws to enshrine the democratic process, provide a means of deposing a shogun without internecine conflict, and ensure the priveleges of japanese citizens are protected

These laws shall be proposed to the cabinet by tomorrow for comment, and then if there is no major problem they shall be proposed publicly. After public feedback and after any alterations are made the entirety of the laws proposed, including those previously mentioned will be officially made the law of the Empire.

*Enshrine Democratic Process: Waste of a law. Democracy is absolute. Part of the rules. A president couldn't change the government, nor could the players, even if they wanted to.

*Providing a means of deposing a shogun without conflict: Waste of a law. Yeah I hate to break it to you, but its called voting him out, or in Christos's case, not voting him in.

*Ensure privileges of japanese citizens are protected: Will be obsolete as soon as a president comes around that wants to violate these privileges. A president could just abolish these so called 'laws' and carry on with his plans that go against them.

OOC: Stop focusing on laws. Thats not the point of an RP. Yes, it is important to role-play, but laws just add a whole new level of complications to the game that aren't needed, not to mention they serve no purpose because as Ive mentioned, a president could just ignore these. It is my understanding that some basic semblance of laws against murder and such are here, or at least ingrained in tradition so that those who commit such acts are punished. The way these other things are handled will depend on who gets voted into office and based on precedent, not on laws.

Now, you don't have to listen to me, but I'm just trying to shift the focus of this RP away from laws, and onto what it traditionally is, role-playing immortals.

[christos200]

In this game elections can be terminated.

[arya126]

Sorry for the double post. Bad planning.

Originally Posted by Captain Fargle

Not while I'm still running it you won't. You, dear Arya, are a political timebomb and I don't intend to be the one left holding it when the fuse runs out.

Hey! Im useful! And by saying I might join it, I was saying its a good idea for a party and my character could agree with those ideas.

In any case, I'm not the same arya from mid RP1.

Originally Posted by christos200

Arya, we beleive in a federal gonverment. So why not join my party??

......Because YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT IN AN RP! Get that through your skull, as not only would it ruin the concept of an RP, but it is impractical given the number of players in and how many of them are that active. It simply wouldn't work, and it wouldn't make sense as decentralization would be BAD for Japan right now. The peoples voices are already heard through voting in case you didn't know.

Also, even if all that were not true, the fact that your the one leading it.

[arya126]

Originally Posted by christos200

In this game elections can be terminated.

Wait what? Oh jeez....LH what have you done now?

But in any case, laws would not protect it, as the president could simply abolish them. Same concept.

[christos200]

As i said you can change gonverment and terminate elections. This RP isnt the same as the old ones. Learn the changes.

[JoanK]

ooc: At least for once, christos is right. And here we've had an argument because one of the first laws proposed was to make it more difficult to eliminate those laws, but made it virtually impossible, so it is being rethought.

[Lighthearter]

Hey, I just figured I'd give a reason for Armed Revolution to exist

-L

[Jwitti]

wait a sec I messed up-- I wrote my comment and when I had finished there were around 5-6 replies that obsoleted my comment (aaargh)

But anyway, armed Revolution is a bad idea at this moment. And so would be trying to change the laws we made, considering they/we are still in office!

[arya126]

Hey Christos. Read the rest of my above reply to you. It probably won't get through your skull, but we can all hope you might recognize the impracticality of the government you are proposing.

How about we leave laws alone? Im all for no restrictions on the president. if they do anything the opposition doesn't like, bad things happen, including getting voted out. If they do something too extreme, AR or worse might happen.

Also, LH, Ive had some ideas for AR. Make it similar to a civil war. Like, at the end of it, a certain number of improvements and buildings around the nation are destroyed, simulating the fighting and its toll, that way its less than appetizing to power hungry people, and only insane people would act as extreme presidents.

[Nukeknockout]

Originally Posted by arya126

*Enshrine Democratic Process: Waste of a law. Democracy is absolute. Part of the rules. A president couldn't change the government, nor could the players, even if they wanted to.

*Providing a means of deposing a shogun without conflict: Waste of a law. Yeah I hate to break it to you, but its called voting him out, or in Christos's case, not voting him in.

*Ensure privileges of japanese citizens are protected: Will be obsolete as soon as a president comes around that wants to violate these privileges. A president could just abolish these so called 'laws' and carry on with his plans that go against them.

1: Not anymore. If a Shogun wants to, they can suspend elections.

2: Why would a Shogun listen to the law?

3: Why would a Shogun listen to the law if it got in their way?

The Shogun & the Admin basically have absolute power as long as they enjoy support. Or they could just refuse to enforce these laws.

-Daimyo Nukeknockout

[arya126]

Originally Posted by Nukeknockout

1: Not anymore. If a Shogun wants to, they can suspend elections.

2: Why would a Shogun listen to the law?

3: Why would a Shogun listen to the law if it got in their way?

The Shogun & the Admin basically have absolute power as long as they enjoy support. Or they could just refuse to enforce these laws.

-Daimyo Nukeknockout

That was basically my point.

[JoanK]

A Shogun shall listen to the law because the law says so. The law is above the Shogun once he can't revoke it. He would listen to the law if it got in his way because if not he will be facing an AR.

[Nukeknockout]

Originally Posted by JoanK

A Shogun shall listen to the law because the law says so. The law is above the Shogun once he can't revoke it. He would listen to the law if it got in his way because if not he will be facing an AR.

And? If the Shogun enjoys the support of a majority of the Daimyos/commoners, then this is nothing to fear. The officials in power, if they support the Shogun, or the Shogun himself, if all power is concentrated in the Shogun, can also merely refuse to enforce laws instead of outright repealing them.

Why would the Shogun listen to the law because the law says he should? Sure, he may face a rebellion by the feudal lords, but part of being the Shogun is being the most dangerous of the lords, or having the greatest lords on retainer.

-Daimyo Nukeknockout

[arya126]

Originally Posted by JoanK

A Shogun shall listen to the law because the law says so. The law is above the Shogun once he can't revoke it. He would listen to the law if it got in his way because if not he will be facing an AR.

The point is, he CAN revoke it. If you make a law claiming he can't revoke laws, he will simply revoke that law first. You cannot bind the shogun with laws, because you cannot bind the nature of the game which gives the shogun absolute power. Yes, you make laws and set precedent, but that will not guarantee future shoguns following them.

If he got elected, then that means he has a base of support. If that base of support stays with him when he ignores the laws, and only a crazy man would do anything extreme such as suspend elections without the support of his power base, then he will more than likely have a good amount of support should the opposition try an AR. Meaning, that the AR would be likely to fail, unless you were able to convince enough of his supporters to abandon him.

[JoanK]

The laws are supposed to be wise, and thus shouldn't be revoked or ignored. If a law says that a Shogun can't revoke laws, he can revoke it first, but it wouldn't have been wise to do such a law, because what is wise under some circumstances may not be the best in other circumstances and thus a consensus shall be achieved on the issue of revoking laws.

That way, revoking the law that prevents the Shogun from unilaterally revoking a law would imply that such consensus will put the majority AGAINST him, granting that an AR would be fought and that the Shogun wouldn't necessarily win.

[christos200]

Look, no ie cares about your laws, because many of the opposiion leaders dissagree with them. So if they win the election they would change and no one cares about you threatening to call an AR.

[Dem Taqat]

Originally Posted by christos200

no one cares about you threatening to call an AR.

A lesson leaned from experiance.

DT

[JoanK]

Well, we're actually trying to create consensus. It's a very Japanese way of doing things. We are exposing the plans so that you can give us feedback, and so we can improve these laws so that the most people agree that they are good and to ensure that an abuse of the power will carry an AR with it.

EDIT: ooc: How amazing! Post number 1000!!!