Rank the UBs!

[strijder20]

Agreed with Mylene, can't see how everyone is so excited about the Baray.
All it does is allowing you to replace a farm with something else, and almost every UB is worth more than an improvement.
And in really large cities health = food, so in that expect even the garden is doing better.

[AutomatedTeller]

I'm certainly agreeing that the dike is stronger than the feitoria, but then, I'm not sure that saying the levee is a stronger base building is all that big a deal, since a lot of cities that build a levee get little or no extra value from a dike, since they are land locked. The big thing about the dike is that it can be built where levee's can't.

On a different note - I'm getting a little more enthused about buildings that boost culture, such as the madrassa (4 vs 2) or the stele. They don't help a huge amount, but they really help with culture wars on your borders.

[Skallagrimson]

Ikhanda. Allows extra city spam in the early game when it's needed the most.

[enKage]

Hmmm

Fantastic
ger (yes yes yes)
Ikhanda
Seowon
Pavilon
Sac altar
rathaus
cothon
trading post

Good
Totem Pole (1) ! it allows you to build 10XP unit! barracks + totem pole + theo + vassal = heroic epic without declaring war when playing with no barbs, extremely useful on sem-isolated starts 2) great synergy with leader trait)
terrace
ball court
dike
madrassa

meh
citadel - nice, but who builds castles?
most others

oh no! That's a $%&^
stele
that japanese one I've never used

[bhavv]

MY opinion:

Top Tier:

Cothon
Ikhanda
Rathouse
Ziggurat
Sac Alter
Terrace

Good:

Mint
Dike
Ball Court
Hammam
Madrassa
Apothecary
Hippodrome
Odeon

Ok:

Mall
Garden
Baray
Mausoleum
Obelisk
Totem Pole
Ger
Salon
Citadel
Pavilion
Seowon
Stock Exchange
Trading Post
Shale Plant

LolwthwhywouldIbuildthatjunk:

Dun
Stele
Assembly Plant
Feitora
Forum

WaitaminuteIforgotthemostuselessUBever:

Research Institute

[jammci]

Originally Posted by strijder20

^That made me laugh.

Fantastic:
Ziggurat
Terrace
Ikhanda
Cothon
Dike
Hammam
Citadel
Ger

Good:
Madrassa
Mint
Seowon
Pavilion
Odeon
Sacrificial Altar
Rathaus
Shale plant
Stock Exchange

Meh:
Obelisk
Salon
Stele
Dun
Mausoleum
Baray
Trading post
Hippodrome

Crap:
Assembly Plant
Totem pole
Mall
Feitoria (except if you are playing a financial leader)
Forum
Research institute
Apothecary
Garden

Interesting, however, the mall is good as its more money and food, so it should be in the meh as all it does is provide food, health and money bonuses

[traius]

Originally Posted by strijder20

^That made me laugh.

Fantastic:
Ziggurat
Terrace
Ikhanda
Cothon
Dike
Hammam
Citadel
Ger

Good:
Madrassa
Mint
Seowon
Pavilion
Odeon
Sacrificial Altar
Rathaus
Shale plant
Stock Exchange

Meh:
Obelisk
Salon
Stele
Dun
Mausoleum
Baray
Trading post
Hippodrome

Crap:
Assembly Plant
Totem pole
Mall
Feitoria (except if you are playing a financial leader)
Forum
Research institute
Apothecary
Garden

How can the ziggurat be the top "fantastic" when the sacrificial altar does everything it does and more? Sac Alt also only cost 3/4 base, like ziggy, but has another ability (?)

[TheMeInTeam]

Maybe if you REALLY struggle with tech priority and need that courthouse at priesthood . That or someone wants some serious early espionage...dunno. No way in reality is zib > sac altar. I would argue the aztec UU better too since it allows some cheezy worker stealing shenanigans, easy super medics without a great general, and replaces a niche unit anyway.

[plasmacannon]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

Maybe if you REALLY struggle with tech priority and need that courthouse at priesthood . That or someone wants some serious early espionage...dunno. No way in reality is zib > sac altar. I would argue the aztec UU better too since it allows some cheezy worker stealing shenanigans, easy super medics without a great general, and replaces a niche unit anyway.

(trying to think of a possibility)
Maybe, on a small or standard map on marathon speed when Sumeria has Copper in it's BFC and vulture rushes Aztec, before Sac Alts are available?
Sumeria could build it's Ziggs in newly conquered Aztec cities to begin to cover maintenaince costs.
This would be a very short window to act though.
I haven't had this happen in a game to know if there is time.
Also, I am thinking of AI Aztec, not player Aztec. The AI could move out of the woods to attack a city, leaving itself vulnrable.

[bhavv]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

Maybe if you REALLY struggle with tech priority and need that courthouse at priesthood . That or someone wants some serious early espionage...dunno. No way in reality is zib > sac altar. I would argue the aztec UU better too since it allows some cheezy worker stealing shenanigans, easy super medics without a great general, and replaces a niche unit anyway.

More cities earlier is good. Early Ziggurats allow you to rex faster, plus they cost less.

Anyway, cant you remember when you used to say stuff like:

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

Sumerian Ziggs don't get a lot of love either, despite coming with a tech you can actually get by BEGGING if you need to do it X_X.

Sumeria is the best Rex civ in the game, simple as that. Fast Libraries and early Courthouses = more cities sooner than anyone else. The other advantage is that you can effectively skip CoL, and go for other classical techs first instead.

[vranasm]

actually that bhavv's list isn't that bad...

i would move cothon and mint to "good" though and move baray to good-fantastic

and move Rathaus to another leader :-D

having courthouse on priesthood would be even better if it was on non-creative leader since then you're almost guaranteed to self tech myst. Med you need for Phi and Priesthood is definitely a lot cheaper then teching CoL.

Unless Oracling CoL I tend no to get priesthood before T100. Priesthood I would get sooner, much sooner

buildings based on colloseum I usually don't build since I forget I should tech construction for them (I usually don't do cats warfare and concentrate on bulbing/teching towards MT and pick up construction in AD's)

with aquaduct based buildings you have problem with the needs of math+masonry which you very rarely selftech (you go aesth route, then lit/music) and thus you rely on tech trades which is complicated issue.

[bhavv]

Actually I did over rate the mint, but no, not the Cothon. On a landlocked map sure its not great, but on Archipelago its No. 1.

Baray is meh, +1 for 100 , I thought you said yourself that you dont build Aqueducts everywhere. The Baray does very little extra, +1 isnt even as good as +2 from the Garden!

[enKage]

I am playing now Carthage game on Fractal map (actually it gave me sth like continents map) and can see the power of Cothon. I went straight to compass and astro (haha! I had explorers defending my cities! I had no archers yet). GLH + Cothons before libraries and courthouses = I have electricity and some very advance techs, when the best rival civs have longbows and are begging me for civil service or optics (monarch difficulty). I was 1 turn from rocketry in ca. 1550 AD - the best ever for me, as I am not a perfect player

[vranasm]

Originally Posted by bhavv

Actually I did over rate the mint, but no, not the Cothon. On a landlocked map sure its not great, but on Archipelago its No. 1.

Baray is meh, +1 for 100 , I thought you said yourself that you dont build Aqueducts everywhere. The Baray does very little extra, +1 isnt even as good as +2 from the Garden!

well I remember me playing Sury SG game where we built baray in our core everywhere.

Baray feeds on itself 1 grassland hill meaning he will pay back in cca 33 turns... so your core certainly can afford barays

edit:

the problem with cothon is that is based on Compass and harbors are not built that often. It's more map dependant and thus it is certainly not fantastic since its not universal enough. On some maps it's useless, on others high potential.

top tier should be only things that are generally applied everywhere.

Baray would be good, the same as cothon under these rules.

[TheMeInTeam]

Sumeria is the best Rex civ in the game, simple as that. Fast Libraries and early Courthouses = more cities sooner than anyone else. The other advantage is that you can effectively skip CoL, and go for other classical techs first instead.

There's nothing wrong with the zig. It's good, it just isn't a sac altar. And you're wrong about sumeria:

1. Courthouses are often not a top priority in the early game and tend to be a fairly heft sink to save 3-4 (or are you getting 10+ cities BCs?)
2. Priesthood is before CoL, yes. However, bureaucracy is a HUGE draw for a lot of maps and CoL is the short path there which means it often doesn't get delayed too long. For the timing of zigs to be a big deal, you'd have to want courthouses over other alternative improvements during that time window. Are you going to get courthouses before granaries? Libraries? Units? If not, there's a good chance you have code on a lot of maps already.
3. Sumeria's UU requires metal. Their default leader only has 1 trait good for expansion; he has nothing on leaders like sury, joao, cathy.
4. FIN bonus if you throw a few cottages can, with less investment, match the from courthouses so you can argue some FIN civs are ahead of sumeria too.

What classical techs would you get ahead of CoL? Currency, and? Or are we playing tech trades off + bigger maps? If so the zig gets an upgrade. Zig also gets an upgrade as difficulty goes up.

But even if it's better for expansion, it still can't be sac altar, which directly improves production and also comes at a discount. Chain whipping bonus resources with minimal penalty is that strong.

Baray is ok but it isn't top tier. It's a LOT better than the Khmer UU though.

[King Pluto]

I used to think Baray's were awesome, but I don't find them as critical as I once thought I would. It's essentially an early Supermarket, and how often does that 1 food make a big difference?

My favorites are the Sac Altar, Ikhanda, Hammam, Terrace, Ger, and Trading Post. I wouldn't argue that my list is definitive, but they're the ones that I'm always excited to have and nearly always make use of. I know the trading post isn't in the same tier as the others, but I have a soft spot for naval exploration and I love the +1 movement.

[Mylene]

Apothecary seems underrated, grocers are very good buildings when health becomes an issue and you will usually want one in every city when factories and coal plants come into play.
They come late but are really good..

[plasmacannon]

I revised the list. I think Stock Exchanges were given too low of a rating. I bumped it up a level.

Top Tier:
Ikhanda - Low city maintenaince very early
Rathaus - Lowest city maintenaince early game
Sac Altar - good for combat, bad for caste GP
Terrace - free on captured cities and generates +2 culture immediately

Good:
Stock Exchange - +15% gold mid game
Mint - +10% gold early game
Ziggurat - better on slower speed maps
Ball Court +3 happy w/o needing plantations
Hammam - good, but prefer to skip for Grocer instead
Odeon +3 culture, +2 happy, opens 2 artist slots, Great, but not game breaking
Hippodrome - more happiness is nice
Madrassa - could pollute GS pool, extra culture is nice
Dike - must place city on river or coast to use
Cothon - must go for coastal cities to use

Ok:
Ger - works well with UU, chariots, Curissiers
Obelisk - good for GP for religon or Golden Age
Apothecary - grocer already gives you health
Mall - late UB, better on huge maps
Totem Pole +3 archerxp is great, if you build archers. Leader is PRO, so overkill
Garden - could have skipped colloseum, now must build it. Have to really need that +2 health
Seowon - only 10%?
Trading Post - great for proving the world is round and for transports to attack continents later
Mausoleum - later UB, should have Calander already for Happiness
Citadel - requires castle/cannon path, not cuirssier.
Pavilion - good for cultural victory. If culture is not a problem, not really needed.

Poor
Salon - Late UB, GP pollution in Science city
Baray - an expensive building, little gain
Shale Plant - Late UB, can't use hydro plant
Dun - Situational, great for guerilla archers, LB, XB, musketmen, Grenadiers

Nothing Special:
Stele - obsoletes, requires 3 more culture in city to gain anything
Assembly Plant - Late UB, you'll build the Factory anyway, but not many wonders this late
Fetoria - Late UB, poor effects
Forum - maybe 1 more GP? you'll build market anyway. this gains very little
Research institute - Way too late UB, only relavent to one victory condition

[bhavv]

Originally Posted by vranasm

well I remember me playing Sury SG game where we built baray in our core everywhere.

the problem with cothon is that is based on Compass and harbors are not built that often. It's more map dependant and thus it is certainly not fantastic since its not universal enough. On some maps it's useless, on others high potential.

You can still settle coastal cities on a Pangea and tech to Compass first and spam Cothons. And its easy even selecting Archipelago for your map settings when picking Carthage anyway.

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

There's nothing wrong with the zig. It's good, it just isn't a sac altar. And you're wrong about sumeria:

1. Courthouses are often not a top priority in the early game and tend to be a fairly heft sink to save 3-4 (or are you getting 10+ cities BCs?)
2. Priesthood is before CoL, yes. However, bureaucracy is a HUGE draw for a lot of maps and CoL is the short path there which means it often doesn't get delayed too long. For the timing of zigs to be a big deal, you'd have to want courthouses over other alternative improvements during that time window. Are you going to get courthouses before granaries? Libraries? Units? If not, there's a good chance you have code on a lot of maps already.

I can do 8-12 cities in the BCs with Ziggurats on Immortal depending on resources, dont need Granaries right away, Library > Whipped Ziggurat in every city, then a Granary. Its definitely top tier when abused. Cathy of Sumeria abuses it the most. For that purpose, its top tier if you have room to expand.

Its not a hefty time sink at all, im sure you know what Slavery is right? People whip their Courthouses in normal games, same with Zigs. You just dont sit there spending hundreds of years building them without the whip, Granaries and Courthouses need to be whip whip whipped everywhere.

Originally Posted by enKage

I am playing now Carthage game on Fractal map (actually it gave me sth like continents map) and can see the power of Cothon. I went straight to compass and astro (haha! I had explorers defending my cities! I had no archers yet). GLH + Cothons before libraries and courthouses = I have electricity and some very advance techs, when the best rival civs have longbows and are begging me for civil service or optics (monarch difficulty). I was 1 turn from rocketry in ca. 1550 AD - the best ever for me, as I am not a perfect player

Explorers for defense omg .... something I've actually never tried (I normally cheese it with Barbs off).

[Pengu]

Best
Ikhanda
Rathaus
Ziggurat(not the building but the prereq)
Terrace


Good:
Mint
Dike
Hammam
Madrassa
Sac Altar

Ok:
Obelisk
Pavilion
Trading Post
Baray
Cothon
Apothecary


Garbage
Dun
Mall
Shale Plant
Citadel
Stele
Assembly Plant
Fetoria
Forum

For me Sac Altar comes way too late. You get it when caste system becomes available?
Sac Altar should had been much earlier for my taste as slavery is something for the early game for the most part.