Why are you here?

Kael · Feb 15, 2006, 08:15 AM

Welcome to the FfH forum. This is the home of the Fall from Heaven 2 beta. Feel free to hang out, post any ideas, recommendations or comments about the mod.

The design team and I spend a lot of time here, hours each week. You could argue that the time we spend reading and posting might be better spent actually working on the mod. What can't be argued is that FfH has been shaped dramatically by the community. This is, and always has been, run as an internet project where everyones ideas are considered and discussed. Im sure many wish we were more open, responded to more posts or included more ideas, but we try our best.

There is an old story about Sir Francis Galton (father of modern eugenics and cousin of charles darwin). Galton was an elitist in that he thought that the public was basically incapable of making intelligent decisions. But he was at a fair filled with common folk and noticed a game going on to guess the weight of an ox. A few of the people had some knowledge about how much an ox of that size would wiegh, but most had no idea. And the guesses varied widely. At the end of the day Galton gathered the just less than 800 guesses that were made during the day and averaged them out. Altogether they were closer to the true weight of the ox than any individual guess, whats more the average answer was only 1lb off of the true weight of the ox.

This experiement is carried out in college classrooms all over with jars of jelly beans, and the results are the same. The public is amazing good at making informed specific decisions. Better than any individual member, even the knowledgable ones. That logic has served us well on the FfH team and even though we may not react to individual recommendations ofr change, we do listen closely to the trends and try to make changes to drive close and closer to that optimal gameplay that we are all trying to hit.

Lastly, I would like to thank the design team for their amazing work. So many of FfH's best features weren't imagined, designed or implemented by me. A lot of work has come from the entire team, who have proven to be the best in their respective areas.

- Kael

Kael · May 18, 2006, 04:24 PM

02/15/2006 - Letter to the Design Team

     Welcome to the Fall from Heaven 2 design team. The purpose of this forum is to share and discuss the next version of the Mod. You will find threads on each of the major feature areas, many ideas will branch into multiple features but try to keep posts as specific to the thread as possible.

     The plan is that the first post of each thread is the targeted design, items in that post that are prceeded by a "+" have already been implemented. The 2nd post of each thread is reserved for ideas that are under consideration. I will try to pull ideas from the threads up into that post to help keep things organized, and so we don't lose ideas.

Design Guidelines:

1.     Fall from Heaven is a Dark Fantasy mod. Meaning even the good guys aren't always that good. Blood and gothic imagery should be prevalent. Traditional "princess fairy" aspects of the fantasy world will not be included, the world is to violent for them to survive.

2.     Erebus is a world at war, not over race or civilization, but over ideologies. That war is represented in many ways, but the core differences between Good (sacrifice of the one for the many) and Evil (sacrifice of the many for the one) and between Law (order at the expense of freedom) and Chaos (freedom at the expense of order) are central themes.

3.     There is no need to be complete, patterns are generally uncreative and often detract from the strategic decisions. It is much easier to balance units/civilizations/relgions etc by making them have similiar abilities but we rob the world of its flavor by doing that. Each object in the game needs its own flavor, and even if it means we can only make a quarter of the objects we would be able to if we copied our ideas, I think its worth it. There is a balance here, obviously not everything can be unique, but we shouldn't strive to copy a mechanic or idea just because it would be easy to do so.

4.     We are looking for the ideas that will make people want to play the mod. The kinds of things they will miss when they go back to the normal game. There are tons of stuff we could do, with the group we have here getting ideas isn't a problem. The challenge is deciding which ones will excite players and then doing those ideas really well.

5.     More is worse in a strategy game. Every new object has a cost, not just in what it takes to create, test and manage, but the player has to keep track of it as well. In general we should only add items because they offer a significant improvement to some aspect of the game, and not just to have, more units, more resources, etc.

6.     Please don't be dissapointed if your ideas aren't included. Try not to be confused when I disagree with an idea and then decide to include it a few weeks later, sometimes I just have to chew on an idea for a while before I come to see its value. And sometimes I don't think an idea is right for the mod, even if it is a brillant idea. I didn't think the mod needed new civs in phase 1 until Haarbal showed them to me and I was impressed by how much better they made it. I didn't think religious specific cities would be worth the work until Chalid showed it to me and I was absolutly amazed by it. I can't promise I will accept everything, but I will consider everything. I know you guys put a lot of work into providing feedback and ideas, don't ever think that that work isn't appreciated.

05/18/2006- Letter to the Public

     Welcome to the Fall from Heaven 2 forum! Please allow me to take your coat and help yourself to some of the high class hours-devours, I highly recommend the beanie weenies.

     Mingle and make yourself at home. Be sure to play the mod and let us know what you think. We are always open to new ideas and a lot of what ended up in FfH1 and contributed to FfH2 came from suggestions recommended by the community.

- Kael

ps. please stay out of the pool, Chalid put his pet Kraken in there. The Kraken has a fondness for girly drinks and early 80's sitcoms. So please don't leave any drink with an tiny umbrella or Gary Coleman out on the patio unsupervised.

Thunderfall · May 19, 2006, 07:45 AM

The forum should be public now.

Civmansam · May 19, 2006, 07:54 AM

First Non member Post Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Sorry I just got overexcited

Kael · May 19, 2006, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Civmansam

First Non member Post Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Sorry I just got overexcited

Eeeeeee!!!! They are here. Everyone look busy!

woodelf · May 19, 2006, 08:08 AM

Busy? I plan on hiding under my desk!

Reno · May 19, 2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderfall

The forum should be public now.

And here I was thinking to myself; "How on earth can I see this forum? I'm not even a developement team member...". That cleared it up.

Kael · May 19, 2006, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodelf

Busy? I plan on hiding under my desk!

Expecting a riot when they find out our finely tuned development process is actually just us sitting around making fun of each other?

Berrie · May 19, 2006, 08:37 AM

Just want to give you guys the tumbs up

Keep up the good work and make this mod even more 'fantastic' then the first one!

Chammadai · May 19, 2006, 08:48 AM

No use in having the forum when the beta isn't out yet.
Yet here I am, posting. Ha!
<Pokes Woodelf> <Pokes Kael> Ooh, you're real! And I always thought you were just a complicated AI let loose on the net.
Keep up the good work, guys

Cheers

Kael · May 19, 2006, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chammadai

No use in having the forum when the beta isn't out yet.
Yet here I am, posting. Ha!
<Pokes Woodelf> <Pokes Kael> Ooh, you're real! And I always thought you were just a complicated AI let loose on the net.
Keep up the good work, guys

Cheers

Actually Im hoping it gives folks a little chance to read about the mod before they start playing (kinda like checking out the manual on the drive home from the gaming store). But yeah, I don't expect much feedback yet.

woodelf · May 19, 2006, 08:59 AM

I always want my wife to drive home after picking up a game so I can do just that.

In this case you can print out these threads at work (or school) and read them on the commute home.

wilboman · May 19, 2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

In this case you can print out these threads at work (or school) and read them on the commute home.

Provided you live in Mexico City and work in Vancouver...

puck11b · May 19, 2006, 09:09 AM

I suspect that this is going to turn into the introduction thread, so I'd better jump on in.
Hi, I'm here to help iron out some of the bugs in what promises to be a very interesting mod... alright, I admit it. I just want to play it. *grin*
~p

BCLG100 · May 19, 2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reno

And here I was thinking to myself; "How on earth can I see this forum? I'm not even a developement team member...". That cleared it up.

was wondering the exact same thing, had i become part of the elite team

BeefontheBone · May 19, 2006, 02:05 PM

Need to rustle up enough time to actually play this thing, but keep up the good work guys!

You might find you want to keed the development threads and stuff non-public though; apart from anything else it gets messy this way

EDIT: Of course, you could have already thought of that and I wouldn't know. Hmmm.

My head hurts.

Ansar · May 20, 2006, 10:50 AM

What is the Fall from Heaven mod?

Will it be like the MTDG?

Also, will it be civ3 or civ4?

I was too confused when I saw this new forum...

Abaddon · May 20, 2006, 10:54 AM

its cIV, i know that much..

otherwise, WOTCHA guys.. looking good- i'll get my oar in soon

Kael · May 20, 2006, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ansar_the_King

What is the Fall from Heaven mod?

Will it be like the MTDG?

Also, will it be civ3 or civ4?

I was too confused when I saw this new forum...

Its a Fantasy mod for Civ 4. More details here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171398

YNCS · May 21, 2006, 07:36 AM

A mod that has it's own section. Not even Civ3 DyP/RaR or Warhammer had that. Kael, you are truly honored.

Feb 15, 2006, 08:15 AM	#1
Kael Deity Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 17,392	Why are you here? Welcome to the FfH forum. This is the home of the Fall from Heaven 2 beta. Feel free to hang out, post any ideas, recommendations or comments about the mod. The design team and I spend a lot of time here, hours each week. You could argue that the time we spend reading and posting might be better spent actually working on the mod. What can't be argued is that FfH has been shaped dramatically by the community. This is, and always has been, run as an internet project where everyones ideas are considered and discussed. Im sure many wish we were more open, responded to more posts or included more ideas, but we try our best. There is an old story about Sir Francis Galton (father of modern eugenics and cousin of charles darwin). Galton was an elitist in that he thought that the public was basically incapable of making intelligent decisions. But he was at a fair filled with common folk and noticed a game going on to guess the weight of an ox. A few of the people had some knowledge about how much an ox of that size would wiegh, but most had no idea. And the guesses varied widely. At the end of the day Galton gathered the just less than 800 guesses that were made during the day and averaged them out. Altogether they were closer to the true weight of the ox than any individual guess, whats more the average answer was only 1lb off of the true weight of the ox. This experiement is carried out in college classrooms all over with jars of jelly beans, and the results are the same. The public is amazing good at making informed specific decisions. Better than any individual member, even the knowledgable ones. That logic has served us well on the FfH team and even though we may not react to individual recommendations ofr change, we do listen closely to the trends and try to make changes to drive close and closer to that optimal gameplay that we are all trying to hit. Lastly, I would like to thank the design team for their amazing work. So many of FfH's best features weren't imagined, designed or implemented by me. A lot of work has come from the entire team, who have proven to be the best in their respective areas. - Kael __________________ Civ4: Fall from Heaven II (forum) (webpage), FfH: Age of Ice Civ5: Queen of the Iceni, Legions, Modders Guide to Civilization V Current Project: Fallen Enchantress Last edited by Kael; Jun 01, 2008 at 09:18 PM.

May 18, 2006, 04:24 PM	#2
Kael Deity Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 17,392	02/15/2006 - Letter to the Design Team Welcome to the Fall from Heaven 2 design team. The purpose of this forum is to share and discuss the next version of the Mod. You will find threads on each of the major feature areas, many ideas will branch into multiple features but try to keep posts as specific to the thread as possible. The plan is that the first post of each thread is the targeted design, items in that post that are prceeded by a "+" have already been implemented. The 2nd post of each thread is reserved for ideas that are under consideration. I will try to pull ideas from the threads up into that post to help keep things organized, and so we don't lose ideas. Design Guidelines: 1. Fall from Heaven is a Dark Fantasy mod. Meaning even the good guys aren't always that good. Blood and gothic imagery should be prevalent. Traditional "princess fairy" aspects of the fantasy world will not be included, the world is to violent for them to survive. 2. Erebus is a world at war, not over race or civilization, but over ideologies. That war is represented in many ways, but the core differences between Good (sacrifice of the one for the many) and Evil (sacrifice of the many for the one) and between Law (order at the expense of freedom) and Chaos (freedom at the expense of order) are central themes. 3. There is no need to be complete, patterns are generally uncreative and often detract from the strategic decisions. It is much easier to balance units/civilizations/relgions etc by making them have similiar abilities but we rob the world of its flavor by doing that. Each object in the game needs its own flavor, and even if it means we can only make a quarter of the objects we would be able to if we copied our ideas, I think its worth it. There is a balance here, obviously not everything can be unique, but we shouldn't strive to copy a mechanic or idea just because it would be easy to do so. 4. We are looking for the ideas that will make people want to play the mod. The kinds of things they will miss when they go back to the normal game. There are tons of stuff we could do, with the group we have here getting ideas isn't a problem. The challenge is deciding which ones will excite players and then doing those ideas really well. 5. More is worse in a strategy game. Every new object has a cost, not just in what it takes to create, test and manage, but the player has to keep track of it as well. In general we should only add items because they offer a significant improvement to some aspect of the game, and not just to have, more units, more resources, etc. 6. Please don't be dissapointed if your ideas aren't included. Try not to be confused when I disagree with an idea and then decide to include it a few weeks later, sometimes I just have to chew on an idea for a while before I come to see its value. And sometimes I don't think an idea is right for the mod, even if it is a brillant idea. I didn't think the mod needed new civs in phase 1 until Haarbal showed them to me and I was impressed by how much better they made it. I didn't think religious specific cities would be worth the work until Chalid showed it to me and I was absolutly amazed by it. I can't promise I will accept everything, but I will consider everything. I know you guys put a lot of work into providing feedback and ideas, don't ever think that that work isn't appreciated. 05/18/2006- Letter to the Public Welcome to the Fall from Heaven 2 forum! Please allow me to take your coat and help yourself to some of the high class hours-devours, I highly recommend the beanie weenies. Mingle and make yourself at home. Be sure to play the mod and let us know what you think. We are always open to new ideas and a lot of what ended up in FfH1 and contributed to FfH2 came from suggestions recommended by the community. - Kael ps. please stay out of the pool, Chalid put his pet Kraken in there. The Kraken has a fondness for girly drinks and early 80's sitcoms. So please don't leave any drink with an tiny umbrella or Gary Coleman out on the patio unsupervised. __________________ Civ4: Fall from Heaven II (forum) (webpage), FfH: Age of Ice Civ5: Queen of the Iceni, Legions, Modders Guide to Civilization V Current Project: Fallen Enchantress Last edited by Kael; Jul 21, 2006 at 03:06 PM.

May 19, 2006, 07:45 AM	#3
Thunderfall Administrator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NY, USA Posts: 11,730 Images: 1545	The forum should be public now. __________________ Thunderfall Weight: 1.0 Value: 161 Cast When used Shock Damage 1 to 25 points on Touch

May 19, 2006, 08:37 AM	#9
Berrie Proud father Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,118	Just want to give you guys the tumbs up Keep up the good work and make this mod even more 'fantastic' then the first one! __________________ Thanks for the avatar Raen! That what you say, is important. That what you do, is more important. But the most important of all, is that what you achieve. Finished SG's : RB-31: Playing God

May 19, 2006, 02:05 PM	#16
BeefontheBone Windbag of the sea Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,018	Need to rustle up enough time to actually play this thing, but keep up the good work guys! You might find you want to keed the development threads and stuff non-public though; apart from anything else it gets messy this way EDIT: Of course, you could have already thought of that and I wouldn't know. Hmmm. My head hurts. __________________ Blue Marble 3.0 - about a gazillion times sexier than regular Civ 4. QES: "For a period of time, the rest of the world clamoured to get Levi's genes." Braindead's Mordor site - Dungeon crawling having nothing to do with LotR, plus a freeware remake in progress featuring descriptive text and crazy ideas by yours truly.

May 19, 2006, 07:54 AM	#4
Civmansam King Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 909	First Non member Post Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Sorry I just got overexcited

May 19, 2006, 08:08 AM	#6
woodelf Bard Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gallery Posts: 15,001	Busy? I plan on hiding under my desk!

May 19, 2006, 08:48 AM	#10
Chammadai The absent one Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Gdansk Posts: 71	No use in having the forum when the beta isn't out yet. Yet here I am, posting. Ha! <Pokes Woodelf> <Pokes Kael> Ooh, you're real! And I always thought you were just a complicated AI let loose on the net. Keep up the good work, guys Cheers

May 19, 2006, 08:59 AM	#12
woodelf Bard Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gallery Posts: 15,001	I always want my wife to drive home after picking up a game so I can do just that. In this case you can print out these threads at work (or school) and read them on the commute home.

May 19, 2006, 09:09 AM	#14
puck11b Warlord Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 138	I suspect that this is going to turn into the introduction thread, so I'd better jump on in. Hi, I'm here to help iron out some of the bugs in what promises to be a very interesting mod... alright, I admit it. I just want to play it. grin ~p

May 20, 2006, 10:50 AM	#17
Ansar Détente avec l'été Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ithaca, NY (soon) Posts: 10,552	What is the Fall from Heaven mod? Will it be like the MTDG? Also, will it be civ3 or civ4? I was too confused when I saw this new forum... __________________ Big Red (Physics) '14

May 20, 2006, 10:54 AM	#18
Abaddon Deity Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NES/FG/SF Activity:Arguing the toss Posts: 30,712 Images: 69	its cIV, i know that much.. otherwise, WOTCHA guys.. looking good- i'll get my oar in soon

May 21, 2006, 07:36 AM	#20
YNCS Ex-bubblehead Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: -4 GMT Posts: 3,098	A mod that has it's own section. Not even Civ3 DyP/RaR or Warhammer had that. Kael, you are truly honored.

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