[BTS] SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Originally Posted by mabraham

I suggest STW continue according to the plan, and play up to and including the Hammu-Shaka teleport, re-open Hammu borders, and subsequent Hammsville gift T153, unless one of the other stopping criteria comes up.

This should be a good springboard for the final planning. Our first Bula spy will be in position, and we'll have an idea how many EPs we need on Shaka from him and our spies in Hammsville. Hatse may have DOWed us by then. This will be a good time to confirm we want holy war against Shaka T154.

OK, I can play through the beginning of t153 plus move our SoD in position for the Close/Open Hummuragawa Borders Teleport and move our SoD to 2-N of Numidian plus perform the Hammsville trade for Wealth, if possible, with Shakagawa.

I will of course incorporate the team consensus on what we should do turns 151-152 as well.

I am also open to playing t153 completely and ending my turn set at the beginning of t154 as Kaitzilla just suggested.

Sorry about the Walls/Castle confusion in Bulawayo. I confirmed each turn the defenders there, had not been looking closely at the XX Defence number; I had only noticed the Walls turn 150, but they were probably there t149 or earlier. I did't look at t151 more than a few seconds, before uploading. I knew the team's eyes would be keener than my single pair of eyes in any case.

Sun Tzu Wu

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I plan to trade Engineering to Mansagawa for his spare Wealth and XX Wpt in t151.

I plan to trade Theology to Huayanagawa for his spare Wealth and XX Wpt in t151.

That should work, right? There has to be a way to get that high Wpt they both have. I suppose begging for Wpt might also be possible?

Sorry, I don't have access to BtS right now to test these ideas.

Sun Tzu Wu

[shulec]

Unfortunately, tech cannot be traded for WPT, only resources can. We will also not be able to beg since we are not at pleased. Therefore, they would be demands.

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Perhaps I should also try a beg of either Mansagawa or Huayanagawa to get a Peace Treaty that applies to both? That would prevent them from submitting a DoW to us for 10t.

If only they were pleased with us, that would prevent any DoW from them on us for 10t.

If our power is high enough (say in t151), we could demand a small tribute to secure a Peace Treaty at the cost of -1 Diplomacy.

Sun Tzu Wu

[Sun Tzu Wu]

What does the the power ratio need to be to avoid outright rejection of demands for tribute?

If we have a sufficient power ratio, I don't see how a demand for a 1 Wpt tribute could fail to provide a Peace Treaty for us long enough (t151-t161) secure a Hindu city for each.

Sun Tzu Wu

[bcool]

As a team in war prep mode I highly doubt our military might will compare favorably to their combined military might.

I highly doubt a demand from the team will work. I'd rather not risk the -1 diplo with them for making an arrogant demand.

I would like to see a few scouts built T152 and sent to the Hammuragawa and Shaka border. Hopefully we can use these scouts to lure Shaka's stack away from ours. But they need to be in position or able to reach a tile next to his stack to be useful.

[WastinTime]

Our workers move fast, so that's an option over scouts, but I realize they are expensive. We could even sacrifice some of our current workers

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agree that we should not risk making a demand of the AI Team, simply because we don't have enough Espionage on them to know what their power is so we could compare it ours.

Thus, knowing the "safe" power ratio does us no good, because we can't even measure the power ratio in the game. Also, Team aspect darken things a bit more, since the AI Team's combined power times a normalized factor probably determine their power.

It's still an "academic" question cries for an answer, though I see now that it has no practical value that can be applied to help us win the game (earlier or with less risk).

Sorry, enough time wasted on this topic.

Sun Tzu Wu

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Sorry, we can't build Scouts, because we know Compass. So we can build 40H Explorers or as WastinTime suggested 60H Fast Workers.

Unfortunately, any units built now will never make it to Shakagawa's border in time for the t154 DoW (3 turns from the current save).

Sun Tzu Wu

[bcool]

If DeerGold Finished an explorer T152, an explorer could move 18 tiles from DeerGold (6 on T152, 6 on T153, 6 on T154), isn't that enough to reach the border?

hmm, seems like it isn't. If DeerGold finished a faster worker (whipped a very expensive fast worker this turn perhaps?) It could make it.

I would send a fast worker this turn then. Some fast worker must be able to reach the border if they have movement left this turn right?

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Sorry, I forgot to consider the effects of the double teleport on units not with our SoD on one or both teleports.

I was working out plan to use our two Fast Workers in the north and a Crossbow that is lagging one plot behind our SoD.

I will also consider whipping an Explorer or Fast Worker in Deergold City as you suggested.

Thanks WastinTime for your Fast Worker suggestion!

Sun Tzu Wu

[Kaitzilla]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

From Babylon:
1) On t152, SoD moves to 1-W of Akkad
2) On t153, SoD moves to 1-NW of Akkad with .7 movement remaining
3) Still t153, we close (and open) Borders with Hammuragawa, teleporting SoD to 1-W of Nobamba
4) Still t153, with .7 movement left, SoD moves to 2-N of Nabamba
5) On t154, SoD moves to 1-SW of Shakagawa's Copper with .7 movement remaining
6) Still t154, perform DoW of Shakagawa, teleporting SoD to 2-S+1-W of Numidian
7) Still t154, with Roads on 2-S+1-W and 1-S+2-W of Numidian, move 2-W (without Roads it takes two turns) onto Grassland
8) On t155, SoD moves onto PH 1-S+2-E of Bulawayo
9) On t156, SoD moves onto GHF 1-E of Bulawayo
10) On t157, Spy in Bulawayo performs "Support City Revolt" mission (2 attempts).
11) Still t157, SoD bombards?/barrages/captures Bulawayo.

Sun Tzu Wu

I built a test game to simulate the teleport across the water to Shaka's lands for even more confirmation. Looks good

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by bcool

Liz might still research Astronomy after Music, she does tech very quickly. There might still be a chance for SBB plan. Even if we don't get Astronomy teleporting a galley might still do the trick if the Northern AI didn't settle a coastal city for some reason and therefore never made contact with Genghis and Cyrus.

There's two pockets of ice north of Karakorum. A galley won't get through - and if one could then a workboat from Cyrus or Genghis is likely to have made contact already, and that hasn't happened. So I think a galley is not useful until it becomes a galleon. I suspect the only way to make efficient use of a galleon while the wars are going on is to shepherd a missionary onto Patton near Akhetaten and run him north.

[mabraham]

I'm happy for STW to play up to T153 and use his judgement about playing on to T154. Things will get very simple once we're engaged in our limited-objective warring.

[Kaitzilla]

Originally Posted by mabraham

There's two pockets of ice north of Karakorum. A galley won't get through - and if one could then a workboat from Cyrus or Genghis is likely to have made contact already, and that hasn't happened. So I think a galley is not useful until it becomes a galleon. I suspect the only way to make efficient use of a galleon while the wars are going on is to shepherd a missionary onto Patton near Akhetaten and run him north.

Ya, you can see the offensive new ice here.

Spoiler:

[bcool]

Okay thanks for pointing out the new ice. Maybe Liz will do us another favor for a T176 win (assuming Shaka doesn't kill SBB)

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In addition to using the two Fast Workers in the north as bait, there is a Crossbowman lagging 1 pot behind our SoD which could be used to divert Shakagawa's south of Bulawayo.

I don't see a way to build either a Fast Worker or Explorer that can make it to the first Teleport site, so it lands in Shakagawa's land with the SoD or much less makes it there via land (no teleport).

That leaves only moving a unit to the edge of Hammuragawa's Culture t152 and moving it after the first Teleport near and finally into Shakagawa's land. An Explorer can be to the edge of Shakagawa's land in 3t (t155); A Fast Worker can be to the edge of Shakagawa's land in 2t (t154). Both options leave the unit protected by Closed Borders between Hammuragawa and Shakagawa, thus probably useless to lure it in time of the DoW. By t155, the Fast Worker can penetrate into Shakagawa's Culture, but its not clear the SoD will come back to attack the Fast Worker.

That leaves the option of building an Explorer in Deergold organically in 1t (maximum hammer plots) or 3P whipping a Fast Worker in 1t. The Explorer can get there in 3t rather than 2t, but this way be useful, it the two northern Workers can delay Shakagawa's SoD for the Explorer to get there.

We also have 3 Fast Workers that can get to the edge of Hammuragawa's Culture by the end of t152 and after the first teleport dash to the northern edge of Hammuragawa's Culture. Five Fast Workers are plenty, so no point in 3P whipping a Fast Worker in 1t.

Plan:

Deergold organically builds Explorer in 1t this turn (t151); it moves to edge of Hammuragawa's Culture (152), ...

Use two northern Fast Worker to lure Shakagawa's SoD initially; use the Explorer and southern Fast Workers to lure Shakagawa's SoD further, all while trying to delay Shakagawa's SoD just enough for our SoD to complete its objective with no interference from Shakagawa's SoD.

Use up to 3 southern Fast Workers in the matter described above.

Use up to Explorer in the matter described above (arriving a turn later).

Test game suggestion:

I suggest that Kaitzilla and other members fill out the tactics of these luring maneuvers ASAP.

I hope the post makes sense; I really think it could work, but there''s not much time for game testing it; make the best of the test game time we have = a day or two?

Sun Tzu Wu

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Updated PPP, changing mainly city builds, but many other things as well, all in this DarkRed font; Note that the Akhetaten can not start until t156, since Open Borders were renewed t146; thus, More Espionage will remain focused on Elizagawa for Technologies and Shakagawa for Bulawayo capture; Espionage can be switch next turn set on Hastegawa for Akhetaten capture.

t151 - t153 PPP: Draft #7

Note that with new SoD double teleport plan we have 1t extra to get to Babylon at the end of t151 rather than t150; this allows building 3-4 more units, by stretching Engineering completion to 4t at Research 40% on average from t143. We will now easily complete Engineering in t146 (1t left). Due to t145 switch to Theocracy, further Civics changes must be delayed until t150.

Cities (F1):

Delhi (no Engineer):

t151-t153 Wealth

Deergold City:

t151: builds Explorer organically in 1t
t152-t153 Wealth

SheepTown:

t151: whip Trebuchet
t152-t153 start Explorer

CowTown:

t151: whip Trebuchet
t152-t153 Wealth

PigsGem:

t151-t153: builds Wealth

Crabsville:

t151: completes Longbowman MP switch to extra hammers in 1t
t152-t153: builds Wealth

Island:

t151-t153: builds Wealth

Island II:

t151-t153: builds Wealth

Hamsville:

t151-t153: builds Wealth

FishTown:

t151-t153 wealth

Shaka Bacon Bit:

t151-t153: continues Galley (ETA 6t; getting Worker help)

LizTown:

t151-t153: builds Wealth

Financial (F2) - Currently:

Unit Cost: 28
Unit Supply: 9
City Maintenance: 63
Civic Upkeep: 45
Inflation: 23
Total Expenses: 168

We will be adding 5+ units in 7t, so Unit Cost will increase by 10+ to ~48. Our SoD will leave our culture by about t148-150 and its 25 units will cost us 10-11 more Unit Supply, increasing from 9 to 21-22. We plan to regrow citizens whipped in t144-t146, so City Maintenance and Civic Upkeep should stay about the same, ignoring Civics changes.

Civics (F3):

t150: NO Switch to Caste System (low Commerce citizens -> Merchants)

Foreign (F4):

All Civs except Mansagawa, Huayanagawa, Cyrusgawa, Shakagawa and Genghigawa are involved in a Holy War against Elizagawa.

Genghigawa is at war with Tokugawa.

Resource Trades: Will trade extra resources for best Wpt. Will not cancel trades until we get +2 sharing resources bonus, keep one trade to prevent Diplomacy decay.

None of the x-gawas Genghisgawa have adopted Mercantilism

None of the x-gawas Several x-gawa have Engineering yet. Mansagawa and Huayanagawa do not yet have Theology. Hammuragawa will trade Aesthetics and Horseback Riding.

Give Guilds and Banking to Hammuragawa when he completes Feudalism; Get Aesthetics and Horseback Riding and Wealth in trade

t151: trade Engineering to Mansagawa for his spare Wealth.

t151: trade Theology to Huayanagawa for his spare Wealth.

t151: trade Iron to Tokugawa for 2 Wpt, fixing decay of resource tarding Diplomatic bonus.

Military (F5):

Military units builts in cities move to their staging area as mentioned in the build or implied by place of build: West -> GhostTown staging area, one unit -> Hammsville staging area; East -> Akhatetan.

Akhatetan:

Axemen in Hastegawa's Culture will retreat to Tokugawa's Culture 3 plots from Hill at 1-NW of Akhatetan.

Hindu Missionary shall move with 2 Macemen escort to 2-W of Akhatetan. It shall move 1-E to view status of Akhatetan and move back 1-W each turn until a state of War between Gandhi and Hastegawa. Explorer will relieve Missionary of this duty when it arrives. Patton will do this.

When Trebuchets to be whipped turn 151 in CowTown and SheepTown can reach 1-NW of Akhatetan and a state of War exists with Hatsegawa, the whole stack will move onto the Hill at 1-NW of Akhatetan and will capture it the next turn.

Bulawayo:

Axeman in Shakagawa scouts Bulawayo; joins our SoD after DoW teleport.

All military units in our main cultural area (including those built in 4t) will immediately move to Babylon with ETA of end of t151.

From Babylon:
1) On t152, SoD moves to 1-W of Akkad
2) On t153, SoD moves to 1-NW of Akkad with .7 movement remaining
3) Still t153, we close (and open) Borders with Hammuragawa, teleporting SoD to 1-W of Nobamba
4) Still t153, with .7 movement left, SoD moves to 2-N of Nabamba
5) On t154, SoD moves to 1-SW of Shakagawa's Copper with .7 movement remaining
6) Still t154, perform DoW of Shakagawa, teleporting SoD to 2-S+1-W of Numidian
7) Still t154, with Roads on 2-S+1-W and 1-S+2-W of Numidian, move 2-W (without Roads it takes two turns) onto Grassland
8) On t155, SoD moves onto PH 1-S+2-E of Bulawayo
9) On t156, SoD moves onto GHF 1-E of Bulawayo
10) On t157, Spy in Bulawayo performs "Support City Revolt" mission (2 attempts).
11) Still t157, SoD bombards?/barrages/captures Bulawayo.

GhostTown:

t152: Stack to capture GhostTown will wait on Road near Hammuragawa's Border on t152.
t153: After t153 close/open of Borders to Hammuragawa, moves adjacent to GhostTown in Hammuragawa's Culture on t153, ready to capture GhostTown t154: After the DoW capture GhostTown

Hammsville:

t152: Sole military unit to capture Hammsvile will move to 3 plots on strong Cultural plot on Road to Hammsville.
t153: (Hammsville will be given to Shakagawa) Unit waits.
t154: (Shakagawa Culture = lack there of colaspes near strong source of Ganhi's Culture) Unit moves into Hammsville via Road captuing it.

Caravels:

George Patton moves in/out of Hatsegama's Culture to see what's in Akhatetan.

Traveler moves to near Galley chain area to help transport Missionaries, maybe?

2 Galleys are done with Galley chain; what next? Disband?

Settlers:

None left

Workers:

Fritz: completes current Forest chop and heads toward Shakagawa as SoD teaser.

Karl: moves near Shakagawa's SoD; lures it away from Bulawayo and our SoD.

Eiffel: Moves to edge of Hammuragawa's Culture by t152, pending Team approval for Shakagawa SoD luring plan or ...
Moves home to build farms, chop forests, etc.

Hoover: Moves to edge of Hammuragawa's Culture by t152, pending Team approval for Shakagawa SoD luring plan or ...
Builds Road 1-N of FishTown, builds Grassland Hill Mine 1-NW of FishTown; then moves and builds improvements as needed by growing cities.

Faraday: Moves to edge of Hammuragawa's Culture by t152, pending Team approval for Shakagawa SoD luring plan or ...
Builds Banana Planatation, 2 Grassland Hill Mines near Crabsville.

Island Worker: builds Sheep Pasture, GH Mine 1-N of Sheep, then other Mines and Farms.

Hindu Missionaries:

Missionary 9 will stay with Ahkehaten stack until we capture it from Hatsegawa (Hatsegawa is in theocracy so we can't spread it to her earlier)

10 follows and attaches to SoD.

New 11 (Deergold City) follows and attaches to SoD. need to make sure it makes it to Babylon in time since must be delayed for Patton Missionary spreading to future city of CenterPort

Spies:

1 explores GenghisGawa's unrevealed Culture.

5 moves to LizTown and waits. (Both Spies waiting here move to nearest Hatsegawa city with Hinduism)

4 waits in Hammsville until needed to convert Shakagawa to Hinduism just before the DoW (priority 1). (A new Spy waiting here, stays)

7 moves to Bulawayo as primary Spy for Support City Revolt mission t164 or earlier (Spy arrives by t152).

8 moves to Bulawayo as secondary Spy for Support City Revolt mission t164 or earlier (Spy arrives by t153).

Technolgy (F6):

Next (t151-t153): Paper at Research 00% (Espionage maximum possible)

Religion (F7):

Shaka Bacon bit and Island, and Island II are only cities lacking Hinduism.

Victory Conditions (F8):

Recent TAP Resident Election t146 results - Requires 49/123 - Results 114-0-9:

For Gandhi:
Gandhi: 94
Hatsegawa: 9
Tokugawa: 7
Hammuragawa: 4

Abstained:
Cyrusgawa: 6
Shakagawa: 1
Genghisgawa: 2

Mansagawa: none
Huayanagawa: none
Elizagawa: none

Ratio is already 94/123 = we exceed 75% by a few percent. After spreading Hinduism to Mansagawa, Huayanagawa, and Elizagawa we should be well under 75%, not including the planned whips.

Resolutions:

t145: The Apostolic Palace Resident Election (Results above).

t155: Declare war on the infidels (Shakagawa).

t165: RL DV.

Corporation (Shift-F7): Coporation not completed yet by any Civ.

Espionage (CRTL-E):

t151-t153: 100% Commerce -> Espionage (100% Wealth on turns when not possible); All Espionage -> Elizagawa until see see her Research goal, then switch to Shakagawa until we have enough for "Switch to Hinduism" and Bulwayo "Support City Revolt" (expensive < 800E base) missions; switch back to Elizagawa for stealing Technologies like Astronomy.

When 2 Spies arrive in Bulawayo in t150-t152, check the actual amount of Espionage needed to complete "Support City Revolt" mission and estimate for 5 turns of Spy fortification.

bcool computed "Hindu conversion" mission in Hammsville to be 87E, but we can't verify that in the real game until the city is given to Shakagawa in t154 right before the DoW.

Turn Checklist:

check if Toku and Hatsegawa have OB each turn
check if Shaka and Hammuragawa have OB each turn
check if anyone has teched feudalism (Give Hammuragawa or Genghis Guilds and Banking when possible)
doublecheck city builds against PPP
Team AI adopts mercantilism (but that would be an announcement)
Check to see if Cyrusgawa goes into WHEOOHRN (or any other AI who isn't involved in a war or already in WHEOOHRN--and remember the little red fist icon isn't working properly)

Stopping Criteria:
Team DOWs us.
Hammu goes to peace with Liz.
Shaka DOWs someone
Shaka closes OB with us
Someone DOWs us

I plan to start play immediately in ~30 min., since we can't afford much more delay. The one to three of the southern Fast Workers (-> Shakagawa's SoD luring) can be diverted back to other work, if the team decides not to use that option fully or at all.

Sun Tzu Wu

[Sun Tzu Wu]

As opposed to what the PPP Drift #7 stated, I will not be playing immediately. I'll start in about 30 min. and will not move the southern three Fast Workers without checking back for feedback from the team.

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

[mabraham]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu Wu

As opposed to what the PPP Drift #7 stated, I will not be playing immediately. I'll start in about 30 min. and will not move the southern three Fast Workers without checking back for feedback from the team.

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

There's been suggestions for a new spy for possible late espionage on Hatse, or more units for the Akhe stack. I think I prefer units. I think this means that wealth builds in Delhi, CT and ST are inappropriate.

Keep the galleys for possible late-game Hindu spam to our Island or Hammu's cities.

Happy using workers to try to bait. Anything that might reduce the chance that our army is "all in" is good.

I think the suggested Maces 2W of Akhetaten may be viewed by Hatse as a threat, and we are trying to avoid looking like a threat. If there's not enough road network to allow the 2-movement missionary to duck in and out each turn, consider sending a worker (to move, or to build a road) or a spy for tile vision, or just withdraw all our units and rely on pure muscle once we DOW. If we succeed in getting her to defend Akhetaten less strongly then our stack will be fine. If we don't succeed, scouting that won't help us either.

Crabsville should complete LB this turn by working a Gmine

Opening few sentences of PPP are misleading and/or superseded, so perhaps strike them out so people understand you better.