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Old Jan 08, 2012, 05:09 PM   #1
Zeebie
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Strange DoWs

I've noticed an odd pattern to AI DoWs:
- Example 1: I am at peace with everyone. France declares war on Persia. Persia declares war on me. This exact sequence happened three times, while I was friendly with both Persia and France.
- Example 2: I am at peace with everyone. Mongolia is at war with England. Mongolia declares war on me. Then England declares war on me.

In both of these situations, it seems that the AI went out of its way to make a war more difficult for no benefit. Am I missing some hidden strategy that makes sense of this sort of thing?
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Old Jan 08, 2012, 10:52 PM   #2
PhilBowles
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Originally Posted by Zeebie View Post
I've noticed an odd pattern to AI DoWs:
- Example 1: I am at peace with everyone. France declares war on Persia. Persia declares war on me. This exact sequence happened three times, while I was friendly with both Persia and France.
- Example 2: I am at peace with everyone. Mongolia is at war with England. Mongolia declares war on me. Then England declares war on me.

In both of these situations, it seems that the AI went out of its way to make a war more difficult for no benefit. Am I missing some hidden strategy that makes sense of this sort of thing?
The AI civ may calculate that if you're already at war, you will be more vulnerable to its own attacks - alternatively is it possible that those two civs had a 'declare war' agreement against you?

Also, if these are the later game stages and you're in the lead, expect to have anyone in reach declare war on you at some stage. I just finished a game where even the civ I'd been friendliest with through most of the game declared war, apparently in an effort to deny me city-states for my diplomatic victory (they weren't in a position to attack my territory and didn't actually try - the main battles were over Stockholm, Brussels and, at the very end, the enemy capital Karakorum).
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Old Jan 09, 2012, 02:02 AM   #3
Hammer Rabbi
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this isnt exactly on topic, but none of what just happened to me makes sense. strange DoWs indeed.

playing babylon/immortal/standard continents. placed right next to Russia and Persia and 1 CS, Sidon. Darius is expanding rapidly. Has a 4th city just as i was getting out of classical era and i had 1 settled. Catherine seeks a joint DoW cuz he's expanding. I agree to join it in 10 turns cuz he's taken up very limited land leaving me in a tundra area that sucks for growth. Ive researched bowman and gotten wall of bab first thing because i know immortal is very offensive so i churned a few more out. Catherine did nothing bringing no units. took Darius's 4th city (Ectabana) with 6 bow and a spear, made a puppet, then proceeded to his next city. (this is all in early BC.) Catherine, still no units or anything and we had open borders. i proceed to take his his 3rd city (Susa) with the same 7 units with a GG added. I asked Catherine for a DoF and she declined. I decide to make peace since Russias not helping. During peacetime, Catherine settles 2 cities next me, becomes allies with Sidon right next to me, moves all her units into my open borders, DoWs just after my peace treaty with Darius concludes and Darius DoWs right then too. Sidon had 7 units (7? for a CS in the BCs??) attacking me plus Catherines chariot archers, a trebuchet, and some longswordsman, and Darius' slew (10+ units) of pikemen and archers. in all more than 30 units from 3 different armies suddenly send everything full bore.

i could have defended and handled any one of them alone. it would have been costly but thats expected. but all 3? with that big of a force?

Is this how immortal is supposed to be? All of this was still in BC. I had maybe 12 total army units, 10 bowman, a scout and spearman. and that was producing bowman with 2 cities and nothing like supplemental buildings like monuments and crap. (the two persian cities i took had no production and pops of 2 and 4 so they didnt help). and i purchased 3 bowman with barb and exploration gold and only spent 110 gold on two tiles.

i really dont care if there is an explanation for that. its just really stupid that the AI can do that. it's like they had a secret pact to collude to take me out and yet i dont get that strategic option to play in this game. im pissed and im taking a break for a while. that is just purely awful AI.
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Old Jan 09, 2012, 04:41 AM   #4
apocalypse105
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this isnt exactly on topic, but none of what just happened to me makes sense. strange DoWs indeed.

playing babylon/immortal/standard continents. placed right next to Russia and Persia and 1 CS, Sidon. Darius is expanding rapidly. Has a 4th city just as i was getting out of classical era and i had 1 settled. Catherine seeks a joint DoW cuz he's expanding. I agree to join it in 10 turns cuz he's taken up very limited land leaving me in a tundra area that sucks for growth. Ive researched bowman and gotten wall of bab first thing because i know immortal is very offensive so i churned a few more out. Catherine did nothing bringing no units. took Darius's 4th city (Ectabana) with 6 bow and a spear, made a puppet, then proceeded to his next city. (this is all in early BC.) Catherine, still no units or anything and we had open borders. i proceed to take his his 3rd city (Susa) with the same 7 units with a GG added. I asked Catherine for a DoF and she declined. I decide to make peace since Russias not helping. During peacetime, Catherine settles 2 cities next me, becomes allies with Sidon right next to me, moves all her units into my open borders, DoWs just after my peace treaty with Darius concludes and Darius DoWs right then too. Sidon had 7 units (7? for a CS in the BCs??) attacking me plus Catherines chariot archers, a trebuchet, and some longswordsman, and Darius' slew (10+ units) of pikemen and archers. in all more than 30 units from 3 different armies suddenly send everything full bore.

i could have defended and handled any one of them alone. it would have been costly but thats expected. but all 3? with that big of a force?

Is this how immortal is supposed to be? All of this was still in BC. I had maybe 12 total army units, 10 bowman, a scout and spearman. and that was producing bowman with 2 cities and nothing like supplemental buildings like monuments and crap. (the two persian cities i took had no production and pops of 2 and 4 so they didnt help). and i purchased 3 bowman with barb and exploration gold and only spent 110 gold on two tiles.

i really dont care if there is an explanation for that. its just really stupid that the AI can do that. it's like they had a secret pact to collude to take me out and yet i dont get that strategic option to play in this game. im pissed and im taking a break for a while. that is just purely awful AI.
Ai is programmed to backstabb you in this case catherine let you decaler war on persia to make you're weaker and decalres on you bad game mechanic
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Old Jan 09, 2012, 05:59 AM   #5
Zeebie
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Originally Posted by PhilBowles View Post
The AI civ may calculate that if you're already at war, you will be more vulnerable to its own attacks - alternatively is it possible that those two civs had a 'declare war' agreement against you?
But I wasn't at war with anyone, and in both examples the other civs were at war with each other, making an agreement unlikely.
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Old Jan 09, 2012, 06:21 AM   #6
PhilBowles
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this isnt exactly on topic, but none of what just happened to me makes sense. strange DoWs indeed.

playing babylon/immortal/standard continents. placed right next to Russia and Persia and 1 CS, Sidon. Darius is expanding rapidly. Has a 4th city just as i was getting out of classical era and i had 1 settled. Catherine seeks a joint DoW cuz he's expanding. I agree to join it in 10 turns cuz he's taken up very limited land leaving me in a tundra area that sucks for growth. Ive researched bowman and gotten wall of bab first thing because i know immortal is very offensive so i churned a few more out. Catherine did nothing bringing no units. took Darius's 4th city (Ectabana) with 6 bow and a spear, made a puppet, then proceeded to his next city. (this is all in early BC.) Catherine, still no units or anything and we had open borders. i proceed to take his his 3rd city (Susa) with the same 7 units with a GG added. I asked Catherine for a DoF and she declined. I decide to make peace since Russias not helping. During peacetime, Catherine settles 2 cities next me, becomes allies with Sidon right next to me, moves all her units into my open borders, DoWs just after my peace treaty with Darius concludes and Darius DoWs right then too. Sidon had 7 units (7? for a CS in the BCs??) attacking me plus Catherines chariot archers, a trebuchet, and some longswordsman, and Darius' slew (10+ units) of pikemen and archers. in all more than 30 units from 3 different armies suddenly send everything full bore.

i could have defended and handled any one of them alone. it would have been costly but thats expected. but all 3? with that big of a force?

Is this how immortal is supposed to be? All of this was still in BC. I had maybe 12 total army units, 10 bowman, a scout and spearman. and that was producing bowman with 2 cities and nothing like supplemental buildings like monuments and crap. (the two persian cities i took had no production and pops of 2 and 4 so they didnt help). and i purchased 3 bowman with barb and exploration gold and only spent 110 gold on two tiles.

i really dont care if there is an explanation for that. its just really stupid that the AI can do that. it's like they had a secret pact to collude to take me out and yet i dont get that strategic option to play in this game. im pissed and im taking a break for a while. that is just purely awful AI.
Don't know that it's an Immortal thing -it's only happened to me once that I was the subject of an early 'world war', but that was on King. It played out in the way you describe (I did keep Persia, my DoW partner, on side, but was backstabbed by England). I'm wary of accepting when an AI asks me to declare war unless I know I can handle it, since they quite often seem to use that as a way of tying up yours and a rival's resources, and will declare peace themselves at the first opportunity (really, if you make a joint war dec, there should be a corresponding joint peace dec option).

Also, I think the AI generally declares war on its own initiative with a specific objective in mind. If it's brought into a war with a joint war dec from you, it probably doesn't have a plan for what to do and may just do it in order to win favour with you. In that case I wouldn't count on getting any help from them.
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Old Jan 09, 2012, 09:47 AM   #7
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I will tell you what the problem is And If anybody has a good argument that this is a good mechanic let it hear because I believe its not!!!!!!!!!

The AI makes his war decission on military strenght thats why you see so uselesss wars between AI's and you. (Or if you just destroyed a AI someones army everyone dows the person)




Unlike in civ 4 where the AI declares war on someone who He hates(and is close) because of certain flavors for example : aztecs,vikings,mongols have a low peace rate so they mostly hate people with high peace rate.Or if someone is on a other religon this olso can create fire works..

(Note : I know this is not 100% true sometimes they choose to dow you like in lets play of elizabeth of TheMelnTeam but it isn't allways like that mostly warmongers )


However non of this is presented in civ 5 the AI just makes his decission on military strenght.

Thats why catherine declares war on me the early game and in the late game she wants to sign a decleration of friendship doesn't make sence at all.


There are positif modifiers in the game but they don't work at all the AI doesn't look at these when He decides to dow him.


Obiously the system in civ 4 was more predictable but it worked and you didn't saw the AI bringing his self in trouble because of a lot of wars. They uselly make alwlays peace to someone if they have 2 wars
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Old Jan 09, 2012, 10:18 AM   #8
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This is because Civ V abolished the AI Civ IV rule of when already in a war footing against someone never accept a bribe to DOW someone else.

Yup; that rule should have been retained as it gets the AI in too much trouble.

As to why there are doing this against you, I suspect you don't have enough military units. AI appears to place more value on number of units than how advanced they are compared to a human.
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Old Jan 09, 2012, 10:56 AM   #9
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Ai is programmed to backstabb you in this case catherine let you decaler war on persia to make you're weaker and decalres on you bad game mechanic
my problem with it is we BOTH DoW'd in a joint effort. Then somehow they both DoW'd me in a separate effort. And being so early in the game i didnt lose a unit to Persia and my happiness didnt dip below 0 cuz i puppeted them (i had 2 luxes).

Persia's capitol was bigger than my army could have handled or i would have carried through to conquer him. And seeing Catherine settle 2 cities immediately during peace time while doing nothing during war time was a big concern.

again, i ramped up military to handle any one of them, but not both plus a CS with as big an army as Catherine.

i'm tempted to restart from the beginning just to wipe out Catherine and then quit.
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Old Jan 09, 2012, 11:01 AM   #10
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by apocalypse105 View Post
I will tell you what the problem is And If anybody has a good argument that this is a good mechanic let it hear because I believe its not!!!!!!!!!

The AI makes his war decission on military strenght thats why you see so uselesss wars between AI's and you. (Or if you just destroyed a AI someones army everyone dows the person)




Unlike in civ 4 where the AI declares war on someone who He hates(and is close) because of certain flavors for example : aztecs,vikings,mongols have a low peace rate so they mostly hate people with high peace rate.Or if someone is on a other religon this olso can create fire works..

(Note : I know this is not 100% true sometimes they choose to dow you like in lets play of elizabeth of TheMelnTeam but it isn't allways like that mostly warmongers )


However non of this is presented in civ 5 the AI just makes his decission on military strenght.

Thats why catherine declares war on me the early game and in the late game she wants to sign a decleration of friendship doesn't make sence at all.
All of the above does happen, however it tends to happen mainly if you aren't actively engaging in diplomacy. I've had DoWs from AIs that can't beat me based on military strength if they have a particular objective or need to stop you getting too far ahead. I've also maintained peace with militarily far superior civs (Mongolia for most of my last game, for instance).

There are certainly serious problems with the diplomacy AI, however it works better if you don't treat it like the Civ IV AI where you do something (such as adopt the same religion) and you get a set of +s and -s that will remain the same forever more; relations change in Civ V because of the actions of both you and other civs, and usually these changes are negative. You don't have control over who will denounce you, but a denouncement will have a negative effect on anyone who doesn't dislike the denouncer (even your friends). Most actions that relate to victory conditions - including settling new cities, competing for city-state favour (especially if you displace their existing ally), completing wonders another civ wants and aiming for the same victory type - will negatively affect relations with someone. "We've been to war in the past" can be a neutral effect or a negative modifier based on whether the AI dislikes you for other reasons.

All of this is fine, the trouble is that while a lot of these are unavoidable (and how do you know which wonders the other civ wants?), there are very few ways of mitigating these affects or gaining positive modifiers that can compensate. It's this imbalance which makes civs hostile disproportionately often.

In my case with Mongolia, I maintained peace until it became clear to the AI late in the game that they had no other way of stopping me from winning than to attack my city-state allies. Mongolia was not after a diplomatic victory (or to deny me one) for most of the game and so was not interested in CSes. We apparently had no wonders in common. They were the other side of various city states from me. I denounced the same leaders, and made a point of noting who they were denouncing so I could follow suit. We both fought Japan (independently). We declared friendship with each other and I provided favourable trades. Which worked, but the downside is that the majority of these were not directly, or even indirectly, under my control.
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Old Jan 09, 2012, 02:45 PM   #11
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I had a game where I was playing as arabia. I started next to Washington so I decided to stay friendly with him. Bismarc is also near me and America. During my game I got 5 different countries in a row to ask me to attack Bismarc but I said no. The next turn America asked so I did go to war to stay on his good side. Right after I declared war, all of the countires that asked me to go to war with them denounced me. Then everyone started to DoW on each other. It was a mass free for all.
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Old Jan 09, 2012, 03:04 PM   #12
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germany is my least favorite civ to play against. i can only bear them when they are on another continent to start. several civs are irritating, but they have vexed me more than others.
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Old Jan 09, 2012, 06:03 PM   #13
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I find if I have a huge pot of gold, no one declares war on me. Even with a tiny army. Oh, they'll taunt you. Denounce you. Do all sorts of things. But they just won't attack. As soon as my gold drops, BAM tons of units at my border and next turn, it's war. If you have a decent army and tons of gold, everyone's friendly until the end game.
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 10:24 AM   #14
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this isnt exactly on topic, but none of what just happened to me makes sense. strange DoWs indeed.

playing babylon/immortal/standard continents. placed right next to Russia and Persia and 1 CS, Sidon. Darius is expanding rapidly. Has a 4th city just as i was getting out of classical era and i had 1 settled. Catherine seeks a joint DoW cuz he's expanding. I agree to join it in 10 turns cuz he's taken up very limited land leaving me in a tundra area that sucks for growth. Ive researched bowman and gotten wall of bab first thing because i know immortal is very offensive so i churned a few more out. Catherine did nothing bringing no units. took Darius's 4th city (Ectabana) with 6 bow and a spear, made a puppet, then proceeded to his next city. (this is all in early BC.) Catherine, still no units or anything and we had open borders. i proceed to take his his 3rd city (Susa) with the same 7 units with a GG added. I asked Catherine for a DoF and she declined. I decide to make peace since Russias not helping. During peacetime, Catherine settles 2 cities next me, becomes allies with Sidon right next to me, moves all her units into my open borders, DoWs just after my peace treaty with Darius concludes and Darius DoWs right then too. Sidon had 7 units (7? for a CS in the BCs??) attacking me plus Catherines chariot archers, a trebuchet, and some longswordsman, and Darius' slew (10+ units) of pikemen and archers. in all more than 30 units from 3 different armies suddenly send everything full bore.

i could have defended and handled any one of them alone. it would have been costly but thats expected. but all 3? with that big of a force?

Is this how immortal is supposed to be? All of this was still in BC. I had maybe 12 total army units, 10 bowman, a scout and spearman. and that was producing bowman with 2 cities and nothing like supplemental buildings like monuments and crap. (the two persian cities i took had no production and pops of 2 and 4 so they didnt help). and i purchased 3 bowman with barb and exploration gold and only spent 110 gold on two tiles.

i really dont care if there is an explanation for that. its just really stupid that the AI can do that. it's like they had a secret pact to collude to take me out and yet i dont get that strategic option to play in this game. im pissed and im taking a break for a while. that is just purely awful AI.
It's about the balance of power. Persia seemed to be the biggest threat at first, so Russia was on your side in a temporary alignment of interests (i.e. containing Persia). When Cathy invited you to DOW Persia, what they wanted was your help in containing them. They did NOT want you to take over the Persian lands! Once you had taken a few cities, the balance of power changed dramatically. At that point Russia flip-flopped and allied Persia instead, because they saw you as the greater threat now. How to deal with this in-game:

1) recognize the difference between a real ally and a temporary one (i.e. distinguishing "fake friendly" from "real friendly".
2) recognize that some leaders have a high propensity to backstab, like Catherine, and that if the balance of power changes, it is quite likely to happen. Plan accordingly.
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 12:29 PM   #15
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In my current game, Germany is my closest neighbor. Not surprising, they've DOWed me three times so far, going 0 for 3.

This time though (unlike in the past) Bismark didn't try the pretend friendship thing but was very open about not liking me from the moment I met him.

Bismark is only still in the game since he offered me sufficient cash (and he still had sufficient strength left to be painful to attempt to dislodge).

My other neighbor, Elizabeth also DOWed me between Germany's 2nd and 3rd war. She got wiped off the planet.

Its normally going to be your neighbors that are most irritating. Later in the game, civs far away may also DOW you, but attacks from them are easier to beat off.

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germany is my least favorite civ to play against. i can only bear them when they are on another continent to start. several civs are irritating, but they have vexed me more than others.
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 12:32 PM   #16
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That's in part because the AI also values gold reserves in the military equation.
(Makes sense as you can rush buy units with the gold reserves)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorlath View Post
I find if I have a huge pot of gold, no one declares war on me. Even with a tiny army. Oh, they'll taunt you. Denounce you. Do all sorts of things. But they just won't attack. As soon as my gold drops, BAM tons of units at my border and next turn, it's war. If you have a decent army and tons of gold, everyone's friendly until the end game.
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 01:09 PM   #17
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That's in part because the AI also values gold reserves in the military equation.
(Makes sense as you can rush buy units with the gold reserves)


True but He should not makes his DOWs decission only on this .

Because you get situation where diplomacy looks fine and The AI wants decleration of friendship but suddenly you're archer get killed or you buy a building and they all go war.

There are no other flavors/decission factors the AI use when they go to war the positif modifiers mostly mean nothing.
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Old Jan 10, 2012, 10:34 PM   #18
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Recently, I have had several games where the AIs DoW me, never once steps foot on my land (often they stand at the border in a staring contest), then 10-20 turns later they offer a peace deal (a fair one, not the usual `give me everything' one).

I also find it hilarious when they want everything you own for peace, even though you wiped out their entire army for no loss and could reach their capital in a turn or two. Seriously, the AI would be better if it just rolled random numbers to decide what it did!
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 06:19 AM   #19
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Recently, I have had several games where the AIs DoW me, never once steps foot on my land (often they stand at the border in a staring contest), then 10-20 turns later they offer a peace deal (a fair one, not the usual `give me everything' one).

I also find it hilarious when they want everything you own for peace, even though you wiped out their entire army for no loss and could reach their capital in a turn or two. Seriously, the AI would be better if it just rolled random numbers to decide what it did!
In my last game, Genghis offered a deal whereby I'd pay him for peace ... the turn after I captured Karakorum.

I think they probably determine the deal partly on the basis of relative scores, even though this doesn't relate to battlefield success - so as long as Mongolia has a similar or higher score, it thinks it can get away with ridiculous demands.
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 06:35 AM   #20
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I once had the other 9 players denounce me on the same turn. I have no idea what I did toearn the anger.

It was funny though to see them all pop up one after the other.
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